Open letter to Lack, Twill and Andy

[BaldAdonis]

For me, if we can not have the world map, the Classic Gameplay may as well die.
That is not a bitter statement, it is just the realisation of the limitations before us.

There's a workaround that I think might have been overlooked for this. The site itself doesn't have to use the image. If they use an image that makes use of the same xml (ie. same gameplay + same territory coordinates), then you - the enduser - can use a script to replace the picture with whichever image you like. As long as the coordinates match, your experience will be what it always was, and no one on the site will have to break copyright.

Someone, somewhere along the line would have to host the image to be used, but I doubt that will be a problem.

[black elk speaks]

For me, if we can not have the world map, the Classic Gameplay may as well die.
That is not a bitter statement, it is just the realisation of the limitations before us.

There's a workaround that I think might have been overlooked for this. The site itself doesn't have to use the image. If they use an image that makes use of the same xml (ie. same gameplay + same territory coordinates), then you - the enduser - can use a script to replace the picture with whichever image you like. As long as the coordinates match, your experience will be what it always was, and no one on the site will have to break copyright.

Someone, somewhere along the line would have to host the image to be used, but I doubt that will be a problem.

or, you can just let it go. making a hack so that people can use what ever image that they want while having some image hosted somewhere would still have copyright problems, only it would now be the problem of the image hoster.

the point is not the map, the taking away of the map, or the forum problems. it is the lack of care and information in the handling of these problems. people pay to play, they should be apprised of site's status, legal or otherwise.

[pimpdave]

Finally, it is obvious to me that you enjoy "respect" on this site by sucking up to those that you believe have clout or "respect". Do not be fooled, you don't have respect here any more than I do.

I know I said I wouldn't appear in this thread again, but your public comments ought to be addressed in public, so here goes:

I am unaware of any respect directed my way. I'm pretty sure no one respects me on this site, because my posts are either silly, acerbic, or occasionally expository of an unmitigated anger.

The point being, your accusations of me being a sheep underscore how much you care about getting respect, and so I felt the need to point out to you that your desire is undelivered by the masses.

Another difference between you and I, old chum. I don't care about getting any respect nor do I expect any. You on the other hand seem to crave it. And while I might be wrong in my impression, you seldom have done anything to give me a contrary impression.


However, just to get this back on topic, and perhaps a bit more adroitly than I did this morning, I hope everyone can learn to live with the uncertainty surrounding the site at present. I've really come to love CC and want to see it prosper. If I was abrasive or rude to anyone in my earlier posts, I am sorry. What I wrote wasn't meant to be taken seriously, it was delivered from a tongue-in-cheek position, especially when commenting about individuals.

So let's please all be patient, and figure out a solution among ourselves, rather than whining and complaining ad nauseum about something no one can even definitively say is the site admins' fault or something they can control or influence.


That is all.

[black elk speaks]

Finally, it is obvious to me that you enjoy "respect" on this site by sucking up to those that you believe have clout or "respect". Do not be fooled, you don't have respect here any more than I do.

I know I said I wouldn't appear in this thread again, but your public comments ought to be addressed in public, so here goes:

I am unaware of any respect directed my way. I'm pretty sure no one respects me on this site, because my posts are either silly, acerbic, or occasionally expository of an unmitigated anger.

The point being, your accusations of me being a sheep underscore how much you care about getting respect, and so I felt the need to point out to you that your desire is undelivered by the masses.

Another difference between you and I, old chum. I don't care about getting any respect nor do I expect any. You on the other hand seem to crave it. And while I might be wrong in my impression, you seldom have done anything to give me a contrary impression.


However, just to get this back on topic, and perhaps a bit more adroitly than I did this morning, I hope everyone can learn to live with the uncertainty surrounding the site at present. I've really come to love CC and want to see it prosper. If I was abrasive or rude to anyone in my earlier posts, I am sorry. What I wrote wasn't meant to be taken seriously, it was delivered from a tongue-in-cheek position, especially when commenting about individuals.

So let's please all be patient, and figure out a solution among ourselves, rather than whining and complaining ad nauseum about something no one can even definitively say is the site admins' fault or something they can control or influence.


That is all.

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1650799#p1650799

[Incandenza]

For me, if we can not have the world map, the Classic Gameplay may as well die.
That is not a bitter statement, it is just the realisation of the limitations before us.

I disagree. The old dead classic map was, well, kinda butt-ugly. And I understand that the removal of the geographic element on both replacements does diminish the conceptual stakes a bit, but the fact remains that we're playing games, not maps.

