[Official] Montreal REVAMP [Quenched]

[WidowMakers]

I have been working with RockSolid for over a week. Here are my initial drafts of the large and small.

RockSolid has specific requirements:
*keeping the colors the same for both the lakes water and the territories.
*No army circles
*He wants the feel of the map to be the same just touched up and updated.
*He was very specific about maintaining the borders of teh territories to be as close as possible to the actual municipalities.

Changes:
The original Montreal map had several 4 way corners
1) Beaconsfield/Kirkland/Baie d'Urfe/Ste-Anne,
2) Plateau/Hochelaga/Rosemont/Downtown, and
3) Anjou/St-Leonard/Riviere-des-Prairies/Mtl-Nord

Those have been eliminated and now are:
1)Kirkland now borders Baie d'Urfe (minimum impact on movement. This was the prefered border fo RockSolid)
2)Plateau now borders Hochelaga (this does not impact gameplay becasue Platue only borders Rosemont and Downtown. If Downtown were to border Rosemont, the movement throught Ville-Marie would be affected.
3)St-Leonard now borders Riviere-des-Prairies (This arrangement keeps the number of border territories the same. Connecting Anjou and Mtl-Nord would have increased the borders of Bout de I'lle by 1.)

I talked about the 4 way corners and adjusted them, as posted above, to RockSolid's liking.

Here are the Draft Versions:
Large



Small



XML is unchanged except for the edited 4-ways and coordinates of the new numbers. The current numbers are just placeholders to show intent.

[AndyDufresne]

This thread is indeed official, and endorsed.


--Andy

[jnd94]

Wow, it looks great!

[d.gishman]

wow, looks great already, looks like a nice tourist map. good job

[dominationnation]

can you change borders like that? I thought that lack said no to that because he didnt want any borders to have to change for someone in the middle of the game. Other than that it looks great!

[johloh]

yeah ive been busy the last few weeks...

would have atleast been considerate for someone to inform me that I was being taken off of working on an project...

gl with the map...

[cairnswk]

WM and RockSolid...congrats on this official revamp.
The map does look great, but i am concerned about the colours being TOO bright...a common cause for "eye distress". Can they be dulled a little without altering them too much?

[WidowMakers]

can you change borders like that? I thought that lack said no to that because he didnt want any borders to have to change for someone in the middle of the game. Other than that it looks great!

I realize that most revamps are not allowed to change anything but graphics. However, when talking with RockSoild I explained to him that 4-way corners are not liked very much in the foundry. We talked and he agreed that if the foundry thinks that 4-ways are bad for gameplay, then we could change them. I was just taking preventative measures since historically those 4-ways have been taken out of newer maps.

WM and RockSolid...congrats on this official revamp. Smile
The map does look great, but i am concerned about the colours being TOO bright...a common cause for "eye distress". Can they be dulled a little without altering them too much?

Here is the old map

I will try to get the colors back to these levels. RockSolid was very specific on the color choices. However, I am sure I can ton ethem down without affecting the color that much.

yeah ive been busy the last few weeks...

would have atleast been considerate for someone to inform me that I was being taken off of working on an project...

gl with the map...

Sorry. I was just looking for things to do and since I was already redoing the Circus Maximus, RockSolid asked if I wanted to do the Montreal map too. I was under the impression that you had stopped and it was free game. Believe me, if I knew you were still doing it, I would not have spent over a week making 5 drafts with RockSolid over email.

[hulmey]

Shouldnt map makers be given equal chance to RE-Vamp maps and at least people can offically apply to these maps...

The map foundry is not just one map and i think the community should be given a chance to re - vamp maps. This is very unfair.

This is not a dig at you Widow but we were told every1 would be apply to have a try at Re-Vamping

[WidowMakers]

Shouldnt map makers be given equal chance to RE-Vamp maps and at least people can offically apply to these maps...

The map foundry is not just one map and i think the community should be given a chance to re - vamp maps. This is very unfair.

This is not a dig at you Widow but we were told every1 would be apply to have a try at Re-Vamping

I agree with you hulmey. Here is what the original author had to say in the other post.

Haven't been around these parts in almost a year, so I'm a little out of touch with all this...

Hmm...an unfortunate miscommunication, from the looks of it. Johloh sent me his last draft a donkey's age ago, and when I replied voicing a lot of objections I had to elements of it, he didn't respond - that was about a month ago. I figured he was fed up with my requests for changes, and I assumed he abandoned the map. I mentioned this to Keyogi, which is how WidowMakers got involved, who had done excellent work on my other map (Circus Maximus).

