Tactics - Classic Flat

[hulmey]

Game Number - Game 3268163

The above screen shot was taken a few rounds just after the turning point of the game.

I'm green and had
25 on venezula
25 on Peru
25 on Brazil
21 on Ural

Yellow had around 50 armies on North Africa,Egypt and East Africa.
Red was roughly the same as he now is in the screen shot.
blue didn't have the 25 on Mongolia and the 22 were in a defensive position on Greenland.

2 rounds before this RED attacked Ural forcing me to attack either blue in CA or Yellow in North Africa. This is the only way i could get a card and i was trapped.

I showed restraint and didn't take a card but moved the 15 of Peru onto Brazil into a attacking position. I asked yellow to kindly move his armies so i could get out and resettle in either Asia or Europe, so that I could take a card at least. This would mean destroying his one round bonus of 3!

His reaction was to cash and attack my 40 stack leaving me with 25 on Venezula and 10 o Brazil. I then moved all these on brazil and suicided into Yellow.


Was i right or wrong? Was it bad play? Did red make the initial bad play by forcing me into a corner? (hoping i would attack blue's 25 for a card). Was yellow in the wrong for not allowing me to escape from SA and thus be able to take a card.

Discuss (should be interesting).

[KoE_Sirius]

Yellow was wrong to attack you.Red played well by forcing you into a corner..SA is never a good conti to occupy.The smartest move would have been to wait for yellows approval before forting a big army on to his border.
If you couldn't get yellows approval work on blues .

[Deadly intent]

when i attacked Hulmey,he was game leader on Armies & held SA.He had over 20 armies in Ural while I was holding Oz.I felt uncomfortable looking down the barrel of a gun so i attacked him & kicked him out of Asia
I knew by doing this that Hulmey would have to do something drastic to get a card & because blue was by now game leader,i believed it would be him from who"m he would attack...i was wrong
Instead you went for yellow,not just once but many times,weakening you both & taking you both out of the game!
No Humley,i feel my tactics were spot on mate....if i am guilty of anything it is of under estimating your judgement.
Yes you asked yellow to move,but like you stated in chat,that was only so you could get to me to try to take me out with you!
Had you have played it cool & gone for blue,or negotiated with him like has been suggested,yellow & i would have had to slug it out for a bit & you could well have recovered (at blues exspence more likely),but you didnt,you spat out dummy & suicided on yellow!
Ok yellow may not should have gone for you,but can you blame him after you threatened to throw all you had at him?
....your tactics should be in question here,not mine my friend,

[hulmey]

when i attacked Hulmey,he was game leader on Armies & held SA.He had over 20 armies in Ural while I was holding Oz.I felt uncomfortable looking down the barrel of a gun so i attacked him & kicked him out of Asia
I knew by doing this that Hulmey would have to do something drastic to get a card & because blue was by now game leader,i believed it would be him from who"m he would attack...i was wrong
Instead you went for yellow,not just once but many times,weakening you both & taking you both out of the game!
No Humley,i feel my tactics were spot on mate....if i am guilty of anything it is of under estimating your judgement.
Yes you asked yellow to move,but like you stated in chat,that was only so you could get to me to try to take me out with you!
Had you have played it cool & gone for blue,or negotiated with him like has been suggested,yellow & i would have had to slug it out for a bit & you could well have recovered (at blues exspence more likely),but you didnt,you spat out dummy & suicided on yellow!
Ok yellow may not should have gone for you,but can you blame him after you threatened to throw all you had at him?
....your tactics should be in question here,not mine my friend,

Thats incorrect. Yellow actually attacked me first and had bloody good dice. Please if we are going to discuss this lets tell the truth

And he attacked me even though i asked for him to move, he didnt move and then i moved my troops into a offensive position and he attacked me again!!

[hulmey]

Furthermore,

I blame you for putting me in that position. Did you really think i would attack blue's stack of 25 for one card? That would mean losing 30% of my armies for a card. Hellllllllllooooooooo, i dont think so...Blue being leader would not have negotiated with me and that left yellow who gave me his answer when he attacked me first.

