Treasures of Galápagos [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

4) are there gonna be starting points?

bryguy....i get very pissed off with people who don't read map instructions

doesn't it say below that each player starts diving. is that too cryptic for you to understand, and why can't you go back and read through some of the discussions on the thread to understand where this map has come from...is that too much to ask before you go asking questions like this?

[gimil]

Easy their tiger. Lets not start a bitching session yeah

[cairnswk]

Easy their tiger. Lets not start a bitching session yeah

I'm not starting a bitching session here gimil....just asking certain people to read the bloody map

[gimil]

bryguy....i get very pissed off with people who don't read map instructions

doesn't it say below that each player starts diving. is that too cryptic for you to understand, and why can't you go back and read through some of the discussions on the thread to understand where this map has come from...is that too much to ask before you go asking questions like this?

[

Just chill out bud

[cairnswk]

bryguy....i get very pissed off with people who don't read map instructions

doesn't it say below that each player starts diving. is that too cryptic for you to understand, and why can't you go back and read through some of the discussions on the thread to understand where this map has come from...is that too much to ask before you go asking questions like this?

Just chill out bud

oh i'll chill out alright gimil, when people don't ask such stupid questions when the answer is right in front of them

must be something in the air today

[gimil]

bryguy....i get very pissed off with people who don't read map instructions

doesn't it say below that each player starts diving. is that too cryptic for you to understand, and why can't you go back and read through some of the discussions on the thread to understand where this map has come from...is that too much to ask before you go asking questions like this?

Just chill out bud

oh i'll chill out alright gimil, when people don't ask such stupid questions when the answer is right in front of them

must be something in the air today

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=42458&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Its there for a reson cairns

[cairnswk]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=42458&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Its there for a reson cairns

yes and i appreciate your attempts to vent....but this doesn't get the message through to poster who can't read that vent topic.
And yes, i can be nasty at times. but i would expect that posters at least give the mapmakers some courtesy and read what the instructions are on the maps and try to interpret these instructions before asking stupid questions.

[cairnswk]

congratz on getting this stickied

Thank you

edit:
1) i like the colors, makes it seem like your underwater

Kewl!

2) the sharks are a nice effect, but the reefs could use better graphix

Nobody has mentioned the reef graphics except you....! Seems they're fine to everyone else

3) it looks like there is a banana behind the turtle on pinta....

I'll adjust that a little

4) are there gonna be starting points?

Already targeted for an answer

5) some of the strange blue circles are circular, some are ovular/oval like (wow ovular is a real word?)

are you sure you meant ovular?

From dictionary.com

ov·u·lar
–adjective
pertaining to or of the nature of an ovule.

o·vule
n.
1. Botany A minute structure in seed plants, containing the embryo sac and surrounded by the nucellus, that develops into a seed after fertilization.
2. Zoology A small or immature ovum.

ovular
adjective
1. being or of the nature of an ovule
2. of or relating to an ovum

6) on that note, some of the blue ovals/circles are really pixely.... make that all of them

yes that's because they all have a grain texture outline, but i'll look into that and change for you.

7) why are snorkels -1?

Because when you go diving on reefs, you use some resources like water and food in order to stay diving. it is also another tactic - because snorkels are a combined bonus structure, it is a way that you have to ensure that your snorkel territories are kept alive.

8) is there any reel reason for the small reef that touches fe1/2 isabela norht and isabela? far as i can tell only fe2 can touch isabela north and isabela, and fe1 can attack isabela north

yes...to stop the 4-way corner that is there from gameplay.

9) the wording for the 'Gather treasures to assist your survival also' seems weird, why do u neeed to??

gathering treasures allows you to survive coz the treasures have bonuses attached to them!

[rocky mountain]

i noticed something... reefs 8 and 4 have an advantage in that they can go straight to a treasure only 1 territory away. that would give them a sooner advantage of +1 over those who have to go 2 spaces...

i'm sorry, but i don't know if anybody saw this...

