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gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby hideaway on Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:36 pm

before I know it I'm out of the game and someone has my cards. I'm pretty good at 2-5 person games but it seems like the more people get involved, the less I'm able to beat my expected win percentage. At 7 and 8 person games, I suck. I barely win 5% of the time.

How does the strategy change from a 5 to an 8 person game? I'm wondering if anyone can summarize the differences succinctly because I'm not sure I completely understand what I'm doing wrong. Does the focus shift from continent bonuses and attacking to merely fortification and survival for a few rounds?
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Postby Jeff Hardy on Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:37 pm

Don't attack others as much! It's normal not to lose most eight player games though.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby codeblue1018 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:46 pm

So do I. Don't get discouraged. The more you play different boards and settings, you will find a particular "type" of game that you excel at.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby hideaway on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:10 pm

codeblue1018 wrote:So do I. Don't get discouraged. The more you play different boards and settings, you will find a particular "type" of game that you excel at.


I actually excel at 3-person games. I win like 55% of the time I play 3-person games, but I don't seem to improve my score enough if I just play 3-person games, which I tried for a while. I sort of surmised that in order to really improve my rank I had to beat 8-person games, but I don't know the math behind the scoring system well enough to know if my hunch is correct.
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Postby Plutoman on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:16 pm

First of all - the more people, the less you win. That's a given.

Take your current win percentage on games with one opponent. Divide it by two. That should be around your win percentage for 4 player ffa games. At least, somewhere close. Take that, divide it again. That is probably how many 8 player games you will win.

Not very many, is it? You have to learn to expect something like that. Now, depending on how you play, it's likely fairly off from the actual percentage, but it gives you an estimate.

Now - first thing is first. Unless you only need one territory to gain a continent, skip attacking the first round. Deploy, make sure you stay alive. As, you can't win if your dead ;)

Depending on the situation, you might want to take one territory the second turn, to get a card. No cards, it still might be best to not attack. 3rd turn, you want to gain at least one territory, maybe a second. Start aiming to gather yourself into a continent area, but don't take the whole thing yet, unless you can easily hold it - it makes you a target for others to gang up on you.

Once you can take a continent without losing it immediately, do so - and reap the benefits. Expand like in a normal game, and try to eliminate players for cards, or if no cards, break bonuses of others. Essentially play it like a 4 way with you having a bonus, and a few neutrals spread around, the other small players that didn't get a good start.

Essentially, skip bonuses until you can definitely stay alive.
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Postby hideaway on Fri Mar 07, 2008 5:19 pm

Plutoman wrote:First of all - the more people, the less you win. That's a given.

Take your current win percentage on games with one opponent. Divide it by two. That should be around your win percentage for 4 player ffa games. At least, somewhere close. Take that, divide it again. That is probably how many 8 player games you will win.


Yeah, I know. I win 55% of my 3 player games, around 27% of my four player games and around 23% of my five player games. I should be winning at least 13-14% of my 8 player games. I win 6% of them thus far. This has to be a strategy leak in my opinion, or maybe just bad luck.

As for the rest of what you wrote, that's kind of what I figured. I think I'm too aggressive too early. Thanks for the advice!
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Postby gp24176281 on Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:10 pm

I can only add,

Play a fit map for the amount of players.

There aren't many maps that almost rule out luck in 8 players game. The smaller the map, the more luck is involved.

For 8 players games, play only huge maps (World, Waterloo, Actium and the like).

gl

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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby bonzifan on Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:09 pm

Strangely I seem to do well at 3 player games (about half) and 8 player games (half again)

yet I do terribly at 4 player games, having only won one.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby killmanic on Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:28 pm

If they are esc cards then the key is just to be able to chain kills perfectly.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby tracedout on Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:48 pm

what types of games are you playing, hideaway?

if it's no cards/flat rate you have to find a way to position yourself/allocate troops so you don't get attacked and if possible hold a continent. if it's escalating, well, that's easy. play to slay
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby Jagdpanther on Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:54 pm

If you have a poor starting position, I would suggest building up your armies until you can take and hold a continent for at least one turn. Then just build until you can take another bonus and/or eliminate a player.
Remember, patience pays off. Try to avoid back-and-forth battles and 'Cold War' build-ups.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby *manimal on Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:58 pm

Jagdpanther wrote:If you have a poor starting position, I would suggest building up your armies until you can take and hold a continent for at least one turn. Then just build until you can take another bonus and/or eliminate a player.
Remember, patience pays off. Try to avoid back-and-forth battles and 'Cold War' build-ups.

no dont go for conts in 8 player esp on classic that is the worse idea and barely ever pays off.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby FabledIntegral on Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:36 pm

hideaway wrote:before I know it I'm out of the game and someone has my cards. I'm pretty good at 2-5 person games but it seems like the more people get involved, the less I'm able to beat my expected win percentage. At 7 and 8 person games, I suck. I barely win 5% of the time.

How does the strategy change from a 5 to an 8 person game? I'm wondering if anyone can summarize the differences succinctly because I'm not sure I completely understand what I'm doing wrong. Does the focus shift from continent bonuses and attacking to merely fortification and survival for a few rounds?