You took a risk to turn the game in your favor and it was a bad decision, made even worse when yellow attacked me

[Haggis_McMutton]

2008-10-04 06:06:04 - hulmey: wtf red, that was poor play
2008-10-04 10:57:52 - Deadly intent: eh! May i ask why please green?....you were a threat & it didnt look like you wernt gunna break anything with them,they had to go
2008-10-04 10:59:42 - Deadly intent: they were making me very nervous
2008-10-04 11:27:00 - hulmey: yellow move out the way im coming out
2008-10-04 11:27:35 - hulmey: u had no need to attack me yellow i wasnt a threat
2008-10-04 11:27:49 - hulmey: bunch of idiots if u ask me
2008-10-04 11:28:03 - hulmey: if u dont move yellow i will crush u with eeverything i got
2008-10-04 11:28:37 - hulmey: i prefer to cursh into red
2008-10-04 11:32:12 - ELE: you have 40 ejercitos.....i think that you atack nor africa
2008-10-04 13:52:06 - Deadly intent: oh come on green mate dont be like that,there is still plenty of play in this game without handing the game to blue on a silver platter
2008-10-04 15:24:02 - Deadly intent: when i attacked you in Asia you were army leader & had a large force looming over me...tactically it was a good move by me,trying to force you to attack an another player in order to break out of SA....surely you can see that tactically......
2008-10-04 15:25:51 - Deadly intent: ......it was the move for me to make.im sure you would have done the same
2008-10-04 15:58:47 - hulmey: next time think of ur actions before cornering me and not even letting me get a card!!
2008-10-04 15:59:27 - hulmey: and then to cap it off . that dumbass yellow attacks me
2008-10-04 15:59:47 - hulmey: sorry red but ur a poor player and what did u thibnk would happen
2008-10-04 17:02:00 - spinbot: Hey I dont have this on a platter. I just counted 49 red armies between me and a real tasty looking Australia!!
2008-10-04 18:04:36 - hulmey: gg guys
2008-10-04 18:06:37 - Deadly intent: to be honest green i would have expected you to take it how i would have,on the chin.Perhaps had you have used those armies to dent blue instead of just building a big army in Asia,i may have acted differently.
2008-10-04 18:09:54 - Deadly intent: & you call me a bad player,yet it is you that is handing the game to blue!!...dont worry we will not be doing battle again my friend,i play sore losers
2008-10-05 05:33:52 - Deadly intent: yes green,you should give yourself a pat on the back here mate as you have now proven that your an arsehole in your game play aswell as in the forums....
2008-10-05 10:47:51 - hulmey: lol red....what do you expect?
2008-10-05 10:48:29 - hulmey: those 20 were there so 1. i could get a card, 2.break someone (probbably blue) if he was getting to far ahead in the game
2008-10-05 10:49:16 - hulmey: you smashed my ability to even get a card, forced yellow into fearing i would break him for a card and stopped any chance of me winning the game
2008-10-05 10:50:18 - hulmey: u said 2008-10-04 10:59:42 - Deadly intent: they were making me very nervous
2008-10-05 10:50:37 - hulmey: thats the reason wars are started
2008-10-05 11:15:28 - Deadly intent: yes i pushed you in a corner,yes i did take your ability away to get a card & yes i was banking you would have to break someone to get your card.Unfortunately i was hoping that it was blue you would break,not yellow as blue was game leader. .........
2008-10-05 11:28:18 - Deadly intent: ....is this not part of the game?...However i was wrong as i didnt take into consideration, the "tit" factor with you chosing to attack yellow & give the game to blue lol....so i agree it is my fault as i thought you a more sensible player/sportsman.
2008-10-05 11:29:09 - hulmey: so you ruined my game by forcing me to break blue and give the power positio (aussie)
2008-10-05 11:29:26 - hulmey: well im sorry but you fuked my game and now ive returned the favour
2008-10-05 11:30:44 - hulmey: sportsman are ucrazy
2008-10-05 11:31:01 - hulmey: you didnt even give me a reach around after you thrust it into my arse
2008-10-05 11:31:12 - Deadly intent: Sorry ELE,my opoligies,had i have known he was this irrational,i would not have attacked him in Asia
2008-10-05 11:31:46 - hulmey: irratinaol
2008-10-05 11:31:51 - hulmey: your a cock
2008-10-05 11:32:01 - hulmey: move on and ur foed anyway
2008-10-05 11:35:37 - Deadly intent: gg green lol
2008-10-05 11:41:12 - hulmey: cant say the same to you
2008-10-05 11:41:20 - hulmey: gg blue
2008-10-05 11:42:14 - ELE: no problem red gg
2008-10-05 11:42:23 - ELE: gg green lol
2008-10-05 11:42:28 - ELE: gg blue
2008-10-05 11:49:43 - Deadly intent: gg blue well played
2008-10-05 11:55:24 - spinbot: good game all

