Clickys in freestyle speed games. What are your thoughts?

[Scott-Land]

double post

[Scott-Land]

Let's face it- those players you speak of Donkey, more times than not couldn't win with CM. A lot of the better players couldn't beat me using it against me. Let's discuss those players that you think are being highly affected by not using it.

Like any other games, you have the top players that win the majority of the games- in turn we swap the points among us. The top players that didn't use CM, like myself, were the ones that didn't benefit from the add-on. It was my choice not to play with it, my own stupidity to be at a [disadvantage]. When I finally decided to use it- it's because I simply could not keep up with the speed.

Now to the real point of this post. It's not those players you're concerned with, CM is the reason you think some players are reaching the top of the scoreboard- undeservedly.

Here's my opinion...

I think clickys give an unfair advantage to those that use them, and allow for inflated scores to those that master them. I would say that if you can get good with clickys, you can almost make it to whatever rank you want... Regardless of your skill/strategy.

I wish there was a way for these people to be ranked separately from those of us who don't play this style. I would have a bunch more respect for the top 5/10 players on the scoreboard if that was the case.

If you remove CM, how does it change the scoreboard? The top players will still win as all of them use CM to level the speed factor. Remove it, it's level again. If it does anything, the better players using it will bring the skill factor back into the game. And in turn, those with speed only will not be able to maintain their rank. Brings us to the next point. It's now not CM that's the problem, it's speed freestyle? Perhaps we should make a thread about how unfair that game type is?

Let's hear your justification for your opinion. Take those 5-10 players at the top, and break their games down to see what you actually don't respect about their methods. Perhaps while you're at it, you could enlighten us on what type of player deserves your respect.

[KoE_Sirius]

I disagree with it being an unfair advantage because anyone really can get them

Sure, anyone can get them, but does everyone that plays know about them? I doubt it. I think if even one player playing in a speed game isn't using or can't use (not allowed to run it on their comp for whatever reason) clickys then those that are using them have an unfair advantage.

Hardly - not everyone knows about strategy in this game either. The simple fact of people not knowing about them hardly legitimizes not using them when they are easy to find in the forums. If you want to use computer limitations, let's bitch about those who have poor connection with CC. Therefore freestyle speed games should not be allowed in the first place because some have an advantage over other people's computers!

I agree with Fabledintergral.This upgrade is available to anyone and is talked about often in the forums and during game play.
If some people do not know about clickys,which I doubt very much.They soon will after one or two thrashings in a game.

[FabledIntegral]

I disagree with it being an unfair advantage because anyone really can get them - what's the difference between someone being faster than someone else with the drop down menus?

Personally I wouldn't care too much if clickies were banned - I might stay at Colonel instead of Brigadier but you're utterly friggin' ridiculous to even insinuate that you can trash strategy down the game. I see multiple people using clickies but I'd say I'm better than a great deal because they still can't see the board (and there are those slower than me that can read it even better than me).

IMHO, clicking very fast is not stategy, that's another kind of skill.

Most times the winner is not the smartest player, but the fastest one.

And how different is it without CM? So whoever can attack using dropdowns fastest is now at an unfair advantage. You can say it just as easily a smart player that plans something out but isn't as fast at dropdowns is at a disadvantage; as Scott said you're complaining about the nature of speed freestyle more than anything.

Most times the winner is not the fastest one - they might be fast at conquering but if they don't see what the other person is even aiming at quick enough they are at a disadvantage to those who do see it.

To *manimal

Totals Lieutenant 10pts for Captain +790 Won 13 from 65(20%)

[Hotdoggie]

Let's face it- those players you speak of Donkey, more times than not couldn't win with CM. A lot of the better players couldn't beat me using it against me. Let's discuss those players that you think are being highly affected by not using it.

Like any other games, you have the top players that win the majority of the games- in turn we swap the points among us. The top players that didn't use CM, like myself, were the ones that didn't benefit from the add-on. It was my choice not to play with it, my own stupidity to be at a [disadvantage]. When I finally decided to use it- it's because I simply could not keep up with the speed.

