Reduce The Luck Factor

[para]

It is not that dificult to realize that if you took out the cards, you take out some of the luck.

That's not true. This way, as BaldAdonis said, you just put all eggs in one basket.

In game with cards, dice matter and cards matter. In no cards game, only dice matter. But they matter more than dice and cards together in a card game. So, by removing cards, you're actually inflating luck factor...

(I explained it once in a greater detail, don't know whether I'll succeed to find that post)

If you could explain it again it would be much apreciated.

I fail to see how the luck of dice increases when no cards are taken away.

[Aradhus]

Its pretty obvious. If you take luck as 100% and introduce cards and dice into it, you get something like cards = 50% luck, and dice = 50% luck. Take away the cards, and the dice become 100% luck.

Actually I don't know if thats obvious, its a kinda spastic way of explaining it, but it might help push you towards understanding.

[para]

well first of all, thats different then what you said that the lucl of dice without cards is more than the luvk of cards and dice combined

thats like saying without cardsm luck of dice is 150%

regardless, the way i see it, dice luck is 50%, and card luck is 50% (thats of course they're assuming theyre equal in the first place) and when you get rid of cards, total luck is now only 50% since you now only have dice luck

although we are ignoring drop luck here, but the same principle still applies, 2/3 of the luck rather than 1/2

simply put, card luck and dice luck are independant of eachother but still contributive to the overall luck of the game so getting rid of one luck factor will diminish the overall luck of the game.

going by your logic, dice are somehow less luck based in games with cards. how do you explain that one?

[Aradhus]

Luck swings both ways, you can get good or bad. In card games, good luck with cards, and good luck with dice, greatly increases your chances of winning. Or you can get good luck with cards, and bad luck with dice, vice versa etc. In no cards, excluding the drop, all you have is the luck of the die, and that swing from good to bad, and everything in between. Increasing the value of the dice, because cards aren't involved. The game revolves around the dice, which increase the swing factor from good luck to bad luck, because you don't have the luck of the cards to affect it. If the value of the dice is increased, then so is the value of the luck of the dice.

[john9blue]

I think I know what you guys are trying to explain. It's like if you and a friend had a rock-paper-scissors contest. Playing with cards, dice, and starting drop is like playing best of 3. Playing with just dice is like playing one match. Both require luck, but the second option makes it all rest on a single factor.

[porkenbeans]

Luck swings both ways, you can get good or bad. In card games, good luck with cards, and good luck with dice, greatly increases your chances of winning. Or you can get good luck with cards, and bad luck with dice, vice versa etc. In no cards, excluding the drop, all you have is the luck of the die, and that swing from good to bad, and everything in between. Increasing the value of the dice, because cards aren't involved. The game revolves around the dice, which increase the swing factor from good luck to bad luck, because you don't have the luck of the cards to affect it. If the value of the dice is increased, then so is the value of the luck of the dice.

Your math is not correct.
Dice = 100% luck.
Cards = 100% luck.
Drop = 100% luck.

Buy removing the cards, you do not increase the luck of the other two. They are random occurrences and their luck value will always remain the same. There importance is increased however. But so is the skill value. This increase in importance or occurrence is a wash. so you are left with less overall occurrence of luck in the game.

[Aradhus]

Luck swings both ways, you can get good or bad. In card games, good luck with cards, and good luck with dice, greatly increases your chances of winning. Or you can get good luck with cards, and bad luck with dice, vice versa etc. In no cards, excluding the drop, all you have is the luck of the die, and that swing from good to bad, and everything in between. Increasing the value of the dice, because cards aren't involved. The game revolves around the dice, which increase the swing factor from good luck to bad luck, because you don't have the luck of the cards to affect it. If the value of the dice is increased, then so is the value of the luck of the dice.

Your math is not correct.
Dice = 100% luck.
Cards = 100% luck.
Drop = 100% luck.

Buy removing the cards, you do not increase the luck of the other two. They are random occurrences and their luck value will always remain the same. There importance is increased however. But so is the skill value. This increase in importance or occurrence is a wash. so you are left with less overall occurrence of luck in the game.

Your logic is(as usual) wrong.

Why does the skill value increase, because you say so? Because you can't argue against the obvious conclusion that increased value of dice equates increased effect of the luck of the dice. When players join no cards games does their skill level automatcally increase, and decrease when they go back to a card game? Just because you say so is a horrendous argument, but its exactly what I expect from you.

