Conquer Club

The new Classic rendition has clearly stirred a lot of opinion in the CC Community, yet a thread has existed for some time now in The Map Foundry. -A thread which ANYONE could have visited and given their opinion at any time during the revamp.

As someone who has contributed to the Foundry, (I hope you like my Civil War map, it's my personal favorite! ) I know how long and arduous the map making process is.

The Foundry has tried many ways to get more players to come check out what's in progress and provide opinion/ideas, but it still seems that a relative few individuals actually take time to visit and give their input.

So, just for the hell of it, I ask for your honest answer to this poll...

Elijah S wrote:The new Classic rendition has clearly stirred a lot of opinion in the CC Community, yet a thread has existed for some time now in The Map Foundry. -A thread which ANYONE could have visited and given their opinion at any time during the revamp.

As someone who has contributed to the Foundry, (I hope you like my Civil War map, it's my personal favorite! ) I know how long and arduous the map making process is.

The Foundry has tried many ways to get more players to come check out what's in progress and provide opinion/ideas, but it still seems that a relative few individuals actually take time to visit and give their input.

So, just for the hell of it, I ask for your honest answer to this poll...

Great map by the way mate.. i too love to play on it, thank you very much!

and hehehe, yeas the Foundry has tried many ways to get people in... the best way was to change everyones favourite map, cause uproar and then tell the rest of the community it was our own fault for not knowing what we did not know.

I appreciate all your work guys.. but in the same way that i appreciate the work Bob Marley; i love to revel in his dulcet majesty and absorb the glow of second-hand genius. It inspires and improves the quality of my life! As does the Foundry.

But if the great man were alive, would i darken his Kingston stage with a drunken, off-key rendition of Redemption songs?
Would i expect to add input to the constructing of his perfect lyrics?
"Bobby, Bobby ... it's all so Pigeon!.. your syntax is all over the place! try this: 'historical Pirates yes they displaced my ancestors, heinously Sold them to the Merchant ships.. minutes after they removed them from the vessels hold....." etc etc etc.

no my input would not be appreciated and nor would everyones presence and imposition on the foundry... we do not know what we are talking about. The way it works now; with a group of creative and motivated map makers working with advisers, is perfect!
Creativity needs freedom and you have the correct balance to create great maps.... mixed in with one or 2 lemons.

The problem only comes when you change a well known and loved map. I mean you could not have much more so with Classic could you ... what were you thinking really!?

Due to the fact that very few users visit the Foundry, the change was like a hammer blow, it came out of nowhere for the majority; who had not had time to comment or adjust. You had just imposed a change on us .. like mother when she goes into a teenagers room and tidies up, moves everything around and steels your pot. .. not happy!

Saying this, you do not honestly want all and sundry commenting and clogging your finely balanced habitat!
When you make such a change, you should come out of your hamlet and makes sure that your findings are posted in General Forum prior to Quenching! .. as a Sticky perhaps! (Perhaps even on the Game Page to ensure those who do not visit the forums get a say.

We are told that a thread was posted in General but i, who come to the Forums regularly saw nothing!
It is all well and good to hold the oppinion that if people do not visit the forum they have no right to an opinion .. but that is very bad and mean spirited.

It is also... and this is very important... not good for business to have a group of individuals, with no vested interest in the success of business, wielding carte blanche power over the flag-ship tools of the the business!

jiminski wrote:
no my input would not be appreciated and nor would everyones presence and imposition on the foundry... we do not know what we are talking about. The way it works now; with a group of creative and motivated map makers working with advisers, is perfect!
Creativity needs freedom and you have the correct balance to create great maps.... mixed in with one or 2 lemons.

actually any input is appreciated as long as it is articulated and decent. a fresh pair of eyes and a new opinion always helps.
nobody was born a wise man, we all started at the same level so not knowing what the foundry is about isn't a reason no to visit. just take your time and read the threads and in no time you'll know what to post or not and what kind of feedback are we seeking.

jiminski wrote:The problem only comes when you change a well known and loved map. I mean you could not have much more so with Classic could you ... what were you thinking really!?

the classic map in it's former shape was hideous and it would have never gotten past the foundry rules. visibility problems, names overlapping borders colours not matching, etc. the new one is much much better. but change is always hard even if it is for a better thing. you'll get used to it though.

jiminski wrote:Due to the fact that very few users visit the Foundry, the change was like a hammer blow, it came out of nowhere for the majority; who had not had time to comment or adjust. You had just imposed a change on us .. like mother when she goes into a teenagers room and tidies up, moves everything around and steels your pot. .. not happy!

nobody imposed anything. the classic thread was started a long time ago. everybody had the chance to stop by and give feedback and if more people came and posted maybe the outcome would have been different. those that don't like it have only themselves to blame for not visiting the foundry.

jiminski wrote:Saying this, you do not honestly want all and sundry commenting and spamming your finely balanced habit!
When you make such a change, you should come out of your hamlet and makes sure that your findings are posted in General Forum prior to Quanching! .. as a Sticky perhaps! (Perhaps even on the Game Page to ensure those who do not visit the forums get a say.

why put things in general forum when we have the foundry?? and if we put a thread for classic in GD then why nt put a thread for every map? heck, let's move the foundry here.

what part of the foundry description is hard to understand??

