NON FARMERS GUILD - Top 101

[FarangDemon]

Yesterday, I spent the better part of the day compiling this list. It was very exhausting. I have therefor decided to enlist some help with the next edition. If I could get some volunteers, We could do it in an hour or so. And, it would be more accurate as a result, because we could put in some redundancy to compensate for players bouncing on the scoreboard. I am ready and willing to do this right away. And, I will be lowering the threshold, so that the list contains all the top players that are NOT Noob Farmers. Anyone interested in helping out on this project can respond here or by pm.

That is an excellent suggestion. I can provide moral support but I would rather not invest that kind of time in compiling a list until I get a tool that calculates:

Geometric mean RR of last 1000 opponents (or just all opponents if a player has not played 1000)

This is because, as Fruitcake, you, FabledIntegral and myself have all pointed out, it would be possible to cheat a system that computes RR on a rolling basis. I have calculated that using a window of the last 1000 opponents would ensure that an inflated farmer would lose about 3000 points.

I arrived at this number by extending the kind of calculations Fruitcake had posted.

Take a guy who farmed to get to 4000. Then he starts working on his RR to get it down to sqrt(1/2) = 0.71 (a number I like so far in theory because it means half your opponents are peers and half are guys 1/2 your score). If RR is computed on last 100 games, he could do it by playing 75 guys that have 4500 (25 opponents of ratio 1/4's - the noobs - and 75 of ratio 1.125's - the guys with 4500 - gives geometric mean of 0.73).

I used a win rate of 1/3 instead of 1/5 just to be conservative and because I think its conceivable if they are semi-decent. I calculated that in those games, he would win 562 and lose 888 points = -326 points. I think the highest that any player in the current scoreboard is inflated by is about 3000 points, so in order to ensure that an inflated farmer loses 3000 points, the window would need to be multiplied by ten and so extended to 1000 games.

AND as an afterthought, I calculated it for a guy who gets 5800 points and plays against a guy with 4500 in order to get his RR up to acceptable levels. He would get totally hammered, losing 1141 points in a mere window of the 100 last opponents. So using the 1000 opponent window, he will lose even more points than the 4000 point farmer, given equal skill levels, because the conqueror farmer lost about 800 more points than the 4000 point guy in the first 100 opponents of the window.

He would need to play that guy 95 times to get his RR up to 0.72. If the 5800 point guy won 1/3 of the time, he'd win 491 points and lose 1633 points, coming out minus 1141.

I extrapolated the last calculation so the amount actually lost would be somewhat less, because as you sink the amount you lose decreases.

[FarangDemon]

But even my suggested system could still be cheated by a group of players who noob farm their way to the top and then play each other exclusively for the rest of their time at ConquerClub. Farming guild could be used to organize this because it is a group of players whose scores are likely to be inflated past their peer-to-peer skill levels. The top farming dogs could play games with the highest of the farmers in order to not lose too many points and still maintain competitive RR.

Unless one of them is leaps and bounds better than the others head to head, their scores will reach an equilibrium that is near their average score - which no one will be able to touch because it is so inflated.

So..... it's getting complicated and it can still be thwarted by determined farmers.

There would need to be either a requirement to periodically accept challenges or a rule that you have to play x distinct peers where x is a number large enough to prevent the farmers from playing together too much. I don't know how to arrive at x and it seems like a pain in the ass.

(One thing to keep in mind - some have said "there won't be enough peers for high ranked players to play" because there are barely anybody around 4000 points. But if this becomes implemented, farming will decrease and there won't be just like 10 people whose scores are all so much higher than everybody else's who won't be able to find peers easily. The distribution will become tighter and it will be easier for higher ranked players to find peers.)

So..... the only real way (and the simplest by far) to make sure people can't farm is to change the scoring system so that killing players below a certain level relative to you provides no points.

There are two active threads on it now:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=73494

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=73618

[Fruitcake]

Just a thought....

I think we all agree it is increasingly difficult to keep an ER the further up the scoreboard one gets, so why not have a sliding scale EQ. I am unsure if chipv could do something like that, but I have put a list below as an opening gambit.

5000 0.60
4900 0.61
4800 0.62
4700 0.63
4600 0.64
4500 0.65
4400 0.66
4300 0.67
4200 0.68
4100 0.69
4000 0.70
3900 0.71
3800 0.72
3700 0.73
3600 0.74
3500 0.75
3400 0.76
3300 0.77
3200 0.78
3100 0.79
3000 0.80
2900 0.81
2800 0.82
2700 0.83
2600 0.84
2500 0.85
2400 0.86
2300 0.87
2200 0.88
2100 0.89
2000 0.90
1900 0.92
1800 0.94
1700 0.96
1600 0.98
1500 1.00

[chipv]

Just a thought....

I think we all agree it is increasingly difficult to keep an ER the further up the scoreboard one gets, so why not have a sliding scale EQ. I am unsure if chipv could do something like that, but I have put a list below as an opening gambit.

Sliding scale is zero problem to actually code. I am still waiting to see a consensus. There appears to be problems with every suggestion, so for the moment I am keeping RR as it is until a convincing alternative can be agreed upon by the majority of sensible posters. The problem with this sliding scale is that it is not much better than the fixed levels we have now because the current scores happen to suit the sliding scale. Add more new members to the score pot and at some point I will have to revisit the scale again.

[khazalid]

sweet, tops 40's. my mother would be so proud

[Qwert]

how many you need to have to be on these list?
i have 0.861

[Fruitcake]

Just a thought....