[AndyDufresne]

So would you suggest swapping Pinzon with IS2 near Reef 4?
And swapping Espanola with ES1?

Or things similar?


--Andy

[bryguy]

Just chill out bud

oh i'll chill out alright gimil, when people don't ask such stupid questions when the answer is right in front of them

must be something in the air today

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=42458&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

Its there for a reson cairns

sorry cairns, i had looked at the whole map/read the entire legend but completely missed it.

btw whats the link for? it wont come up for me

keep up the good work cairns

[cairnswk]

i noticed something... reefs 8 and 4 have an advantage in that they can go straight to a treasure only 1 territory away. that would give them a sooner advantage of +1 over those who have to go 2 spaces...

i'm sorry, but i don't know if anybody saw this...

Reef 8 fixed with territory intervention
Reef 4 fixed with increase in army number on Pinzon.

sorry cairns, i had looked at the whole map/read the entire legend but completely missed it.

And i am sorry for going off the brain bryguy, but sometimes it happens too often that this very aspect arises even in gameplay....we go to a lot of trouble to place instructions on the maps for everyone to be on the same page so-to-speak.

So would you suggest swapping Pinzon with IS2 near Reef 4?
And swapping Espanola with ES1?
Or things similar?
--Andy

Rather than move the islands Andy which just wouldn't be kocher i have made some alternative arrangements in the Version 17 below.

Now every reef is three terts away (10 armies) from water sources except reef 4 which is two terts away (12 armies) so there is no disadvantage.

[edbeard]

I think this is better. But, bad dice at the beginning will be killer in this game since you're only getting two per turn. But, it doesn't seem too difficult to get bonuses. In terms of most neutral counts, starting armies,and bonuses, I think you've got things done correctly.

What I think needs to change is some territory arrangement and balancing.

1. Water Territories

BTW, Reef 4 and 7 are two away from that water only needing to kill seven armies from two territories to get it. (maybe just add a few more neutrals to the water?)

Also, reef 3 is 8 armies away from Genovesa. Reef 6 is 7 armies away from Tortuga (reef 5 is only 9 armies away from Tortuga).

There's also a couple of spots where from one reef you have 2, 3, 5 to take a water. But, another reef only has a 2, 2, 5.

I'm not sure if all this matters but you said, "Now every reef is three terts away (10 armies) from water sources except reef 4 which is two terts away (12 armies) so there is no disadvantage." So I just want to make sure you realize this is not the case.


2. Reef 1 / 8

figuring out how to get Reef 1 and Reef 8 to be 'partners' like every other Reef has. (5 and 6, 4 and 7, 2 and 3. all of those will be fighting over the same spots). Those two reefs just have free reign to pick up bonus territories. No other reefs will go after Darwin, Wolf or Espanola. Everyone else has territories that are contested.

Those two reefs are by themselves. I think it's clearly advantageous to start at them. If some type of strong current or something can connect them that might solve that issue for me. Maybe san cristobal and darwin have a 'strong current' connection. Actually, I don't really like that spot. But, I think some rearranging of territories there might solve that issue.



Maybe someone has a good argument to defend the gameplay as it is now though?


(maybe after your next update or right now, get people from chat to come in and look at the map for gameplay balancing and to get discussion going)

[cairnswk]

I think this is better. But, bad dice at the beginning will be killer in this game since you're only getting two per turn. But, it doesn't seem too difficult to get bonuses. In terms of most neutral counts, starting armies,and bonuses, I think you've got things done correctly.

What I think needs to change is some territory arrangement and balancing.

1. Water Territories

BTW, Reef 4 and 7 are two away from that water only needing to kill seven armies from two territories to get it. (maybe just add a few more neutrals to the water?)

Also, reef 3 is 8 armies away from Genovesa. Reef 6 is 7 armies away from Tortuga (reef 5 is only 9 armies away from Tortuga).

There's also a couple of spots where from one reef you have 2, 3, 5 to take a water. But, another reef only has a 2, 2, 5.