[porkenbeans]

Luck swings both ways, you can get good or bad. In card games, good luck with cards, and good luck with dice, greatly increases your chances of winning. Or you can get good luck with cards, and bad luck with dice, vice versa etc. In no cards, excluding the drop, all you have is the luck of the die, and that swing from good to bad, and everything in between. Increasing the value of the dice, because cards aren't involved. The game revolves around the dice, which increase the swing factor from good luck to bad luck, because you don't have the luck of the cards to affect it. If the value of the dice is increased, then so is the value of the luck of the dice.

Your math is not correct.
Dice = 100% luck.
Cards = 100% luck.
Drop = 100% luck.

Buy removing the cards, you do not increase the luck of the other two. They are random occurrences and their luck value will always remain the same. There importance is increased however. But so is the skill value. This increase in importance or occurrence is a wash. so you are left with less overall occurrence of luck in the game.

Your logic is(as usual) wrong.

Why does the skill value increase, because you say so? Because you can't argue against the obvious conclusion that increased value of dice equates increased effect of the luck of the dice. When players join no cards games does their skill level automatcally increase, and decrease when they go back to a card game? Just because you say so is a horrendous argument, but its exactly what I expect from you.

Take a golf analogy for instance. tiger is teeing up on a par three, What are the odds that he will hit a hole in one ? Let us say that there are only 3 luck factors verses his skill. 1 - the wind. 2 - his bad knee that flares up in the middle of his shot every now and then. 3 - this crazy seagull that has been constantly snatching balls out of the air.
If you shoot the bird, you have just removed one of the luck factors. thus making it more likely that he will get his hole in one. The luck factor of the wind and his knee is NOT increased because the bird is dead. HIS SKILL WILL BE A MORE DETERMINING FACTOR, ...than luck, will be.

[bridge2far]

dice
cards
drop
who goes first in seq

all luck yes

remove them all, completely strategy

city mogul 1v1 freestyle speed- no cards, foggy, adj.

dice
are not a big part b/c the larger the numbers the closer dice approach a constant. 100v100 will win 80% of the time, increased % the larger the numbers are.

cards
no cards, need i say more?

drop
its a conquest match so start positions are always fair, and there is no start position better than another because you always have 8 starting terrs.

who goes first
making it freestyle eliminates the advantage of playing first like in sequential. some may argue that it then turns the game into a speed match and who can make the most moves in the last few seconds, from what i've seen and played myself this can be overcome with strategy.


so basically all you have left is just pure strategy and logic, expressed even further in a speed game because you have to make quick 2 second decisions.

this answers your question and to prove it you can just check either me or king herpes.. i've gained over 700pts from this and have a 89% win percentage and king herpes has gained +2375 with a 97% win percentage.

[FabledIntegral]

dice


who goes first
making it sequential eliminates the advantage of playing first. some may argue that it then turns the game into a speed match and who can make the most moves in the last few seconds, from what i've seen and played myself this can be overcome with strategy.

Uhh....

[bridge2far]

thx. edited.

[para]

crap, i had this whole awesome example of how more luck factors increases overall luck and when i pushed submit it turns out that i had been logged out.

bah

but the golf analogy works too.



also to remove the luck of who goes first, it doesnt neccessarily need to be speed, except for the fact that some people cant always be online, and then all you really need is a real-time match(like one arranged in the chat)

otherwise i would agree with your assesment on the best way to reduce luck, i probably would play that way if i had the time to be on enough for freestyle.

[demonfork]

I'd like you to post ways that you can get around having to deal with the huge luck factor in this game. I am perpetually screwed over by the dice, cards, turn order, drop, you name it (for the sake of brevity, I won't use "intensity cubes" or "spoils" or any of the new terms), and I know I'm not the only one who wants to eliminate the luck factor as much as possible. I have found that the following game modes require a great deal of luck:

No Cards: Bad luck with the drop and dice.

Flat Rate: Bad luck with the drop and cards.

Escalating: Bad luck with cards, which can determine the entire outcome of a game.

Foggy: Probably better than Sunny, but people will let someone else grow too huge until they can't be stopped. The drop matters too much. Then you get people who attack you constantly even though someone else is clearly winning.

Sunny: On the occasion that I am the one growing huge, people will team up on me.