I think we all agree it is increasingly difficult to keep an ER the further up the scoreboard one gets, so why not have a sliding scale EQ. I am unsure if chipv could do something like that, but I have put a list below as an opening gambit.

The problem with this sliding scale is that it is not much better than the fixed levels we have now because the current scores happen to suit the sliding scale. Add more new members to the score pot and at some point I will have to revisit the scale again.

Good point.

So the issue is this. Would a sliding scale be a better reflection? if so, then we can review the next step of deciding whether the table I have placed above is a good starting point, and if so, when and how is it reviewed when point inflation is factored in?

[kenbeuken]

I guess I am considered a farmer?

[KoE_Sirius]

I guess I am considered a farmer?

Yeah,but you arent very good at it so you do not count lol

[porkenbeans]

I guess I am considered a farmer?

No you are not a farmer. Your RR is 0.692, which classifies you as point hoarder. You would need to raise that score to 0.800 to become an E.Q. Chip is working to revise the cutoff points, and I have allready stated that the next list will include all with 0.600 or higher. ...Stay tuned.

[porkenbeans]

how many you need to have to be on these list?
i have 0.861

You are 236 points away from Herrikilla, who bottoms out the list.

[porkenbeans]

Just a thought....

I think we all agree it is increasingly difficult to keep an ER the further up the scoreboard one gets, so why not have a sliding scale EQ. I am unsure if chipv could do something like that, but I have put a list below as an opening gambit.

5000 0.60
4900 0.61
4800 0.62
4700 0.63
4600 0.64
4500 0.65
4400 0.66
4300 0.67
4200 0.68
4100 0.69
4000 0.70
3900 0.71
3800 0.72
3700 0.73
3600 0.74
3500 0.75
3400 0.76
3300 0.77
3200 0.78
3100 0.79
3000 0.80
2900 0.81
2800 0.82
2700 0.83
2600 0.84
2500 0.85
2400 0.86
2300 0.87
2200 0.88
2100 0.89
2000 0.90
1900 0.92
1800 0.94
1700 0.96
1600 0.98
1500 1.00

Yes, Yes, Yes. This is just the kind of discussion that I was shooting for when I posted this list. The sliding scale is exactly the kind of thing that I support.

[Jeff Hardy]

farming isnt allowed now so i think you can forget this thread and just go by what the scoreboard says

[kenbeuken]

I would like to know how in world I am supposed to achieve a .80, (what ever that irrelevant number means) when I have been a colonel for over a year and there are only 90 or so people on all of cc with higher points than me (many of whom only play freestyle or other game types that I will not touch.) The only way I could raise my score is to play those people exclusively which is simply unrealistic.

[Jeff Hardy]

I would like to know how in world I am supposed to achieve a .80, (what ever that irrelevant number means) when I have been a colonel for over a year and there are only 90 or so people on all of cc with higher points than me (many of whom only play freestyle or other game types that I will not touch.) The only way I could raise my score is to play those people exclusively which is simply unrealistic.

in other words, map rank doesnt work properly for what porkenbeans is trying to accomplish

[Herakilla]

rofl i love how im 101 XD

[porkenbeans]

rofl i love how im 101 XD

Could not resist.

[Qwert]

by porkenbeans » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:37 pm

qwert wrote:
how many you need to have to be on these list?
i have 0.861

You are 236 points away from Herrikilla, who bottoms out the list.

i dont know what map rank scrip you use,but i use Chipv,and he say

Qwert
0.861

Herrakila
0.823

[The Neon Peon]

qwert, it is the top 100 people in score who have that map rank status. Yours might be higher than other's, but your score does not fit into the top 100, and neither does mine.

[porkenbeans]

qwert, it is the top 100 people in score who have that map rank status. Yours might be higher than other's, but your score does not fit into the top 100, and neither does mine.

Yes, Neon is correct. Your RR certainly qualifies you. You only need a few more points on the leaderboard to get into the top 101.

[The Neon Peon]

I just checked my map rank, after chipv helped me get it working. Apparently, my highest map-rank is a corporal 1st class. rofl. That is beastly specializing, right there.

[porkenbeans]

I just checked my map rank, after chipv helped me get it working. Apparently, my highest map-rank is a corporal 1st class. rofl. That is beastly specializing, right there.

Im pretty sure that, that only means that you earned enough points on that 1 map to rise to corp.1st. class. But if that is your highest map, It sure goes to show that with such an overall high score, You are no specialist.

[Fruitcake]

I would like to know how in world I am supposed to achieve a .80, (what ever that irrelevant number means) when I have been a colonel for over a year and there are only 90 or so people on all of cc with higher points than me (many of whom only play freestyle or other game types that I will not touch.) The only way I could raise my score is to play those people exclusively which is simply unrealistic.

in other words, map rank doesnt work properly for what porkenbeans is trying to accomplish

Well actually if he played anyone on the front page or even on the second page he would increase his map rank. With a present rank of 0.692, and a score of 2907, basically anyone over 2000 points (give or take the loose change) would increase his map rank.

[The Neon Peon]

Im pretty sure that, that only means that you earned enough points on that 1 map to rise to corp.1st. class.

Yeah, I know. But I find it funny that there is not even one map that I win a heck of a lot on.

[Fruitcake]

I just checked my map rank, after chipv helped me get it working. Apparently, my highest map-rank is a corporal 1st class. rofl. That is beastly specializing, right there.

Im pretty sure that, that only means that you earned enough points on that 1 map to rise to corp.1st. class.

Indeed you are correct pb, his map rank is very good at 0.976