Map Foundry
This is where maps get made. Check out what's in development and give us some feedback.

maps get made, please come and give feedback, etc.
perhaps it should be changed to something like this:

Map Foundry
This is where maps get made. Check out what's in development and give us some feedback If you don't give feedback then STFU and don't complain when a map that doesn't suit your taste gets quenched.

you are an excellent guy Dim but on this matter, you can not see further than your own nose.

All voices are appreciated? .. it's just not true.. it is an esoteric and cliquey environment!

I know now that the Classic map has a thread there but finding it is still a nightmare without a thread link!
the place is a maze to the new comer. I have made comments before.. they were either ignored or talked down to.

So please.. don't give me that.. "we work perfectly it is your fault for not contributing."

the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

the new changes have made it worse .. less readable, less clearly defined and just plain awful! you have to accept, if the foundry can take themselves out of their own agenda for a moment, that some things are based upon emotion when it comes to tradition.
the Classic map may be like the old mongrel dog .. a little scruffy, a little stinky and sometimes hard to look at but he is our Stinky Mongrel and we love him... Now if you had swapped our stinky dog for a shiny, new, pedigree Doberman who will fetch the newspaper and do the dishes, we may have been swayed eventually.

You did not, you gave us a slightly smellier Mongrel, who bites you if you look at it wrong.

jiminski wrote:
the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

Confusing perfect and what you're used to is a very common and unfortunate habit shared by many. In situations more important than this (which, I suppose, is basically all of them) it is the cause for people living very crappy lives.

detlef wrote:

jiminski wrote:
the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

Confusing perfect and what you're used to is a very common and unfortunate habit shared by many. In situations more important than this (which, I suppose, is basically all of them) it is the cause for people living very crappy lives.

very true and wise words detlef.

i visit the foundry regularly now but i do not enter any of the threads that are over 10 pages long.

i like to read the thread from the beginning, each and every page to see how the map develops. by the time i get to the last page i feel i have an understanding of what the creator is trying to do & whether or not someone has already suggested what i was thinking to improve it (if i have anything at all). i then keep on top of that thread.

those long ones are just to much so perhaps if you are going to redo a map, post something in GD when you are near the end of the process with a short summary of what has transpired including ideas that have been rejected.

detlef wrote:

jiminski wrote:
the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

Confusing perfect and what you're used to is a very common and unfortunate habit shared by many. In situations more important than this (which, I suppose, is basically all of them) it is the cause for people living very crappy lives.

typical of the arrogance being shown in this argument .. and please don't confuse my ire for arrogance! this change was imposed upon me!

'the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes...'

Perfection, unlike 'efficient' engenders a whole realm of subjective components. the fact that it is in 'many peoples eyes' accepts that perfection may well be flawed when looked at objectively. However Objectivity is fundamentally flawed as it is the battle cry of the subjective who perceive their view to be without flaw!

DiM wrote:

detlef wrote:

jiminski wrote:
the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

Confusing perfect and what you're used to is a very common and unfortunate habit shared by many. In situations more important than this (which, I suppose, is basically all of them) it is the cause for people living very crappy lives.

very true and wise words detlef.

Incorrect! the words were perfectly paradoxical and gave a hint at the superficiality of his character.

jiminski wrote:All voices are appreciated? .. it's just not true.. it is an esoteric and cliquey environment!

are you sure?? if it is so cliquey, then how come the foundry is experiencing an al time boom of new people coming and making maps and givng feedback?? my GOD, HOW were they accepted??? WHO dared?
oh wait, how come i was accepted when i first came to the foundry? that's strange

jiminski wrote:I know now that the Classic map has a thread there but finding it is still a nightmare without a thread link!
the place is a maze to the new comer.

1. the map was in the place where all maps go when they are ready to be quenched, the forge subforum. let's take a look at the description of that subforum:

Final Forge
Maps that may be nearing the end of production. Finalize maps here.

i guess that should give you a hint on maps that are ready for live play.

also right in the foundry there's an announcement. you can't miss it cause it's the only one and what does that announcement say???