As far as i can see from here, red pushed you in a corner, you get mad, start making threats, yellow doesn`t respond well to threats and knocks you down a notch, so you get madder and suicide, throwing the game.
Plus you didn`t even manage to annoy red
Red, had no way to know you would react so violently to not being able to get a card for a turn or two, in a flat rate game. I think his move was good.
Yellow`s move was odd, but i`ve got to admit, i`ve almost made some stupid moves too when verbally threatened like that.

"yellow move out the way im coming out
bunch of idiots if u ask me
if u dont move yellow i will crush u with eeverything i got"

Not a very good way to ask someone for a favor, it`s annoying and i find most players(except those with a very high score probably) will rather lose some points and make sure you don`t win either when you make threats like that.

I`d say it`s pretty much your mistake, for taking it so personally.

Now that`s just my opinion, don`t take that personally too

[Iron Butterfly]

If I had a dollar for everytime I wanted to post on these boards when the game was lost to me because someone didnt play the way I thought ...well Id have a few bucks.

Why should anyone do your bidding in order to help you out?

The fact you wish to suicide red out of spite and your overall attitude in game chat pretty much sums everything up.

There are many different strategies in game and outcomes dependent on dice and whos point of view one is speaking from. Yours is just one perspective. It doesnt make you right.

[Zemljanin]

Was i right or wrong?

You were totally wrong. Your threat to yellow was silly. I'm not even going to comment later suicide...

Red did right to wipe you of the Ural

I have no clear picture how strong was yellow at the time.
If he was strong, you should just accept to receive 5 units each turn, without taking cards. You'd probably get your chance later, maybe even very soon.
If he was much weaker than blue, you should ask yellow for peace and attack blue in SA.

[Frop]

Poor play of all of you to let a classic flat rate turn into such a building game.

[Robinette]

Well I play mostly 6p esc, but I have played enough Flat Rate to be able to make a few observations...

1) Red made a brilliant strategic play by land-locking you to SA.

2) Green overreacted to the loss of card production, which was only causing the loss of about 1 1/2 armies per turn... avg cash of 8 per set or 2.7 per turn less the avg cost per card of 1.3 armies, 2.7-1.3=1.4,,, and even a best case scenario of cashing 10 per set or 3.33 per turn combined with perfect attacks for every card leaves you short just 2 1/3 armies per turn, 3.33-1.0=2.33

3) I would have tried to use better diplomacy to regain a safe presence in Eurasia to regain card production, not to get even with Red.

4) Yellow made a tactile error in attacking green, but greens reaction to this attack destroyed them both. + =


Just my opinion of course... and I do not claim to be a flat rate expert...
Athough for 6-8 player std seq FLAT Classic I have won 36%, with a 74% kill ratio

[sully800]

Agreed with Robin. Red made a great move.

Green got desperate for a card which is not necessary. Then again moving the armies onto Brazil and requesting an escape is not a bad play (I probably wouldn't have done it because I don't like to ask for things, I might have moved the troops).

Yellow made the big mistake of attacking Brazil for no reason other than troop movements. You need to be much more controlled in a flat rate game, and there was no reason to attack.

Green overreacts again and suicides out of anger- not necessary, but understandable.

Blue plays it great by standing quietly on the sidelines.

[hulmey]

Agreed with Robin. Red made a great move.

Green got desperate for a card which is not necessary. Then again moving the armies onto Brazil and requesting an escape is not a bad play (I probably wouldn't have done it because I don't like to ask for things, I might have moved the troops).

Yellow made the big mistake of attacking Brazil for no reason other than troop movements. You need to be much more controlled in a flat rate game, and there was no reason to attack.