Sequential: Obviously, the player going first is going to have an advantage, and is going to get their cards first, and so on. Since I am a freemium, I'd like to take my turn more than once every few days, too.

2 Player Games: Having to beat someone who gets Australia on Round 1 is not my idea of a good time. Bad drop luck.

Assassin Games: Umm... no. Whoever gets the noob suicider target wins.

I have tried the following solutions with little success:

Playing High Ranked Players Only: I don't want to be reduced to this. It would become boring, and besides, I enjoy tournaments.

Playing 3-8 Player Games: I do, almost all of the time, and I lose about 10% of my games because I get an early lead and everyone else teams up and pounds me into oblivion.

Playing Adjacent Games: These games take almost forever to fill up, because almost nobody plays adjacent, and I can see why... it's very irritating sometimes.

Play Team Games: This has the same problems as 2-4 player games (bad drop, being ganged up upon, etc.), and I feel guilty whenever my partner suffers due to my bad luck.

Play Private Games/Join A Clan: Probably a good solution, but it would get boring if the group was too small. I'm open for suggestions.

Play Freestyle Games: I do, whenever I can. However, there are not many available, the last person to join gets a slight advantage by going first, and most tournaments are sequential anyway.

Play *Insert Map Here*: I am not aware of which maps require the least luck, and would like to hear suggestions.

If you're going to call me a whiner or a loser, or tell me to leave the site, or say "tl;dr", then don't respond. I realize that some of this seems contradictory (e.g. Sunny and Foggy both having a huge luck factor), but what I'm looking for is either a combination of game types or a clever solution that you've found that reduces the luck factor in this game. Thanks for your help.

This is why all high rankers are farmers, if you want to make it past major, you are forced to only play games that you know you can win, you must eliminate the luck factor.

[porkenbeans]

crap, i had this whole awesome example of how more luck factors increases overall luck and when i pushed submit it turns out that i had been logged out.

bah

but the golf analogy works too.



also to remove the luck of who goes first, it doesnt neccessarily need to be speed, except for the fact that some people cant always be online, and then all you really need is a real-time match(like one arranged in the chat)

otherwise i would agree with your assesment on the best way to reduce luck, i probably would play that way if i had the time to be on enough for freestyle.

This has happened to me as well. After you log back in, just remember to click the back button. Your text will not be lost. I cant tell you how many miles of thread that I have lost till I figured that one out. gl.

[porkenbeans]

I'd like you to post ways that you can get around having to deal with the huge luck factor in this game. I am perpetually screwed over by the dice, cards, turn order, drop, you name it (for the sake of brevity, I won't use "intensity cubes" or "spoils" or any of the new terms), and I know I'm not the only one who wants to eliminate the luck factor as much as possible. I have found that the following game modes require a great deal of luck:

No Cards: Bad luck with the drop and dice.

Flat Rate: Bad luck with the drop and cards.

Escalating: Bad luck with cards, which can determine the entire outcome of a game.

Foggy: Probably better than Sunny, but people will let someone else grow too huge until they can't be stopped. The drop matters too much. Then you get people who attack you constantly even though someone else is clearly winning.

Sunny: On the occasion that I am the one growing huge, people will team up on me.

Sequential: Obviously, the player going first is going to have an advantage, and is going to get their cards first, and so on. Since I am a freemium, I'd like to take my turn more than once every few days, too.

2 Player Games: Having to beat someone who gets Australia on Round 1 is not my idea of a good time. Bad drop luck.

Assassin Games: Umm... no. Whoever gets the noob suicider target wins.

I have tried the following solutions with little success:

Playing High Ranked Players Only: I don't want to be reduced to this. It would become boring, and besides, I enjoy tournaments.

Playing 3-8 Player Games: I do, almost all of the time, and I lose about 10% of my games because I get an early lead and everyone else teams up and pounds me into oblivion.

Playing Adjacent Games: These games take almost forever to fill up, because almost nobody plays adjacent, and I can see why... it's very irritating sometimes.

Play Team Games: This has the same problems as 2-4 player games (bad drop, being ganged up upon, etc.), and I feel guilty whenever my partner suffers due to my bad luck.

Play Private Games/Join A Clan: Probably a good solution, but it would get boring if the group was too small. I'm open for suggestions.

Play Freestyle Games: I do, whenever I can. However, there are not many available, the last person to join gets a slight advantage by going first, and most tournaments are sequential anyway.