How a Map Progresses Through the Fondry

Map Idea
All maps start life in the foundry as an idea in the "Map Ideas" sub fourm. Here maps must gain their ideas stamp before being moved into full production in the main foundry.

Main Foundry
Here is where the bulk of a maps development takes place. Gameplay and graphics will go under discussed at this point to ensure that:
o Gameplay is balanced
o Graphics are of a suitable foundry standard.
Final Forge
To reach final forge you must aquire three further stamps in the main foundry for gameplay, graphics and the final forge entry stamp. Both large and small maps must be present before final forge can be approved.

Once moved to the final forge sub forum a maps XML should go under development[size=9] (Although theres nothing stopping a cartographer starting their XML earlier in the process) and nit picking of the map will be begin.

Quenching
After a map recieves it stamp for XML and all nit picking discussion has been concluded the foundry foreman will stamp the map as quenched to complete the process.

Congratulations! You have just complete your map, enjoy!

wow a perfect description of how the foundry works and where you can find what you want.

and that's not all there's also a sticky thread "Develpmental Atlas" that contains links to all the maps in development or in final forge. yes that also includes the classic map.

how hard is it to read an announcement or to click on a link??

oh and that's not all, did you know the forum has a wonderful tool called search?? wow.

jiminski wrote:I have made comments before.. they were either ignored or talked down to.

if the comments were stupid, spammish or even about something previously discussed then it's natural to be ignored.

if you come and say "this sucks" you'll most likely be ignored, however if you also include why it sucks and perhaps offer a detailed description of what you'd want that to be then for sure your post will be taken into consideration.

jiminski wrote:So please.. don't give me that.. "we work perfectly it is your fault for not contributing."

actually i didn't say we work perfectly. i clearly stated we rely on feedback. quality feedback not spam bullshit and other crap. but it is still your fault for not contributing.

jiminski wrote:the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

detlef explained this one perfectly in the post above.

DiM wrote:

jiminski wrote:the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

detlef explained this one perfectly in the post above.

see above..

God you guys are exasperating ... the system did not work! Saying it should have because everything is great, is so irrelevant it's not funny.

the system usually works but not this time, this time is a 'very specific' situation!

pull your heads out of your rears and stop being so closed off please.

I am saying that in every other situation the output from the foundry 'close' to perfect! and that its structure is conducive to the best result!

Can we not meet in the middle? Most people were not aware that changes were being made, it's a fact!

So either in this 'very specific' situation you make the whole site change their behaviour or you accept a very tiny but very important flaw and rectify it!

jiminski wrote:
this change was imposed upon me!

wrong again. this change wasn't imposed on anybody. the map revamp was up for debate for more than 10 weeks. in this time people were asked to give feedback to make it better. when a consensus was reached it was quenched.

if you don't go to the elections you can't say the president was imposed on you. you had your chance to vote.

jiminski wrote:

DiM wrote:

jiminski wrote:the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

detlef explained this one perfectly in the post above.

see above

same here. you should also look above and respond to my whole post

jiminski wrote:

detlef wrote:

jiminski wrote:
the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes.. it is what we are used to ..

Confusing perfect and what you're used to is a very common and unfortunate habit shared by many. In situations more important than this (which, I suppose, is basically all of them) it is the cause for people living very crappy lives.

typical of the arrogance being shown in this argument .. and please don't confuse my ire for arrogance! this change was imposed upon me!

'the Classic was perfect in many peoples eyes...'

Perfection, unlike 'efficient' engenders a whole realm of subjective components. the fact that it is in 'many peoples eyes' accepts that perfection may well be flawed when looked at objectively. However Objectivity is fundamentally flawed as it is the battle cry of the subjective who perceive their view to be without flaw!

Excuse me? How is anyone supposed to read what you posted and not infer that your basis for perfection is not, in fact, something that you're used to. That's not me being arrogant or superficial, that's me reading words you freaking wrote and taking them on face value.

OK, this is where I "insult" you guys again by bringing up how childish you are all acting. Since the first one of these posts that spoke for "We the people of CC" was started, anyone who wasn't 100% on board was shouted down. You know what's arrogant? To think that 100 people jumping up and down and completely ignoring proper use of an on-line forum "but it's OK because this is really important to you" speak for everyone.

Don't think for a second you know a damned thing about my character. If you ever want to be exposed as an absolute prick, throw out off-handed questions of someone's character because they don't agree with you.

DiM wrote:
same here. you should also look above and respond to my whole post

see above.

detlef wrote:
Don't think for a second you have a shred of insight as to my character.

maybe not but you keep making it very apparent that you can not grasp complex concepts.

jiminski wrote:

detlef wrote:

jiminski wrote:
Don't think for a second you have a shred of insight as to my character.

maybe not but you keep making it very apparent that you can not grasp complex concepts.