Green overreacts again and suicides out of anger- not necessary, but understandable.

Blue plays it great by standing quietly on the sidelines.

To be honest...Red's move pissed me off because i was in a position of power....70 armies in SA and 21 roaming in Ural, which i was going to use to more than likely break blue. RED was no threat to me. In a FLAT game you need cards espically with blue getting a deploy of 10 every round. blues next move would have been to move into SA and get a 3 bonus and still have 3 defense areas

However REd kicked me out of ural leaving me card less and then yellow killed half my armies. blue sitting there with a deploy of 10 and 5 cards would easily have killed my now remaining 25 armies! So yes yellow played bad but red forced both mine and yellows decisions. I wish yellow would join the discussion.

[hulmey]

Well I play mostly 6p esc, but I have played enough Flat Rate to be able to make a few observations...

1) Red made a brilliant strategic play by land-locking you to SA.

2) Green overreacted to the loss of card production, which was only causing the loss of about 1 1/2 armies per turn... avg cash of 8 per set or 2.7 per turn less the avg cost per card of 1.3 armies, 2.7-1.3=1.4,,, and even a best case scenario of cashing 10 per set or 3.33 per turn combined with perfect attacks for every card leaves you short just 2 1/3 armies per turn, 3.33-1.0=2.33

3) I would have tried to use better diplomacy to regain a safe presence in Eurasia to regain card production, not to get even with Red.

4) Yellow made a tactile error in attacking green, but greens reaction to this attack destroyed them both. + =


Just my opinion of course... and I do not claim to be a flat rate expert...
Athough for 6-8 player std seq FLAT Classic I have won 36%, with a 74% kill ratio

I'd disagree with you here. Sully is hitting the nail on the head

[Deadly intent]

To be honest...Red's move pissed me off because i was in a position of power....70 armies in SA and 21 roaming in Ural

And this is why i attacked you Hulmey,cant you see this my friend?
In game you called me a poor player & blame me for your demise. Your entitled to your opinion & i respect that,but it doesnt make you right & as your own pole suggests,the mojority think you are not

I do agree that yellows attack on you may have been a little sharp,but thats pretty irrelavent really as you had already stated in chat that you were wanting to suicide into me!
So really you had already made up your mind that your game was over before yellow even attacked you Hulmey, as like you said "id prefer to cursh into Red"! However yellow didnt bow down to your threats so you took him out instead!

You said that my taking you out of Asia was a bad move & made me a bad player. After reading other players thoughts & looking at your own pole,do you still think this of me?
Be pissed off by all means as i would have been,but unlike you i would have taken it on the chin & done my best to fight back,not get angry & suicide....i just expected better from you i suppose...however no hard feelings eh

[Sven Hassel]

you had been better off waiting attacking blue, rather than threatening yellow, if i was yellow i would have done the same thing, your suicide was a dump move and cot you the game, patience is a virtue

[banockles]

You over-reacted. Simple as.Your blood was up when red land locked you(which was good play btw), and instead of bargaining with yellow, you threatened him.Yellow responded as most will when presented with ultimatums. My own attitude would have been to offer yellow nominated number of turns non atttack border alliance and broke blue.Either that turn or 2 or 3 ahead. You had all built big armies so i take it you wheren't expecting a quick resolution, so why suicide and not just be patient? Just my opinion but i think your lust to kill red interfered with your reasoning, happens to us all mate. Personally if i cant kill them that game i pretend its no grudges and annihilate them in another game ,ha. Hope that helps you.

[hulmey]

You over-reacted. Simple as.Your blood was up when red land locked you(which was good play btw), and instead of bargaining with yellow, you threatened him.Yellow responded as most will when presented with ultimatums. My own attitude would have been to offer yellow nominated number of turns non atttack border alliance and broke blue.Either that turn or 2 or 3 ahead. You had all built big armies so i take it you wheren't expecting a quick resolution, so why suicide and not just be patient? Just my opinion but i think your lust to kill red interfered with your reasoning, happens to us all mate. Personally if i cant kill them that game i pretend its no grudges and annihilate them in another game ,ha. Hope that helps you.

i got to sentence 2 and didnt read anymore!! If you cant understand what happened then i wont bother with you reading anymore of your post!!