Play *Insert Map Here*: I am not aware of which maps require the least luck, and would like to hear suggestions.

If you're going to call me a whiner or a loser, or tell me to leave the site, or say "tl;dr", then don't respond. I realize that some of this seems contradictory (e.g. Sunny and Foggy both having a huge luck factor), but what I'm looking for is either a combination of game types or a clever solution that you've found that reduces the luck factor in this game. Thanks for your help.

This is why all high rankers are farmers, if you want to make it past major, you are forced to only play games that you know you can win, you must eliminate the luck factor.

As for which map is best, I would say any complicated one. If you can learn it well, you can sometimes overcome a bad drop or going last because you are more likely to know the map better than your opponent. if the drop and or first to go is on your side, you will be very hard to stop. I like Prob. Chicago.

[john9blue]

Bleh. I just lost my first City Mogul game. Guess why? Bad dice (almost lost 50 vs. 20), and a newbie practically suicided on me. Maybe I'll give that map another chance.

[dhallmeyer]

I don't think there's a way to reduce the luck factor. But you can MANAGE it. In my games, (classic, term, seq, esc, sunny, 6-8 players) i try to be diverse (2-4 stacks) on the board, and never attack less that 3v1 unless I've got no choice. Always spend less than you make (exception: going for a kill). Don't worry about bonuses of either sort, they don't pay enough to justify the expense of having them (exception: drop on 3/4 in SA or Aussie). It essentially becomes a waiting game. Time it right, and recognize when the dice are (and aren't) with you and you'll win lots of games.

[Zemljanin]

It is not that dificult to realize that if you took out the cards, you take out some of the luck.

That's not true. This way, as BaldAdonis said, you just put all eggs in one basket.

In game with cards, dice matter and cards matter. In no cards game, only dice matter. But they matter more than dice and cards together in a card game. So, by removing cards, you're actually inflating luck factor...

(I explained it once in a greater detail, don't know whether I'll succeed to find that post)

If you could explain it again it would be much apreciated.

I fail to see how the luck of dice increases when no cards are taken away.

Sorry, I forgot of this thread. I don't understand your last sentence, but I am saying that importance of dice increases when you remove cards from the game. Common mistake in thinking is assuming that more random events mean "more luck involved". It is not true - on the contrary!

crap, i had this whole awesome example of how more luck factors increases overall luck and when i pushed submit it turns out that i had been logged out.

Crap, I'd really like to see that example...

[DarthBlood]

I find that team games minimize the luck factor the most

yeah

also, if you play bigger maps like world 2.1 then dice wont change the game as much

yeah, but then whoever goes first gets a huge advantage.
a normal 1v1 seq, first person to go gets...what? 8-10 armies, right? with that, they can easily take a whole bonus for themself, and if its unlimited forts, then they can fort in more units to protect themselves, which will practically give them the game.

[baggins994]

I'd like you to post ways that you can get around having to deal with the huge luck factor in this game. I am perpetually screwed over by the dice, cards, turn order, drop, you name it (for the sake of brevity, I won't use "intensity cubes" or "spoils" or any of the new terms), and I know I'm not the only one who wants to eliminate the luck factor as much as possible. I have found that the following game modes require a great deal of luck:

No Cards: Bad luck with the drop and dice.

Flat Rate: Bad luck with the drop and cards.

Escalating: Bad luck with cards, which can determine the entire outcome of a game.

Foggy: Probably better than Sunny, but people will let someone else grow too huge until they can't be stopped. The drop matters too much. Then you get people who attack you constantly even though someone else is clearly winning.

Sunny: On the occasion that I am the one growing huge, people will team up on me.

Sequential: Obviously, the player going first is going to have an advantage, and is going to get their cards first, and so on. Since I am a freemium, I'd like to take my turn more than once every few days, too.

2 Player Games: Having to beat someone who gets Australia on Round 1 is not my idea of a good time. Bad drop luck.

Assassin Games: Umm... no. Whoever gets the noob suicider target wins.

I have tried the following solutions with little success:

Playing High Ranked Players Only: I don't want to be reduced to this. It would become boring, and besides, I enjoy tournaments.

Playing 3-8 Player Games: I do, almost all of the time, and I lose about 10% of my games because I get an early lead and everyone else teams up and pounds me into oblivion.