And, for the most part, it seems rather apparent that you guys can't grasp very simple ones. You know what, I really don't give two shits about which Classic map you guys decide on.

My only issue all along has been with the childish manner you all have been behaving. First when you guys felt you needed 10 different threads saying the same thing, then when you bitched about the fact that the mods merged them "because this was really important".

Don't think for a second that I don't understand what you guys are saying or I can't grasp your logic. I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I also understand that not one of you has taken a moment to step outside you worked up state to look at what a bunch of children you are all acting like.

detlef wrote:
And, for the most part, it seems rather apparent that you guys can't grasp very simple ones. You know what, I really don't give two shits about which Classic map you guys decide on.

My only issue all along has been with the childish manner you all have been behaving. First when you guys felt you needed 10 different threads saying the same thing, then when you bitched about the fact that the mods merged them "because this was really important".

Don't think for a second that I don't understand what you guys are saying or I can't grasp your logic. I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I also understand that not one of you has taken a moment to step outside you worked up state to look at what a bunch of children you are all acting like.

hehe calling people children does not make the action that of an adult.

the point is and for whatever reason, the change came completely out of nowhere to most of us! (no finger pointing please it is the fact of the matter)
So yes people got angry, part of which was due to genuine anger but also due to the fact that so many things change and do not get changed back! So the level of protest, though abhorrent to you, was absolutely necessary!

To say someone who gets angry and tries to exact change in the face of probability is childish, gives another insight into your character ..wow i will be able to write your biography soon

DiM wrote:

jiminski wrote:
this change was imposed upon me!

wrong again. this change wasn't imposed on anybody. the map revamp was up for debate for more than 10 weeks. in this time people were asked to give feedback to make it better. when a consensus was reached it was quenched.

if you don't go to the elections you can't say the president was imposed on you. you had your chance to vote.

i have to disagree with you there DiM, the players did vote. they voted so many times each and every week that the classic map was easily the most played map. so in their eyes it was the best map to play on.

jiminski wrote:

detlef wrote:
And, for the most part, it seems rather apparent that you guys can't grasp very simple ones. You know what, I really don't give two shits about which Classic map you guys decide on.

My only issue all along has been with the childish manner you all have been behaving. First when you guys felt you needed 10 different threads saying the same thing, then when you bitched about the fact that the mods merged them "because this was really important".

Don't think for a second that I don't understand what you guys are saying or I can't grasp your logic. I understand exactly what you guys are saying. I also understand that not one of you has taken a moment to step outside you worked up state to look at what a bunch of children you are all acting like.

hehe calling people children does not make the action that of an adult.

Gee, I guess you got me. Carry on with your very mature tantrum.

detlef wrote:Gee, I guess you got me. Carry on with your very mature tantrum.

see above

greenoaks wrote:

DiM wrote:

jiminski wrote:
this change was imposed upon me!

wrong again. this change wasn't imposed on anybody. the map revamp was up for debate for more than 10 weeks. in this time people were asked to give feedback to make it better. when a consensus was reached it was quenched.

if you don't go to the elections you can't say the president was imposed on you. you had your chance to vote.

i have to disagree with you there DiM, the players did vote. they voted so many times each and every week that the classic map was easily the most played map. so in their eyes it was the best map to play on.

the fact that the classic is the most played has nothing to do with the revamp. the fact that people play a map and like it doesn't mean that map can't be improved through a revamp.

to keep the election analogy if you and your buddies talk about obama all the time and how you like him but neither of you goes to vote for him and hillary gets elected, you still have no right to complain regardless of the fact you like obama

jiminski wrote:

detlef wrote:Gee, I guess you got me. Carry on with your very mature tantrum.

see above

Sorry, that's too complex a concept for me to grasp. What is this "above" you speak of? I'm confused.

DiM wrote:
the fact that the classic is the most played has nothing to do with the revamp. the fact that people play a map and like it doesn't mean that map can't be improved through a revamp.

to keep the election analogy if you and your buddies talk about obama all the time and how you like him but neither of you goes to vote for him and hillary gets elected, you still have no right to complain regardless of the fact you like obama

ok empty analogies ... If Bush pretends to hold an election and falsifies election lists, to exclude a large proportion of the electorate; Who are no permitted to vote (as he marks them down as incarcerated for example) then the election is a farce and can not be judged to be the will of the majority of the people.

To blame the majority for not be enabled to vote and say they have no valid opinion as to the result, is very very manipulative of the facts.

you should be in African politics DIM