Ok, considering if I'm trying I'll win about 45-50% of my 8-player games, possibly more when hot (one time I won 11/13 of them), I'll try to give my 2 cents. I'm going to explain a mostly freestyle strategy although it applies to sequential (and on Classic).

Step 1: Don't EVER go after a continent, unless it's Oceania or South America, and even then, only go if you have at LEAST 2 countries. Even if you have two countries, it would be best to try to get into better positioning (spread out your armies) then taking it. Having one country on Central America + one on Brazil would NOT constitute taking South America by the way.

Step 2: Early game, don't ever attack a country with 3 armies, unless you're in round 1 and taking Oceania/South America. In fact, don't even attack a country with 2 armies. Only attack single armies. There are multiple reasons for this. First is, why waste any more armies than you have to? Think about early game, how much is a card worth? A cash in of 4-8 most likely (if you're trying for a card it means you're going to be one of the first cashing). That means each card individually is worth 1/3 of the cash value, meaning that you're attacking other countries to get literally a card that's worth 1-2 armies. Only attack 1's.

Step 3: Get widespread. Try your best to fortify all your armies into one position. NEVER have 3's next to each other without fortifying unless you are planning on splitting in opposite ways (aka, having a 3 on China and a 3 on India. If you're moving the India towards the middle east, the China towards mongolia, it's fine). Try to spread yourself out as much as possible and as said, fortify 100% of your armies if possible. Do not leave 2's either, leave 1's only. No exceptions, unless you have a bonus card for the territory. Spreading yourself out is beneficial in two reasons. Firstly, it makes you harder to eliminate. If you're spread out, that means you're opponent has to be in all those locations as well to eliminate you. If your opponent was stupid and tried to take Africa, then he can kill you in Europe + South America maybe, but he can't get to you in North America or Oceania, thus making him have no reason to attack you in South America or Europe in teh first place. Secondly, being spread out makes it easier to wipe other people out.

Step 4: Don't kill people if you can't midcash. If you have 4 cards and an opponent has 3 cards and you know you can cash and eliminate him - don't unless he hardly has ANYTHING. You'll have to weigh the situation yourself, but chances are, 80% of the time, it won't benefit you. This is because you'll cash - waste your armies on green, then have 4 cards still. This makes it so everyone on the board thus turns their eyes to you. They see "oh this player has 4 cards and can't turn in any more armies, I should try to kill him and get 4 cards, especially because he's weak because he just used all his armies on green."

Step 5: Never end your turn early. Ending your turn early means multiple things. First, it means that you have one more card in your inventory. Going back to step 4, if that person with 3 cards ends his turn, he will then have 4 cards. Then it DOES become beneficial for you to kill him, so you can cash (down to 1 card), kill him, gain his 4 cards, and thus you have 5 cards and can midcash (therefore not dying, having more armies on the field than before, AND you have another cash).

Step 6: Never deploy early, even if you don't have a set. A big thing is psychology. If you have 4 cards, but no set, the others don't know that. They will take their time trying to kill you, they will have to judge whether it's worth it to THEM (if they have 4 cards, and cash to try to kill you, and then you DO have a set and cash, they just cashed early for no reason and only have 1 card and are in a shit position). Therefore, if you don't deploy, the opponent might not cash his set if he thinks you have one, simply because you might have a set as well. If you do deploy, it doesn't matter if you have a set or not, you can't cash, and he can eliminate you.

Step 6: Never try to eliminate a live 5. If someone has 5 cards, NEVER go for them if they've started their turn. They have a set no matter what, you will not be able to kill them before they cash, it's just stupid.

Step 7: When going after someone, flush them out for a set first. For example, if you have 4 cards and your opponent does as well and you ARE going for hte kill (hoping they have 2 pair), then flush our their set. What you do is you cash and deploy next to all their territories, and wait for them to cash. If they don't cash, continue probing them. DO NOT AUTO THEIR LARGE STACKS UNLESS SPEED IS NECESSARY OF THE SITUATION. Instead, use normal attack. hit him once or twice to understand his intention. He will either, in response, deploy his 3 armies because he knows you're killing him anyways, or cash armies, which will say "I do have a set, and now have enough armies so that you can't kill me." This way you didn't auto his stack, waste tons of armies yourself AND his, and then have him cash anyways (so that you still can't kill him).

Step 8: Let others do the work. Try to let others kill the opponent as much as possible and swipe in killing the last territory. Or if needed, block your opponent from letting him get to his opponent. For example if Green is killing Yellow across the map, and Yellow has a country in Oceania and South America, and green has a country in China and South America yet YOU do not, you could use a country on India for example to move a large amount of armies to Siam. This makes it so that he doesn't have enough armies on China to get to Yellow, and thus will stop his attacks. If he does kill yellow in South America like an idiot, you have positioning on Siam now to finish him. So therefore you're keeping him from killing yellow, and thus preventing him from gaining an advantage and sweeping.