Playing Adjacent Games: These games take almost forever to fill up, because almost nobody plays adjacent, and I can see why... it's very irritating sometimes.

Play Team Games: This has the same problems as 2-4 player games (bad drop, being ganged up upon, etc.), and I feel guilty whenever my partner suffers due to my bad luck.

Play Private Games/Join A Clan: Probably a good solution, but it would get boring if the group was too small. I'm open for suggestions.

Play Freestyle Games: I do, whenever I can. However, there are not many available, the last person to join gets a slight advantage by going first, and most tournaments are sequential anyway.

Play *Insert Map Here*: I am not aware of which maps require the least luck, and would like to hear suggestions.

If you're going to call me a whiner or a loser, or tell me to leave the site, or say "tl;dr", then don't respond. I realize that some of this seems contradictory (e.g. Sunny and Foggy both having a huge luck factor), but what I'm looking for is either a combination of game types or a clever solution that you've found that reduces the luck factor in this game. Thanks for your help.

Have you ever played real RISK? It's exactly the same, lost of luck:
Shuffle cards for the drop (Random)
And Bonuses (Random)
Roll dice to attack (Random)
Most of the rest of your things have to do with players, teammates etc.:
What you do affects what they do, it's not luck, it's skill.

[porkenbeans]

I'd like you to post ways that you can get around having to deal with the huge luck factor in this game. I am perpetually screwed over by the dice, cards, turn order, drop, you name it (for the sake of brevity, I won't use "intensity cubes" or "spoils" or any of the new terms), and I know I'm not the only one who wants to eliminate the luck factor as much as possible. I have found that the following game modes require a great deal of luck:

No Cards: Bad luck with the drop and dice.

Flat Rate: Bad luck with the drop and cards.

Escalating: Bad luck with cards, which can determine the entire outcome of a game.

Foggy: Probably better than Sunny, but people will let someone else grow too huge until they can't be stopped. The drop matters too much. Then you get people who attack you constantly even though someone else is clearly winning.

Sunny: On the occasion that I am the one growing huge, people will team up on me.

Sequential: Obviously, the player going first is going to have an advantage, and is going to get their cards first, and so on. Since I am a freemium, I'd like to take my turn more than once every few days, too.

2 Player Games: Having to beat someone who gets Australia on Round 1 is not my idea of a good time. Bad drop luck.

Assassin Games: Umm... no. Whoever gets the noob suicider target wins.

I have tried the following solutions with little success:

Playing High Ranked Players Only: I don't want to be reduced to this. It would become boring, and besides, I enjoy tournaments.

Playing 3-8 Player Games: I do, almost all of the time, and I lose about 10% of my games because I get an early lead and everyone else teams up and pounds me into oblivion.

Playing Adjacent Games: These games take almost forever to fill up, because almost nobody plays adjacent, and I can see why... it's very irritating sometimes.

Play Team Games: This has the same problems as 2-4 player games (bad drop, being ganged up upon, etc.), and I feel guilty whenever my partner suffers due to my bad luck.

Play Private Games/Join A Clan: Probably a good solution, but it would get boring if the group was too small. I'm open for suggestions.

Play Freestyle Games: I do, whenever I can. However, there are not many available, the last person to join gets a slight advantage by going first, and most tournaments are sequential anyway.

Play *Insert Map Here*: I am not aware of which maps require the least luck, and would like to hear suggestions.

If you're going to call me a whiner or a loser, or tell me to leave the site, or say "tl;dr", then don't respond. I realize that some of this seems contradictory (e.g. Sunny and Foggy both having a huge luck factor), but what I'm looking for is either a combination of game types or a clever solution that you've found that reduces the luck factor in this game. Thanks for your help.

Have you ever played real RISK? It's exactly the same, lost of luck:
Shuffle cards for the drop (Random)
And Bonuses (Random)
Roll dice to attack (Random)
Most of the rest of your things have to do with players, teammates etc.:
What you do affects what they do, it's not luck, it's skill.

In the original Risk, Players take turns picking territories. So luck of the drop is eliminated. It would make for a good option here. I am for anything that reduces the luck factor and allows more for skill, to determine the game.

[baggins994]

In the original Risk, Players take turns picking territories. So luck of the drop is eliminated. It would make for a good option here. I am for anything that reduces the luck factor and allows more for skill, to determine the game.

Ahh you are correct, i forgot.