[jiminski]

For me, if we can not have the world map, the Classic Gameplay may as well die.
That is not a bitter statement, it is just the realisation of the limitations before us.

I disagree. The old dead classic map was, well, kinda butt-ugly. And I understand that the removal of the geographic element on both replacements does diminish the conceptual stakes a bit, but the fact remains that we're playing games, not maps.

the point is that we were playing the map in Classics case. I am being philosophical about it and i do not need that gameplay over all other gameplay but i did enjoy that map with that gameplay over all others .. (my ultimate would be a world map revamp which looks like RJ's Brazil.. aint gonna happen)

Please Incand, so i don't have to rehash the context of that statement, do have a peek at where that tiny segment of the post fit in.

You may still disagree but at least you will take my meaning with greater depth than this diminutive portion as isolated and posted by another.

[BaldAdonis]

or, you can just let it go. making a hack so that people can use what ever image that they want while having some image hosted somewhere would still have copyright problems, only it would now be the problem of the image hoster.

So what? Hasbro is not going to chase after a dozen photobucket accounts. You can already find hundreds of images online that would work perfectly. As long as they aren't hosted by CC, it's not a legal problem for them, and that's what's important.

[black elk speaks]

or, you can just let it go. making a hack so that people can use what ever image that they want while having some image hosted somewhere would still have copyright problems, only it would now be the problem of the image hoster.

So what? Hasbro is not going to chase after a dozen photobucket accounts. You can already find hundreds of images online that would work perfectly. As long as they aren't hosted by CC, it's not a legal problem for them, and that's what's important.

ummm, i would think that it would still be a problem. for instance, you wouldn't really be able to promote that idea for general use without letting some people know about it. the "idea" of it would be shared and anyone working for hasbro would have the potential to plant a mole into the ranks, or someone slighted by CC could snitch the method out back to hasbro. once that were to happen, the legal disembowelment of CC would commence and CC's admin's/owners would get sued for "working around" the likely fragile agreement.

As I said earlier, let the map go. find other maps and enjoy them, and the community at large. But personally, this site isn't worth $25 a year. The admin's should seek an advertising revenue approach to profitability as they surely have the traffic to support clients in that market.

[BaldAdonis]

ummm, i would think that it would still be a problem. for instance, you wouldn't really be able to promote that idea for general use without letting some people know about it. the "idea" of it would be shared and anyone working for hasbro would have the potential to plant a mole into the ranks, or someone slighted by CC could snitch the method out back to hasbro. once that were to happen, the legal disembowelment of CC would commence and CC's admin's/owners would get sued for "working around" the likely fragile agreement.

No, it wouldn't be. It's legal for the enduser to swap any image on any website with one of their choosing. The only thing someone could tell Hasbro is that players are using JavaScript to do that. CC has nothing to do with the workaround.

[black elk speaks]

ummm, i would think that it would still be a problem. for instance, you wouldn't really be able to promote that idea for general use without letting some people know about it. the "idea" of it would be shared and anyone working for hasbro would have the potential to plant a mole into the ranks, or someone slighted by CC could snitch the method out back to hasbro. once that were to happen, the legal disembowelment of CC would commence and CC's admin's/owners would get sued for "working around" the likely fragile agreement.

No, it wouldn't be. It's legal for the enduser to swap any image on any website with one of their choosing. The only thing someone could tell Hasbro is that players are using JavaScript to do that. CC has nothing to do with the workaround.

you get right on that... I think you are playing with fire.

[MajorRT]

Just got this from "Crazy Map +Dice" thread. I wonder if Lack got a letter like the one at that site...

by teakwoodsailing on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am

Interesting read:
http://www.monopolizedchaos.com/2008/04 ... st-letter/ teakwoodsailing

Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:41 pm
Private message

[FabledIntegral]

FabledIntegrity, as with an earlier poster, I think you miss the point. Clearly there is an issue here that needs to be addressed by the Admin of the site. 80 pages of thread within less than 24 hours can attest that this is something that this business needs to at least acknowledge. It may be that you don't care if people leave CC and never come back but as someone who wants to see the site thrive I do and this is something that should have been addressed without anyone having to point it out. Its a basic common sense for any business owner. I'm sorry if you feel that a view that expects more than what is being done is moronic but the idea that someone could want to help the site, even in a way that you may disagree with, is hardly moronic.

80 pages of thread within less than 24 hours doesn't attest to much of anything. Lack, I believe, does this as a full time job. Obviously he's attempting to work out what his own business. Concerning "common sense" and business direction, it's nothing short of mere amusement to see customers point out the "obvious" on how someone else's business should be run.