Since then, WM's done some great work on Montreal, and I'm very happy with his version. Not to cast aspersions on Johloh's efforts, but I feel that WM's is far closer to being a revamp of the original map; Johloh's is a recasting (in the mould of San Francisco) rather than a revamping. WM's also gone to great pains to pay attention to detail (his borders follow the actual city borders, etc). At least half of the territory borders in Johloh's version need to be redrawn to be true to life.

There are still a couple of points where WM and I disagree - I wanted to keep the gameplay the same, while he wanted the intersecting borders to be less ambiguous - but that is material for a foundry thread, as I figured his opinion would be more popular than mine on that issue. But as far as which version I'd like to see go forward, I'm in favour of WM's.

Again there is nothing wrong with the revamp johloh did. When I saw it I thought it had good potential. However, since this is a revamp, the original author can and has set guidelines, those are the rules of the map. I did my initial draft and got over 2 full pages of issues and change requests from RockSolid. This map is more his idea with my graphics. I really only chose the size of the map and the different layout. He was very specific that this look like the original only better graphics.

Believe me there were plenty of things I wanted to change but was asked to put them back since they were straying away from the original intent of the current map.

Based on what RockSolid said, if Johloh wants to redo his and just do a cleanup graphics of the original with all of the guidelines in the first post of this thread, then lets have a vote.

[hulmey]

As far as im concerned im not backing you or joholo to do this map. My concern is that you now done 2 RE-Vamps out of 3 and that the whole foundry should be able to have a go.

Not only that the other map was also done by a moderator and my question again is let other map authors ahve a go.

You have outstanding talent and determination WM, no doubt about it but cant we see other map makers have a go at RE-vamping pls.

[DiM]

th colours wm used are problematic. i would like to see an image with random armies. red on red continent is hard to see and i'm sure there will be problems on blue green and yellow.

also i kinda liked the castle in downtown. any chance we'll see that in the revamp?

[DiM]

As far as im concerned im not backing you or joholo to do this map. My concern is that you now done 2 RE-Vamps out of 3 and that the whole foundry should be able to have a go.

Not only that the other map was also done by a moderator and my question again is let other map authors ahve a go.

You have outstanding talent and determination WM, no doubt about it but cant we see other map makers have a go at RE-vamping pls.

i see no problem in wm revamping everything if he wants to. i just don't like the lack of communication.

in my opinion johloh should have been announced especially since on the Revamp Developmental Atlas he is nominated as the revamper:

Revamp Developmental Atlas

Approved

* Circus Maximus
Nominated Cartographers: WidowMakers

Proposed

* Canada
Nominated Cartographers: Keredrex

* Indochina
Nominated Cartographers: Wisse

* Montreal
Nominated Cartographers: johloh

about 1 and a half months ago i was bored and started revamping montreal. i did the borders and the colouring and all that was needed was text and some effects. i pmd keyogi to ask him if i could tackle the gameplay and if me changing the 4 way borders was a problem and found out he was already working on a montreal revamp.
after i found out i'm not allowed to alter the gameplay i abandoned it. i don't mind but this is just another case of miscomunication, and after a quick change of pms keyogi said i should wait with any revamps i want to do until they announce an official revamp strategy. when that was announced i was under the impression it would be respected.

now the way i see the problem, johloh is the official revamper and wm just butted in. but it's now wm's fault since he talked to andy and got his approval.

now the question is, which revamp should be promoted? i personally like wm's version but since johloh was the first and nominated it would not be fair towards him because wm shouldn't have even started working on this one. tricky situation where i think the blame rests on the shoulders of the mods.

probably a voting should be done but regardless of the outcome some people will be pissed. that's for sure.

[Teya]

Shouldnt map makers be given equal chance to RE-Vamp maps and at least people can offically apply to these maps...

This was discussed in the unofficial revamp thread that keyogi started a while ago. He wanted to find out who wanted to revamp what, so he could contact the original cartographer for permission. Not many people put their hand up. Keyogi also wanted to limit how many maps 1 cartographer could revamp so they werent all done by the same person however the foundry disagreed with this and said If WM wants to revamp all the maps then let him.

Not only that the other map was also done by a moderator and my question again is let other map authors ahve a go.

Keyogi started the middle east revamp before he was made CA.

now the way i see the problem, johloh is the official revamper and wm just butted in. but it's now wm's fault since he talked to andy and got his approval.

If you read what rock solid wrote which WM quoted you will see that this is not the case.

tricky situation where i think the blame rests on the shoulders of the mods.

You are very quick to blame anything that goes wrong on the mods DiM
but if you read what RS wrote I think you'll find that if anyone is to blame it is Johloh. RS wasnt happy, Johloh never replied.

When it comes down to it, the final say does really come down to rock solid. If he wants WM to continue instead of Johloh Its not really the foundries place to complain. After all, rock solid can pull the pin on the revamp and not let anyone touch it.

[mibi]

looking good wm.