Now to the real point of this post. It's not those players you're concerned with, CM is the reason you think some players are reaching the top of the scoreboard- undeservedly.

Here's my opinion...

I think clickys give an unfair advantage to those that use them, and allow for inflated scores to those that master them. I would say that if you can get good with clickys, you can almost make it to whatever rank you want... Regardless of your skill/strategy.

I wish there was a way for these people to be ranked separately from those of us who don't play this style. I would have a bunch more respect for the top 5/10 players on the scoreboard if that was the case.

If you remove CM, how does it change the scoreboard? The top players will still win as all of them use CM to level the speed factor. Remove it, it's level again. If it does anything, the better players using it will bring the skill factor back into the game. And in turn, those with speed only will not be able to maintain their rank. Brings us to the next point. It's now not CM that's the problem, it's speed freestyle? Perhaps we should make a thread about how unfair that game type is?

Let's hear your justification for your opinion. Take those 5-10 players at the top, and break their games down to see what you actually don't respect about their methods. Perhaps while you're at it, you could enlighten us on what type of player deserves your respect.

It would be different cos' the lower ranked players who join the 8 player classic frees and such dont have CM so they are just dumping points into the game for one of the people who do to take.

[Scott-Land]

It would be different cos' the lower ranked players who join the 8 player classic frees and such dont have CM so they are just dumping points into the game for one of the people who do to take.

They lost before the script came out- with CM, they just lose faster

[RashidJelzin]

SCOTT IS SUCH A NOOB! ONLY RANKED 5 CAUSE HE'S FASTER THAN A FUCKING PIG ON CRACK!

[Scott-Land]

SCOTT IS SUCH A NOOB! ONLY RANKED 5 CAUSE HE'S FASTER THAN A FUCKING PIG ON CRACK!

Hehee- just say no to drugs, Rashid.

[Donkey]

Scott-Land-- I’m going to have to go off topic to answer your questions here, but I’ll try to finish this post off by going back on topic.

I’ll start by answering your last question first…

“Perhaps while you're at it, you could enlighten us on what type of player deserves your respect.”

Blitzaholic, Khazalid, David Wain, Eye84free, Dugcarr1, Gibbom, Yosevuk, Bilbo, Greycloak, and several other players that truly are the best players on this site.

Before speed games came around, these were the players at the top of the scoreboard. They had to fight tooth and nail for every single point that they got, and so they deserved to be considered the best of the best. Since speed games came around, these players have fallen out of the top ranks. Who now fills these ranks? The ones that have mastered CM’s and play the escalating freestyle speed games. That sickens me.

I have to admit, I wouldn’t even know about CM’s had it not been for one comment you made in this game: http://www.conquerclub.com/game.php?game=2702580 . You said to Greycloak, “dont forget a very simple fact Cloak…you will never see something i wont-- it only applies the other way around.” That comment blew me away. I was thinking, ”Does this guy actually think he’s that good of a player, that he knows that much more about this game than someone as good as Greycloak?” I figured maybe you just had adopted a big ego since you’d climbed the ranks so fast.

For the record, I would put your skills up against Grey’s any day, and I would bet that he would beat you 60-70% of the time. I would also put my skills up against you, but I would bet we’d be about 50/50. I say that because before the speed game revolution you were a 2000-2500 point player with decent skills (comparable to my own), but nothing compared to Grey.

Anyway… I decided to go see what made you so good at speed games, and why all of these other people I’d never seen before were suddenly sitting atop the scoreboard. As lame as it sounds, I watched a half dozen of the speed games you played in, and soon found that the game was mostly about timing. A player could have great position when the cash-ins got up to the 30-35 mark, but if they didn’t have the speed they were hooped.

So, to answer your other questions.

“It's now not CM that's the problem, it's speed freestyle?”

Speed freestyle games are not a problem for me aside from the fact that I wish players wouldn’t use them as a point grab. I choose not to play them, and I choose not to hold players that gained their rank through them in as high regard as those that play a more ‘pure’ game of Risk. That’s just my opinion.