[hulmey]

you had been better off waiting attacking blue, rather than threatening yellow, if i was yellow i would have done the same thing, your suicide was a dump move and cot you the game, patience is a virtue

again read my posts! yellow attacked me and i never threatened yellow until after he attacked me first

Give me credit i got 2400 points! i know how to play lol

[Deadly intent]

again read my posts! yellow attacked me and i never threatened yellow until after he attacked me first

Give me credit i got 2400 points! i know how to play lol

I dont think anybody is questioning whether you can play or not Hulmey,i know im not, as your rank says you can & i respect that
I think its more of a question of you letting your emotions cloud your judgement that is the key here my friend
Like i have already stated,you made it clear in chat that you were coming after me for land locking you,so in trueth,it mattered not really if yellow attacked you.This is because you had already decided that you were going to leave the game but you wanted to take me with you!
This alone is evidence of at least vindictive play surely?
Yes i can see why you were annoyed by events,i would be aswell,but i personally wouldnt have thrown the game mate.
You have to remember Hulmey,that when i kicked you out of Asia,you were game leader & had a large force almost knocking on my door in Oz...ofcause im going to do something about it,who wouldnt & looking at the imput so far,no one can blame me either
So please Hulmey,putting your emotions to one side for a moment,do you still truely believe that i was wrong in what i did in attacking you in Ural?
I admit,me kicking you out of Asia was the start of your demise,but this was down more to your emotions & attitude of it than by anything thing else.
Throwing a game because a player or players dont do as you say or think correct is not very sporting my friend,even if it is partly understandable.
However,they say that revenge is a dish best served cold & had you have kept your head,what better revenge could you have had than,negotiating,rebuilding & winning the game eh?

[hulmey]

again read my posts! yellow attacked me and i never threatened yellow until after he attacked me first

Give me credit i got 2400 points! i know how to play lol

I dont think anybody is questioning whether you can play or not Hulmey,i know im not, as your rank says you can & i respect that
I think its more of a question of you letting your emotions cloud your judgement that is the key here my friend
Like i have already stated,you made it clear in chat that you were coming after me for land locking you,so in trueth,it mattered not really if yellow attacked you.
I made it clear i would attack you after yellow had attacked me and thus both of you ending any little hope i had of winning the game.
This is because you had already decided that you were going to leave the game but you wanted to take me with you!
This alone is evidence of at least vindictive play surely?
Yes i can see why you were annoyed by events,i would be aswell,but i personally wouldnt have thrown the game mate.
You have to remember Hulmey,that when i kicked you out of Asia,you were game leader & had a large force almost knocking on my door in Oz
the force wasnt knocking on your door and were roaming there to get a card (primary reason) and also to attack blue when was needed (considering he held NA)...ofcause im going to do something about it,who wouldnt & looking at the imput so far,no one can blame me either
So please Hulmey,putting your emotions to one side for a moment,do you still truely believe that i was wrong in what i did in attacking you in Ural?
yes i do. i missed 2 turns of getting a card. First turn of missed card i asked yellow to move. he didnt. 2nd turn without a missed card i asked yellow to move, citing my intent for revenge on you (wasnt completely true). yellow attacked me and i attacked him back, handing the game to blue.
I admit,me kicking you out of Asia was the start of your demise,but this was down more to your emotions & attitude of it than by anything thing else.
Throwing a game because a player or players dont do as you say or think correct is not very sporting my friend,even if it is partly understandable.
However,they say that revenge is a dish best served cold & had you have kept your head,what better revenge could you have had than,negotiating,rebuilding & winning the game eh?

i had about as much chance of winning that game as the pope has been caught with a hooker in a brothel

[Mr Changsha]

1. Green should have been aware that his Asian stack was liable to get hit. If I am playing Australia, I can't think of any benefit of allowing green to stay there. Red's move was the correct one.
2. Having found himself in this position, green should have kept his cool, sucked it up, and stacked up in South America. Just waiting it out for a few rounds can make all the difference.
3. Trying to bully yellow into giving up his bonus so he could get a card was just dumb.
4. Green probably deserved a smack from yellow for the sheer impertinence and again, should have sucked it up.
5. All in all great for blue and certainly not red's fault.