I'm not sure if all this matters but you said, "Now every reef is three terts away (10 armies) from water sources except reef 4 which is two terts away (12 armies) so there is no disadvantage." So I just want to make sure you realize this is not the case.


2. Reef 1 / 8

figuring out how to get Reef 1 and Reef 8 to be 'partners' like every other Reef has. (5 and 6, 4 and 7, 2 and 3. all of those will be fighting over the same spots). Those two reefs just have free reign to pick up bonus territories. No other reefs will go after Darwin, Wolf or Espanola. Everyone else has territories that are contested.

Those two reefs are by themselves. I think it's clearly advantageous to start at them. If some type of strong current or something can connect them that might solve that issue for me. Maybe san cristobal and darwin have a 'strong current' connection. Actually, I don't really like that spot. But, I think some rearranging of territories there might solve that issue.



Maybe someone has a good argument to defend the gameplay as it is now though?


(maybe after your next update or right now, get people from chat to come in and look at the map for gameplay balancing and to get discussion going)

Edbeard, appreciate your input on this, but i think that as long as the islands exist in the real geopgraphical layout that they are, there is always going to be someone who is more disadvantaged because of some reason that others.

I really don't have the want or wherefores to keep going around in circles on this one so I am putting it in vacataion until suck time as i feel like tackling it again.
Maybe is will start all over again.

[edbeard]

well I hope you can at least wait a bit for some feedback

I'll get some people in here to talk gameplay

[cairnswk]

well I hope you can at least wait a bit for some feedback

I'll get some people in here to talk gameplay

no please....i am not in happy mood at present....i have lost patience with the map because whatever i do someone is going to find something wrong with it....as has been pointed out it is so unbalanced and i am not in the mood to fix it right now...
so leave it go and i'll get back into it again after june or sometime then.

[edbeard]

well I just called for a driveby haha

lets see if I can delete a topic I made

[cairnswk]

well I just called for a driveby haha

lets see if I can delete a topic I made

edbeard i have no objection to a driveby, but the simple fact is that i am going on hols to sydney for a week in the next few days, and i won't be back to the maps until after the 13th.
So please save the driveby until then,in you still want it.

this arvo i am going to put my feet up, enjoy some pumpkin chicken & vege soup and and watch the 4 hour epic Cleopatra with Liz, Dickie and Rex.

[cairnswk]

well I hope you can at least wait a bit for some feedback

I'll get some people in here to talk gameplay

OK...i have re-analysed (after clearing my head) the Reef to Water situation, i used this because it has the highest bonus and people may want to go for this first.
The new version 18 is below....now after my last fiasco, this one should be correct as analysed in the s/sheet layout under the map.

Code: Select all

Analysis of Reefs to Water               
Territory -> Water               Ttl
Reef 1 -> Wolf   2   4   4   0   10
Reef 1 -> Pinta   2   2   6   0   10
Reef 2 -> Pinta   2   2   6   0   10
Reef 2 -> Genovesa   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 2 -> Santiago   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 2 -> Wolf   2   4   4   0   10
Reef 3 -> Genovesa   3   2   5   0   10
Reef 3 -> Santa Cruz   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 4 -> Santa Cruz   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 4 -> Santiago (up)   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 4 -> Santiago (down)   2   2   1   5   10
Reef 5 -> Isabela West   2   4   4   0   10
Reef 5 -> Tortuga   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 6 -> Tortuga   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 6 -> Santa Cruz   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 7 -> Santa Cruz   2   3   5   0   10
Reef 7 -> San Cristobal   2   2   6   0   10
Reef 7 -> Espanola   2   2   6   0   10
Reef 8 -> San Cristobal   2   2   6   0   10
Reef 8 -> Espanola   2   2   6   0   10

[DiM]

glad to see this is back on track cause i like the idea. i haven't paid much attention to it unfortunatelly cause the time has been really scarce but now i have a few minutes so here i go.
first of all sorry if i'm talking about previously discussed things. just ignore me if that's the case.