“If you remove CM, how does it change the scoreboard?”

I think those players at the top would slowly start losing points. All of the players in the speed games they play in would have the same tools, so the CM advantage wouldn’t be there… A noob might even have a chance now and then.

This thread is about the use of CM’s, and whether people think they give an unfair advantage. I’m not trying to call out the top end of the scoreboard… I only want to see if my opinion is shared by people out there, or if I’ve got my head up my ass.

[Paddy The Cat]

hmm i think i used to play pre-clicky era (before they were dominant at least) and i gotta say doesnt seem to affect who wins em the higher ranks have earned it-plus i never used em, and i was still competetive speed wise

[Scott-Land]

I didn't think you could post objectively- Donkey. It's somehow turned into your personal feelings towards me. But If you wish to talk about me- let's do it.

I didn't ask you to name the players, merely the type of players. A very qualified list you provided though- some of those players I've only played a few games with, the others with a long proven record. Yes all great players- Greycloak included. I have to admit your idiotic play did fuel my arrogance about what I said to Cloak and it was uncalled for- to him I apologize. To my defense- I believe it to be true. I can read the board as well as anyone and am strategically sound. My arrogance has always been a fixture of my personality- surely this game isn't the cause of it. This thread was supposed to be about CM but it disturbs me that you would throw out such garbage about me without doing a little research. I find very little to be true about your personal attacks. In the future if you wish- flame me but let's keep it out of a popular thread.

Before speed games came around, these were the players at the top of the scoreboard. They had to fight tooth and nail for every single point that they got

I don't think Cloak has ever outranked me- not because he wasn't good enough. I just played more games than he. I do remember Gibbom being at the top, Khazalad has never been at the top (unless my memory escapes me), Wain an excellent dubs player- some would say he's the best. Bilbo an excellent triples player- the others were before my time or it was of no importance to me when I started playing. Blitz- is well... Blitz.

For the record, I would put your skills up against Grey’s any day, and I would bet that he would beat you 60-70% of the time. I would also put my skills up against you, but I would bet we’d be about 50/50.

Cloak and I have played 44 singles matches- each of us winning 8 games; two dub matches- each of us winning 1 game; and two 8 man dubs where he won both. I have no doubt in Cloak's ability to play- very skilled indeed.

As for you Donkey, (sorry Cloak I know he's your brother) we're not even in the same league. I won't bother commenting on it as it's laughable to say otherwise.

I say that because before the speed game revolution you were a 2000-2500 point player with decent skills

I didn't decide to play Speed Freestyle until after I reached 3300-3600 points, I can't remember exactly but that's a close estimation. One particular feedback that I received made me feel better as I lost close to 1500 points in a span of a couple of weeks learning the game. Even Comic pmed me- not an exact quote but close. WTF happened to your points ?

Jade Empire: Have player more than a few games with Scott now, and although he's been outside of his element playing freestyle, his commitment to learn a new style in spite of superficial consequences (losing some points) is a mark of quality.....

I think those players at the top would slowly start losing points. All of the players in the speed games they play in would have the same tools, so the CM advantage wouldn’t be there… A noob might even have a chance now and then.

You're so blinded with jealousy or whatever but it seems you don't quite understand what I said previously. I started playing with CM two weeks ago- give or take a day or two. My previous posts post in this thread along with others- say the same thing. I do believe, that is why it's necessary for as many players as possible to use the script. Within those two weeks, my rank has climbed 300-400 points. The players in those lineups include Poo #1, Rashid #6 (haha), Skiller#7 and countless others on the first page of the scoreboard. If I'm gaining those points, surely some of them are losing it.

If you remove CM from the equation, it will not make a difference. I personally wouldn't mind one way or the other. I finally started using it so I could keep up with the Jone's. So we do that, now the problem is Speed Freestyle, my original point. Please make a new thread if you wish- but please offer me some valid points on why it's unfair.

If you think that it's just me that doesn't deserve to be up there- I'm good with it. But please don't cheapen the others because you disaprove of a particular game type. We all fight tooth and nail to win and become better. They certainly deserve better recognition than what you are giving.