There's other little things you'll learn, but it's a lot on strategy. This is of course assuming you're playing speed freestyle escalating, which is the most common gametype played if I'm correct, namely because RISK Hasbro was escalating on classic. Sequential still plays out the same game play with blocking, etc, except it's a little different because you then WANT to target people with 5 cards (because they can't cash!).

I've left out small things and obviously some things apply to freestyle rather than sequential but hope this helps.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby kletka on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:36 am

FabledIntegral wrote: Ok, considering if I'm trying I'll win about 45-50% of my 8-player games, possibly more when hot (one time I won 11/13 of them), I'll try to give my 2 cents. I'm going to explain a mostly freestyle strategy although it applies to sequential (and on Classic).


I know everything you told but still suck at 8-person escalating freestyle. This is what happens all the time :mrgreen: :arrow:

2008-05-20 11:45:13 - kletka cashed in a set of Yakutsk, Ontario, and Eastern Australia worth 20 armies
2008-05-20 11:45:16 - kletka deployed 23 armies on Western Australia
2008-05-20 11:45:18 - kletka attacked Eastern Australia from Western Australia and conquered it from deguu
2008-05-20 11:45:19 - maniacmath17 cashed in a set of Mongolia, Eastern United States, and Brazil worth 25 armies
2008-05-20 11:45:19 - maniacmath17 gets bonus of 2 armies added to Brazil
2008-05-20 11:45:20 - maniacmath17 deployed 28 armies on Brazil
2008-05-20 11:45:21 - maniacmath17 attacked North Africa from Brazil and conquered it from deguu
2008-05-20 11:45:22 - maniacmath17 gets a card
2008-05-20 11:45:25 - kletka ran out of time
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby FabledIntegral on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:38 am

kletka wrote:
FabledIntegral wrote: Ok, considering if I'm trying I'll win about 45-50% of my 8-player games, possibly more when hot (one time I won 11/13 of them), I'll try to give my 2 cents. I'm going to explain a mostly freestyle strategy although it applies to sequential (and on Classic).


I know everything you told but still suck at 8-person escalating freestyle. This is what happens all the time :mrgreen: :arrow:

2008-05-20 11:45:13 - kletka cashed in a set of Yakutsk, Ontario, and Eastern Australia worth 20 armies
2008-05-20 11:45:16 - kletka deployed 23 armies on Western Australia
2008-05-20 11:45:18 - kletka attacked Eastern Australia from Western Australia and conquered it from deguu
2008-05-20 11:45:19 - maniacmath17 cashed in a set of Mongolia, Eastern United States, and Brazil worth 25 armies
2008-05-20 11:45:19 - maniacmath17 gets bonus of 2 armies added to Brazil
2008-05-20 11:45:20 - maniacmath17 deployed 28 armies on Brazil
2008-05-20 11:45:21 - maniacmath17 attacked North Africa from Brazil and conquered it from deguu
2008-05-20 11:45:22 - maniacmath17 gets a card
2008-05-20 11:45:25 - kletka ran out of time


Get clickable maps. That's how both math and I can both cash and such in 3 seconds. He cashed a little early if you asked me - if I was in teh game I bet he would have waited another second. My question though, why did it take you a full 6 seconds to end your turn??
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby kletka on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:13 am

FabledIntegral wrote:My question though, why did it take you a full 6 seconds to end your turn??


As you see my response time is 2-3 seconds: I fortied then I pressed "End FOrti". Two presses take 4 seconds on a good day but can take up to 6, which is exactly what happened.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby FabledIntegral on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:16 am

kletka wrote:
FabledIntegral wrote:My question though, why did it take you a full 6 seconds to end your turn??


As you see my response time is 2-3 seconds: I fortied then I pressed "End FOrti". Two presses take 4 seconds on a good day but can take up to 6, which is exactly what happened.


You should never ever fortify if you're attempting to cash last second - that's the entire point of cashing late - you give up deploying where you want and fortifying your own territories in an attempt to get a higher cash.
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby kletka on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:14 am

As I proved today against Fabled, I suck. I guess it is all down to taking a decisecond too long to make a decision:

2008-06-12 14:07:02 - Scorpion07 attacked Afghanistan from India and conquered it from MJS
2008-06-12 14:07:07 - Scorpion07 attacked Ural from Afghanistan and conquered it from MJS
2008-06-12 14:07:16 - Scorpion07 attacked Ukraine from Afghanistan and conquered it from MJS
2008-06-12 14:07:22 - Scorpion07 attacked Scandinavia from Ukraine and conquered it from MJS
2008-06-12 14:07:23 - FabledIntegral attacked Irkutsk from Yakutsk and conquered it from MJS
2008-06-12 14:07:23 - FabledIntegral eliminated MJS from the game
2008-06-12 14:07:23 - kletka deployed 3 armies on Great Britain
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Re: gah - I suck at 8 person games

Postby viking97 on Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:19 am

Take Europe IMMIDIETLY cos' its smallest continent. Then N. Africa then South america then u can do it on ur own
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