Hulmey, blaming another player for you getting blocked just isn't on. It is always possible to get blocked in South America. Playing in Asia for cards is of questionable value anyway (as you are placing less man where you need them...in South America. If your playing South America you really have to bite the bullet early and either start working up into North America or take on Africa.

However, if you were planning on breaking blue through Asia then that would have been strategically beautiful. In that case you were a touch unlucky but red's play was still fine from his perspective.

[hulmey]

1. Green should have been aware that his Asian stack was liable to get hit. If I am playing Australia, I can't think of any benefit of allowing green to stay there. Red's move was the correct one.
2. Having found himself in this position, green should have kept his cool, sucked it up, and stacked up in South America. Just waiting it out for a few rounds can make all the difference. maybe red should have kept his cool and realsied that 20 stack was hardly going to dent his 60 stack
3. Trying to bully yellow into giving up his bonus so he could get a card was just dumb.
i asked him him once. no reply. asked him again.no reply. 3rd time bullied him
4. Green probably deserved a smack from yellow for the sheer impertinence and again, should have sucked it up.
5. All in all great for blue and certainly not red's fault.

Hulmey, blaming another player for you getting blocked just isn't on. It is always possible to get blocked in South America. Playing in Asia for cards is of questionable value anyway (as you are placing less man where you need them...in South America. If your playing South America you really have to bite the bullet early and either start working up into North America or take on Africa. emmm afica 70 armies. NA over 100. small problem

However, if you were planning on breaking blue through Asia then that would have been strategically beautiful. In that case you were a touch unlucky but red's play was still fine from his perspective.

that was my idea and of course it allowed me to get a card

yes i do. i missed 2 turns of getting a card. First turn of missed card i asked yellow to move. he didnt. 2nd turn without a missed card i asked yellow to move, citing my intent for revenge on you (wasnt completely true). yellow attacked me and i attacked him back, handing the game to blue.

[Jeff Hardy]

you messed up my suiciding

[Nikolai]

I mostly concur with Robinette.

Error #1: You got yourself stuck in SA in a flat rate build game.
Error #2: You built up an overlarge stack that could present a threatening appearance in a spot you only wanted for cards.
Good move #1: Red crushed Ural, landlocking you. (Frankly, I'm surprised blue didn't do it first, and that nobody did it sooner.)
Error #3: You decided to try to move out through yellow to recover a card position so you could keep fiddling 'round instead of actually playing the game. You should have hit blue.
Error #3: You made a troop movement that would have been appropriate only if you assumed that yellow would concede to your wishes. (Which, frankly, he shouldn't have.) Without prior permission, it looked very aggressive.
Error #4: Yellow attacked your stack instead of simply saying "No." Very minor error.
Error #5: You lost your temper and suicided into yellow. Even after getting hit, you might have had a chance for survival if you had camped. Instead you, as one of the lowest income players, hit the second lowest income player, throwing the game.

Yeah, I'm going to go with a vote for green playing badly.

[hulmey]

I mostly concur with Robinette.

Error #1: You got yourself stuck in SA in a flat rate build game.
i didnt get myself stuck. the position was forced apon me.
Error #2: You built up an overlarge stack that could present a threatening appearance in a spot you only wanted for cards.
should i have left singles lol....coz then land locking me would have been much easier
Good move #1: Red crushed Ural, landlocking you. (Frankly, I'm surprised blue didn't do it first, and that nobody did it sooner.)
i think you have lost the plot now!!
Error #3: You decided to try to move out through yellow to recover a card position so you could keep fiddling 'round instead of actually playing the game. You should have hit blue.
matter of opinon
Error #3: You made a troop movement that would have been appropriate only if you assumed that yellow would concede to your wishes. (Which, frankly, he shouldn't have.) Without prior permission, it looked very aggressive.
matter of opinon
Error #4: Yellow attacked your stack instead of simply saying "No." Very minor error.
minor error taking 40 of my armies?
Error #5: You lost your temper and suicided into yellow. Even after getting hit, you might have had a chance for survival if you had camped. Instead you, as one of the lowest income players, hit the second lowest income player, throwing the game.

Yeah, I'm going to go with a vote for green playing badly.