[DiM]

now the way i see the problem, johloh is the official revamper and wm just butted in. but it's now wm's fault since he talked to andy and got his approval.

If you read what rock solid wrote which WM quoted you will see that this is not the case.

tricky situation where i think the blame rests on the shoulders of the mods.

You are very quick to blame anything that goes wrong on the mods DiM
but if you read what RS wrote I think you'll find that if anyone is to blame it is Johloh. RS wasnt happy, Johloh never replied.

When it comes down to it, the final say does really come down to rock solid. If he wants WM to continue instead of Johloh Its not really the foundries place to complain. After all, rock solid can pull the pin on the revamp and not let anyone touch it.

wm carried his talks in private without announcing johloh. that's why i think the mods are to blame. it says in that thread johloh is nominated. it says nothing about wm.

that's the problem here. it was done on assumptions. people assumed johloh abandoned the map when in fact he didn't, johloh assumed he is the revamper when in fact wm was also working.

why i blame the mods? simple it's their job to keep the people involved constantly informed of any changes. johloh should have been announced and contacted again after he did not reply to the first request, wm should have been announced as the second revamper or as the substitute revamper. both these things should have been done by the mods and it's clear it's their fault.

they said the thread with the revamps will be updated constantly and anything else that appears without being there is unofficial. then wm comes with this version and it is official. he asked permission and he was granted so he's done nothing wrong. but i think in the spirit of the revamping thread the foundry should have been announced, johloh should have been announced.

[hulmey]

I agree with your there DiM, 100%. Also think that map makers should be limited to how many maps they are allowed to Re-Vamp so everyone has a go.

That said, i prefer WM map 100% more but still needs a little more work

[johloh]

no problem wm...its got nothing to do with you...i love your maps and its not an issue of anything you did.

Im just annoyed at the process. I was announced as the revamper whether it was official or not. I exchanged many emails probably like 10 with rocksolid as well as 4 drafts getting his opinions and implementing them. I even pmed a draft to keyogi showing him how it was going and letting him know that I had started and how it was looking.

I dont see any reason why you werent informed that I was already in the process and why I wasnt informed that you were taking over. I wasted a long time working on that map.

that being said, im not try to get you dumped off the map...and we have no need of a vote. im just being bitter and complaining.

[Kaplowitz]

I thought there was a rule that said that you can only revamp one map....

Either way, i dont think that johloh's time and hardwork should be wasted and that he has many reasons to be annoyed. I also think the widowmaker spent a lot of time on his map, and his should not be wasted either. Cant there just be two seperate threads, so that after both are compeletly FINISHED, we can vote. Obviously changes are going to be made because these maps were just shown to the foundry. Lets wait for the finished versions so that we can vote for the better map.

[johloh]

Cant there just be two seperate threads, so that after both are compeletly FINISHED, we can vote.

no way, that just means EVEN MORE wasted time.

theres nothing to vote, i have no problem with widow doing it now...im just annoyed at how the process worked.

[WidowMakers]

Sorry everyone for all of the confusion. I will not be doing any other revamps for a while. I want others to feel that they can also do them. Plus, I don't want anyone to think I am trying to hog everyone of them.

Well on to the map.

Here are the new updates with different colored armies. Let me know what ideas you have to improve the maps. Make sure they don't oppose teh rules that RockSolid gave me on page 1.

[RobinJ]

I'll put it like this: I might actually play the map now

[hulmey]

I think you could do a much better job with the bridges. They look quite out of place and unstylish for this map.

Also it would look good if all the sea/river names were like the fleve in the top right because of them are smalllblurred and unreadable.

Just a few suggestions to keep you going for now

[AndyDufresne]

It looks like Keyogi and I had a lack of communication regarding the REVAMPS before he left, as REVAMPS have been his 'project' in the Foundry.

When I received a message from WM and Rock saying they have been in contact, I assumed that he was the designated REVAMPER.

My apologies to Johloh and WM, and everyone else for the miscommunication.


--Andy

[johloh]

i agree with hulmeys comments and...

-bridges could look better
-the small river text is too small and unreadable...
-id remove rivere des praires, bajo de valois, and rapides or make them more readable somehow.
-im not sure i like the region font too much, but its not terrible, i think it could be more readable
-the impassible mine in the middle (borders mtlnord, stleonard,ahuntsic, and villeray) doesnt look very 'miney' to me. maybe change the graphic for it? make it more brown? something?
-also the graphic of the twin hills (where the cross is) could be better. i know you got the skills widow to make it look like two hills instead of a forest.

also i think the small map is way too big. i know people have been pushing the size limits lately, but the purpose of the small map is to help out people with low resolution monitors. i think making the big one at 820px is no big deal...but the small one at 738px is too big in my opinion. thats practically a 'large map'.