[Donkey]

PM sent.

I'm sorry for going off topic, Folks. Here is the last part of the PM to get us back on topic...

....This topic is one that I’m interested in keeping alive, because I really don’t think CM’s are fair. If even one in eight players doesn’t get a speed enhancing tool in a speed game, then I consider the other seven to have an advantage. I want to see as many opinions on this one as I can. They’d have to come out with a ‘CM’s enabled’ button, or something, to make me change my mind on that one...

[poo-maker]

Donkey- Even though I disagree with you on the debate you had with Scott, that is not part of the topic so I am not going to reply to it.

I kinda disagree and agree with you on clicky maps being unfair. Yes, as Fabled said, it is available to anyone to use. I myself have reffered at least a dozen people to that thread. On the other hand, many players only get the chance to find out about clicky maps after they have joined a game against people using them. I do understand how people could see that as unfair, but I just look at it as people not being obsessed enough in CC to go through every thread in the forums. ... i.e THEIR FAULT

Just because I can't quite ignore the digs kind of aimed at me, I will say that my score is inflated due to clicky maps. But when has score ever been a measure of skill? Score as has been said many times, is just an indication of how successful a player has been in his CC games. But, before you say that I wouldn't be where I am on the scoreboard without clicky maps. Let me just point out that I got to #1 before I used clicky maps, I even beat Blitz's old benchmark (4386) without it.

[Donkey]

There’s no doubt you’re a good player, poo, and I apologize for going off topic.

I do understand how people could see that as unfair, but I just look at it as people not being obsessed enough in CC to go through every thread in the forums. ... i.e THEIR FAULT

I don't agree. I think all a CC player should need to have a fair fight in any game is a username and a password.

[edbeard]

I don't really know the ins and outs of freestyle speed games but it seems to me that it's about taking the idea of freestyle (who can act fast and do so in a good strategic manner in regard to other people's moves knowing people can go at any time) and taking away the 'I couldn't get to my computer at 3am but this other guy is on 24/7' of a regular freestyle game.

It's all about speed so it's a bit funny that people complain that some people are TOO fast. Everyone has access to CM but perhaps there should be more advertisement from CC about the add-ons. Unfair would be if one person has what someone else cannot have. Well that's just not the case. Is it an equal playing field if one person does not have the script? no way.



One thing I find very funny when owen says BOB is a cheat. The only way it could be a 'cheat' is if it tells me something I could not know by just counting, doing a 'note to self', or looking at the map. I could see a fog game being the exception where it might be able to tell me something about what happened and when (north africa became invisible to me on yellow's turn or something) but that's going further than what owen really means.

[Bruceswar]

There’s no doubt you’re a good player, poo, and I apologize for going off topic.

I do understand how people could see that as unfair, but I just look at it as people not being obsessed enough in CC to go through every thread in the forums. ... i.e THEIR FAULT

I don't agree. I think all a CC player should need to have a fair fight in any game is a username and a password.

That would be like saying any golfer should have the same chance as Tiger Woods on a golf course using the same clubs. Both of these golfers could be great at the game, yet one chooses to lift weights (Woods) and one chooses to eat hamburgers (Daily). We see where Daily has gone vs Woods. Daily was once of the top players in the game, and now he is marginal. If he wants to survive he might wanna hit the weights. Seems to work well for Tiger. Point being is that Tiger is using his game knowledge coupled with the addition of weight lifting to make him better. As the old saying goes... "Knowledge is power" Use what you know and use it well to win. Addons if you ask me are part of the knowledge. Some help you with speed(CM) while others keep you from having to do simple math (BOB) Personally. I find that CM, yes I installed it, is good for casual games to help me speed up the moves I need to make. Takes less time. I used to spend up to an hour sometimes making all my moves. I can do it in much less time now. Being a regular to Speed 8 Man Freestyle games. It surely has changed the landscape, but I think everybody who frequents them has adapted. For those who play once in a blue moon it is not a big issue as pre CM they were still about the same . Win wise. They win once in a blue moon, for the simple fact they do not get it most of the time.