If I interpreted this thread by you as "helping the site" as you put it, I probably would commend you for it. Yet that wasn't what I got at all from this thread. It sounded to me like nothing more than a whiny rant, accompanied by some ignorance of having godlike expectations of receiving a response to a PM within a day.

To turn around what I said and say that "I don't care if others leave the site, but you do," or whatever the hell your point was attempting to make, was also nothing short of stupidity on your part. I never mentioned anything of the sort, and whether or not I care is irrelevant to the point I made. Starting whiny/bitching threads isn't helping the cause when 10 of them are already up, it just furthers the wave of pessimism that's building upon itself.

If you truly believe that the owner of the site, who's career and means of living is off this site, isn't doing his best to further it and work out any legal issues, I suggest you reevaluate the situation. I understand you wish to be informed (and I'm not sure of any other possible expectations you have from this site at the moment except for further information), yet to fail to understand that it's been nothing more than a week and that they have already stated they are working on the situation is the problem.

You talk about common sense and "potential customers," but fail to realize that in reality, there would be a significantly small amount of people actually to leave the site, and even such is expected in a time where issues such as the ones with Hasbro are occurring.

[Bones2484]

If I interpreted this thread by you as "helping the site" as you put it, I probably would commend you for it. Yet that wasn't what I got at all from this thread. It sounded to me like nothing more than a whiny rant, accompanied by some ignorance of having godlike expectations of receiving a response to a PM within a day.

Obviously, what you "got from this thread" couldnt be further from the intent.

Try reading it again. He's simply asking for some sort of status report for everyone to see. I fail to see why this can't happen.

[FabledIntegral]

If I interpreted this thread by you as "helping the site" as you put it, I probably would commend you for it. Yet that wasn't what I got at all from this thread. It sounded to me like nothing more than a whiny rant, accompanied by some ignorance of having godlike expectations of receiving a response to a PM within a day.

Obviously, what you "got from this thread" couldnt be further from the intent.

Try reading it again. He's simply asking for some sort of status report for everyone to see. I fail to see why this can't happen.

He starts it with shooting them down saying they ignored his PM. Then he starts a thread saying nothing new compared to what everyone else has been saying. He's telling them they caused 2 of the best members to leave, etc. Basically he's saying that they are doing their job poorly, and telling them what they should do.

That's a whiny rant from a customer. He's dissatisfied and he's whining about what is wrong.

[pimpdave]

Just got this from "Crazy Map +Dice" thread. I wonder if Lack got a letter like the one at that site...

by teakwoodsailing on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am

Interesting read:
http://www.monopolizedchaos.com/2008/04 ... st-letter/ teakwoodsailing

Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:41 pm
Private message

I'm curious as to any further developments in that story. Keep following it and update us. He doesn't seem to be relenting to the request, so what's in store?

[Zemljanin]

There's a workaround that I think might have been overlooked for this. The site itself doesn't have to use the image.

Oh, yes it does. Otherwise, a yearly number of new accounts could fall to 10%, or even 1% of the earlier one.

If they use an image that makes use of the same xml (ie. same gameplay + same territory coordinates), then you - the enduser - can use a script to replace the picture with whichever image you like. As long as the coordinates match, your experience will be what it always was, and no one on the site will have to break copyright.

Someone, somewhere along the line would have to host the image to be used, but I doubt that will be a problem.

There is no need for hosting, it's better to have the image on computer. But...

Your suggestion seems (to me) more dangerous to lack than actual having an old picture. North American courts are very tough!

IMHO, there are only two solutions:

a) to make a map that resembles enough and still doesn't fall under the copyright. (probably impossible)

b) to make some deal with Hasbro (hope it's possible)

Temporary solution - to live with current base of players...

[BaldAdonis]

you get right on that... I think you are playing with fire.

Are you still scared of fire?
I've been doing it already, to use my favourite image after the Classic revamp fiasco. Doesn't work now though, because the xml changed the coordinates of all the territories. Classic Shapes isn't even the right size.

Oh, yes it does. Otherwise, a yearly number of new accounts could fall to 10%, or even 1% of the earlier one.

Your suggestion seems (to me) more dangerous to lack than actual having an old picture. North American courts are very tough!

I'm not suggesting that this solution will bring in new players. I think the administrations actions in the last week have hurt those numbers already. I'm suggesting that current players would be able to play Classic like they always have before, and all it would take on the site's end is a map that places the territories in the right positions. It can be "Rectangle Art" style, or "Lucky Charms" style, or anything at all that doesn't resemble the Hasbro map. Then the user can swap the image with one they prefer. That way, the user is the one breaking the law, but because they are the only one who will ever see the image, there's no chance they will be forced to stop. I started doing this after the Classic revamp, so that I could just use the same image as I always did.