1. what's so2?? and how do you connect to it??
2. on the legend there's no mention of the bonus for number of terits so i assume that it's the normal 1 army for 3 terits. if that's the case then every player starts with 8 presses begin turn and drops to 7 deploys 3 and has 10. first thought that comes to mind is Kill an opponent. while in a normal game it might not be wise to do it as you'll only stretch thin and get another -1, in assassin games it might be a winner if your target is close. and the biggest concern is Reef 6 vs Reef 7. we have 2 scenarios.

A. i'm in R6 and my target is in R7. i start game. deploy and now i need to kill 2,2,8. with 10 armies i believe it is possible. round 1 game over
B. i'm in R6 and my target is in R7. this time R7 starts the game. he tries to take a terit but rolls twice crappy dice. so he drops from 10 to 6. or even lower if he continues. but let's assume he has the decency and brains to stop. now i go after him and only have to kill 2,2,6 with my 10 armies. and if the other guy was silly i might even have to kill 2,2,1. huge chances of game being over in round 1.

unfortunately the solution to this issue will not be simple. if you increase the number of neutrals then you might have boring games where people can't get off the reefs. if you increase the starting armies hoping for better defence it still doesn't solve anything.

i see 3 possibilities:

a. reduce the number of starting locations to 6. this would give more space between players and avoid early eliminations
b. increase the number of terits. i don't know where you could squeeze them but you do need to get more space between players
c. make each player have 2 starting locations. this would probably be the easiest to implement as you don't need extra terits. this would mean early eliminations are impossible as it would give people a backup. problem is it's not very realistic (i mean you go diving from 1 location not from 2 at the same time). and a second problem is that you could still have early eliminations but only on team games. 1 player goes for a terit and another goes for the other terit.

[cairnswk]

Thanks for your comments DiM. an incentive for me to provide further analysis

glad to see this is back on track cause i like the idea. i haven't paid much attention to it unfortunatelly cause the time has been really scarce but now i have a few minutes so here i go.
first of all sorry if i'm talking about previously discussed things. just ignore me if that's the case.

1. what's so2?? and how do you connect to it??

garbage move out there and not deleted

....
i see 3 possibilities:

a. reduce the number of starting locations to 6. this would give more space between players and avoid early eliminations
b. increase the number of terits. i don't know where you could squeeze them but you do need to get more space between players
c. make each player have 2 starting locations. this would probably be the easiest to implement as you don't need extra terits. this would mean early eliminations are impossible as it would give people a backup. problem is it's not very realistic (i mean you go diving from 1 location not from 2 at the same time). and a second problem is that you could still have early eliminations but only on team games. 1 player goes for a terit and another goes for the other terit.

a. taken up, starting number is now 6. there is not one spot on the map where the next attack is higher than 2 so that should be OK.
b. new terits placed near Santa Fe between Reef 6 and reef 7.
c. not in favour of having two starting positions, kind of defeats the purpose of the entire gameplay. instead of giving set starting positions i would also prefer to rely on the luck of the drop.

An analysis below of the Reef to Reef attack lines shows that the values between Reef 6 & 7 is now 12....more than adequate if you decide to take a player out.

Reef to Reef Analysis Ttl
Reef 1 -> Reef 2 2 2 4 2 6 16
Reef 2 -> Reef 3 2 3 2 6 0 13
Reef 4 -> Reef 4 2 3 2 6 0 13
Reef 2 -> Reef 4 2 3 2 6 0 13
Reef 4 -> Reef 6 2 4 2 6 0 14
Reef 6 -> Reef 7 3 3 6 0 0 12
Reef 5 -> Reef 6 2 3 3 2 6 16
Reef 7 -> Reef 8 3 2 2 6 0 13

[DiM]

actually at point a i said to reduce the number of starting locations not the number of the armies on the starting locations

so instead of having 8 cramped reefs close together to have just 6 reefs with more space between them.

but i guess reducing armies to 6 and adding more terits is good too.

at a first glance everything seems to be fine at the moment. i'll have to take a closer look but i don't have time now. will do later.

glad you're not abandoning this one. i like it

[cairnswk]

actually at point a i said to reduce the number of starting locations not the number of the armies on the starting locations

so instead of having 8 cramped reefs close together to have just 6 reefs with more space between them.
...