[kratos644]

There’s no doubt you’re a good player, poo, and I apologize for going off topic.

I do understand how people could see that as unfair, but I just look at it as people not being obsessed enough in CC to go through every thread in the forums. ... i.e THEIR FAULT

I don't agree. I think all a CC player should need to have a fair fight in any game is a username and a password.

That would be like saying any golfer should have the same chance as Tiger Woods on a golf course using the same clubs. Both of these golfers could be great at the game, yet one chooses to lift weights (Woods) and one chooses to eat hamburgers (Daily). We see where Daily has gone vs Woods. Daily was once of the top players in the game, and now he is marginal. If he wants to survive he might wanna hit the weights. Seems to work well for Tiger. Point being is that Tiger is using his game knowledge coupled with the addition of weight lifting to make him better. As the old saying goes... "Knowledge is power" Use what you know and use it well to win. Addons if you ask me are part of the knowledge. Some help you with speed(CM) while others keep you from having to do simple math (BOB) Personally. I find that CM, yes I installed it, is good for casual games to help me speed up the moves I need to make. Takes less time. I used to spend up to an hour sometimes making all my moves. I can do it in much less time now. Being a regular to Speed 8 Man Freestyle games. It surely has changed the landscape, but I think everybody who frequents them has adapted. For those who play once in a blue moon it is not a big issue as pre CM they were still about the same . Win wise. They win once in a blue moon, for the simple fact they do not get it most of the time.

Bruce is right here. If you choose not to use the knowledge you have then that's your own fault. The addons are very helpful whether you're using them as an advantage or not. CMs help to keep you from mis deploying on those confusing maps that have lots of territories with similar names, and BOB is great. Do you really want to count every territory to see how much your opponent is going to get when you can have an addon do it for you instead? I know I wouldn't. It helps to strategize and see how many armies you have in relation to your opponent and territories etc. etc. As for CM in the speed 8 man freestyle games if you take the CM away you still have the players that are incredibly fast with the drop down and have a fast connection so what do you do then? I personally don't play those settings overly often because I have a terrible connection that lags up all the time so I try to keep my games casual, but that doesn't mean I don't love a good 8 man freestyle escalating game none the less. So really it's not the CM that's the probably it's the players that are godly fast at clicking and the setting that allow them to exploit those skills/talents and what are you going to do about that? Cut their hands off? Theirs nothing wrong with using CM and the top players that use them don't deserve their points any less as a result of using them. They're at the top because they're skilled players who understand strategy not because they're super fast. Yes they are super fast but thats just an added bonus. So overall CM are a good thing. Yes, they are an advantage, but if you choose not to use them it was your choice to be put at a disadvantage not someone else's.

[owenshooter]

and BOB is great. Do you really want to count every territory to see how much your opponent is going to get when you can have an addon do it for you instead? I know I wouldn't. It helps to strategize and see how many armies you have in relation to your opponent and territories etc. etc.

yes, i do actually want to count and figure out my own strategy. it is part of the casual gaming experience for me. figuring it all out in my head... ahem... i don't need BooB tools or CM (because i stay away from speed and freestyle games), but i understand WHY people use them on CC and i understand how useful they are. again, if you don't like being beaten by the tools (notice i didn't use the word CHEATS, as i think that is a huge sticking point with alot of BooB and CM users), don't play in the games where they are most often utilized to win...-0

[Thezzaruz]

I think all a CC player should need to have a fair fight in any game is a username and a password.

Skill, experience and connection speed will make sure that never happens. And what Bruce said...

[Kemmler]

Look, the problem here is not CLICKABLE MAPS. It's CONNECTION SPEED.

[Donkey]

CM's = Knowledge?

Forgive me if I have a tough time wrapping my head around that one...

[Bruceswar]

CM's = Knowledge?

Forgive me if I have a tough time wrapping my head around that one...