The image is still up in the foundry if anyone's interested. I'd suggest getting a copy soon, because you never know when they'll disappear (like the versions hosted in /maps/).

[FabledIntegral]

Oh, yes it does. Otherwise, a yearly number of new accounts could fall to 10%, or even 1% of the earlier one.

Your suggestion seems (to me) more dangerous to lack than actual having an old picture. North American courts are very tough!

I'm not suggesting that this solution will bring in new players. I think the administrations actions in the last week have hurt those numbers already. I'm suggesting that current players would be able to play Classic like they always have before, and all it would take on the site's end is a map that places the territories in the right positions. It can be "Rectangle Art" style, or "Lucky Charms" style, or anything at all that doesn't resemble the Hasbro map. Then the user can swap the image with one they prefer. That way, the user is the one breaking the law, but because they are the only one who will ever see the image, there's no chance they will be forced to stop. I started doing this after the Classic revamp, so that I could just use the same image as I always did.

The image is still up in the foundry if anyone's interested. I'd suggest getting a copy soon, because you never know when they'll disappear (like the versions hosted in /maps/).[/quote]

How exactly does one do that? And is the current classic versions in the exact same positioning as it was before to allow this now? Or would changes need to be made.

[BaldAdonis]

How exactly does one do that? And is the current classic versions in the exact same positioning as it was before to allow this now? Or would changes need to be made.

JavaScript -> swap images. The current versions are NOT in the right positions (Classic shapes is not even the right size), so a change would have to be made. I can't find the old version of the Middle Earth xml or map anywhere, but I'm sure it has different positions as well.

I believe it would be possible to write a script that would remove the army numbers from their current position and send them to a new position (and so allow you to use any image you want, as long as it had the same connections), but that would involve configuring the different positions for every territory. The technique is already way outside the scope of my knowledge, and I wouldn't want to write the code (it'd be like rewriting all the xml for a map). Image swapping though, is very easy. It's just one href, where you change the source from cc.com/maps/mapname to wherever you're hosting the image you want. Or two if you want both the small and large to change (I only use one).

[yeti_c]

It won't work for the army counts...

The army numbers are generated by the server and that reads the XML direct and outputs them.

You *Could* do it by putting your own numbers up - but they will look ugly and unsightly due to HTML's constraints.

C.

[jiminski]

It won't work for the army counts...

The army numbers are generated by the server and that reads the XML direct and outputs them.

You *Could* do it by putting your own numbers up - but they will look ugly and unsightly due to HTML's constraints.

C.

this statement is very likely to illustrate my ignorance on these matters... but here goes anyway: could they not be holes in the Graphics (I am thinking of it like layers in Photoshop) so the numbers from the source image can be visible through the dead superficial skin-overlay?

hah.. *jim awaits his lessen in reality.*

[Minister Masket]

...

Bickering like this get's nowhere fast.
Either you can support Lackattack and the other mods/admins, or you can make the problem worse by ruining the experience for everyone else.

[OliverFA]

Just got this from "Crazy Map +Dice" thread. I wonder if Lack got a letter like the one at that site...

by teakwoodsailing on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am

Interesting read:
http://www.monopolizedchaos.com/2008/04 ... st-letter/ teakwoodsailing

Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:41 pm
Private message

IMHO this dude has done the right thing. Reading his blog post I cannot help but feeling sympathy for him. He knows how to communicate with his readers, and anyone who happens to read his blog!

[owenshooter]

IMHO this dude has done the right thing. Reading his blog post I cannot help but feeling sympathy for him. He knows how to communicate with his readers, and anyone who happens to read his blog!

he also doesn't sell a product or make money. it is just his blog's banner that hasbro went after, period. a very poor comparison to what could POSSIBLY be going on. and i'll bet you money he changes it after they send the lawyer probes further up his ass...-0

[yeti_c]

Just got this from "Crazy Map +Dice" thread. I wonder if Lack got a letter like the one at that site...

by teakwoodsailing on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 am

Interesting read:
http://www.monopolizedchaos.com/2008/04 ... st-letter/ teakwoodsailing

Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:41 pm
Private message

IMHO this dude has done the right thing. Reading his blog post I cannot help but feeling sympathy for him. He knows how to communicate with his readers, and anyone who happens to read his blog!

Running a non profit Blog is a completely different ball game to running a profit making game site?

C.