But Dim...there is possibility of 8 player games now so setting the starting locations for less than that eliminates 2 entire groups of games - 7 & 8 players, not to mention the doubles and quadruples. why would one want to do that?

[edbeard]

all I know is that I don't want to start at reef 3

I'm battling over Marchena with reef 2

I'm battling over Lugger Genocruz (which only has 3 armies for some reason?) with reef 4 AND reef 7

compare it's location with reef 1. man it's a totally different world for the player that starts there.


I keep going back and forth over this. On one hand the idea is great and gameplay is quite good. On the other hand, it's very unbalanced.



I really like the map and want to see it quenched eventually. But, at the moment I'm not sure quite how to make it balanced without doing some type of overhaul. We need more ideas and directed discussion as to how to balance the starting points.

[cairnswk]

all I know is that I don't want to start at reef 3
I'm battling over Marchena with reef 2
I'm battling over Lugger Genocruz (which only has 3 armies for some reason?) with reef 4 AND reef 7
compare it's location with reef 1. man it's a totally different world for the player that starts there.
I keep going back and forth over this. On one hand the idea is great and gameplay is quite good. On the other hand, it's very unbalanced.
I really like the map and want to see it quenched eventually. But, at the moment I'm not sure quite how to make it balanced without doing some type of overhaul. We need more ideas and directed discussion as to how to balance the starting points.

OK...version 20
Changes:
1. moved lugger genocruz so it isn't in the way of getting too much bonus from reef 3 to Santa Cruz
2. moved lugger cristocruz so it isn't too close to reef 3 getting two lugger bonuses on way to conquer santa cruz
3. changed SC1 to 3 armies to keep balance there
4. moved treasure from santa fe to santa cruz to help blanace bonuses
5. another alanysis below shows that the attack routes from reef to water with bonuses enroute are fairly balanced.
Getting anything outside of those bonuses will be risky with armies and you're going to have to stop before conquering all the way if you want other bonuses.

I think the map is well balanced right now.

of course reef 4 and 7 are totally different worlds from reef 1 but then so is reef 5 and all that space around isabela.

Bonus Analysis
Reef 1 - Wolf 10 to conquer
Bonuses 4 water & snorkel
1 Darwin Treasure
5 total
Reef 1 - Pinta 10 to conquer
Bonuses 4 water & snorkel
1 Pinta Treasure
5 total
Reef 2 - Wolf 10 to conquer
Bonuses 4 water & snorkel
4 total
Reef 2 - Pinta 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 Pinta Treasure
5 total
Reef 2 - Genovesa 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 Marchena treasure
5 total
Reef 2 - Santiago 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
0 treasure
4 total
Reef 3 - Genovesa 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 Marchena treasure
5 total
Reef 3 - Santa Cruz 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
2 lugger
3 lugger & snorkel
9 total
Remedy a move lugger Genocruz
b treasure on Santa Cruz
After Remedy 4 water & snorkel
1 Santa Cruz treasure
5 total
Reef 4 - Santa Cruz 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 Santa Cruz treasure
5 total
Reef 4 - Santiago 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
0 treasure
4 total
Reef 5 - Isabela West 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 Isabela easst treasure
5 total
Reef 5 - Tortuga 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
0 treasure
4 total
Reef 6 - Tortuga 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
0 treasure
4 total
11 to conquer and add Floreana +1 bonus
Reef 6 - Santa Cruz 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Santa Cruz
5 total
Reef 7 - Santa Cruz 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Santa Cruz
5 total
Reef 7 - San Cristobal 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Santa Cristobal
5 total
Reef 7 - Espanola 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Espanola
5 total
Reef 8 - San Cristobal 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Espanola
5 total
Reef 8 - Espanola 10 to conquer
4 water & snorkel
1 treasure Espanola
5 total