Knowing about CM = Knowledge. Just like in Golf knowing about putter X that game make your game go up 3 notches. Some people would like to say CM is like roids, and this very well may be true to an extent, for freestyle speed games that is. It has no effect really on any other type of games as speed is not a factor. Well OK some casual freestyle games can turn into speed. Anyhow point is anything that is out there for all to use, given a bit of research I see no problem with it. It is not like this addon gives you bonus armies or a better drop. You do not even get better dice. The main scoreboard is so generalized you cannot take all the top players as the best in the game at every setting. Every player has settings they like and thus they become good at them and rise to the top. The score is so diverse and that is the beauty of it all. For what is it worth CM does not make me much faster, but it does save me time in my casual games. I am slow as hell given my PC / Connection. Mainly my PC.

[Scott-Land]

I too have been railing games that I'm not in- if anything, I think CM has helped the [noobs]. Using the same point the anti-CM players use on why discontinuing the use of the script, the unfair advantage you speak of- is really in fact allowing them to win more games.

Let's say that I agree that mouse click and [timing] is indeed the overall reason for winning games, doesn't that mean that skill and strategy has taken a back seat to speed ? If so, the lower ranks obviously lack skill therefore wouldn't that mean it has allowed them to replace it with speed to win more games- to win games where drop downs would ensure their defeat? As far as I'm concerned, you're proving to me it requires less skill to win ... which means it does indeed benefit the lesser skilled, ie- low ranks. If anything, it's hurts players with sound strategy playing those games- ie high ranks.

[Donkey]

I too have been railing games that I'm not in- if anything, I think CM has helped the [noobs]. Using the same point the anti-CM players use on why discontinuing the use of the script, the unfair advantage you speak of- is really in fact allowing them to win more games.

Let's say that I agree that mouse click and [timing] is indeed the overall reason for winning games, doesn't that mean that skill and strategy has taken a back seat to speed ? If so, the lower ranks obviously lack skill therefore wouldn't that mean it has allowed them to replace it with speed to win more games- to win games where drop downs would ensure their defeat? As far as I'm concerned, you're proving to me it requires less skill to win ... which means it does indeed benefit the lesser skilled, ie- low ranks. If anything, it's hurts players with sound strategy playing those games- ie high ranks.

All of that would be true if all noobs had CM's, but not all noobs know to search through the forums to find add-ons. If something was included in the confirmation e-mail that goes out when you first sign up telling them about these add-ons, and that they would be at a disadvantage in certain games without them... I wouldn't see a problem.

[Scott-Land]

I too have been railing games that I'm not in- if anything, I think CM has helped the [noobs]. Using the same point the anti-CM players use on why discontinuing the use of the script, the unfair advantage you speak of- is really in fact allowing them to win more games.

Let's say that I agree that mouse click and [timing] is indeed the overall reason for winning games, doesn't that mean that skill and strategy has taken a back seat to speed ? If so, the lower ranks obviously lack skill therefore wouldn't that mean it has allowed them to replace it with speed to win more games- to win games where drop downs would ensure their defeat? As far as I'm concerned, you're proving to me it requires less skill to win ... which means it does indeed benefit the lesser skilled, ie- low ranks. If anything, it's hurts players with sound strategy playing those games- ie high ranks.

All of that would be true if all noobs had CM's, but not all noobs know to search through the forums to find add-ons. If something was included in the confirmation e-mail that goes out when you first sign up telling them about these add-ons, and that they would be at a disadvantage in certain games without them... I wouldn't see a problem.

As Poo said, we've directed quite of bit of players to that thread when asked. A player that has been playing 100s of games asked me via pm just tonight about where he could find the thread. I've played thousands of games without it. Your primary concern is a noob that has played 1 or 2 games before he learns of it- that's unfair ?

I certainly can see your point about letting the new players know about it- and totally agree. I say this because personally, I didn't visit the forums until months and months after I began playing. One of the things I regret is not knowing sooner of all the records and such. It's definitely worth considering to perhaps suggest that when logging in, it takes us to the forums rather than [My Games] page. It would definitely increase the traffic in the forum. Again, that's an entirely different topic.