Should prison labor be illegal?

[tkr4lf]

To head this stupid argument off at the pass - do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

OH please, I was mostly poking fun at you.

The answer... it depends. A kid taking a candy bar is pretty petty. A guy taking a pair of gloves is petty, particularly if he took them because he was cold and the people from whom he took them had others, would not themselves be put at risk.


Taking someone's life savings is not at all petty.

Those things aren't really burglary though. Not in and of themselves, anyway. Any of those combined with gaining entry into somebody's house or a commercial property would constitute burglary. Otherwise those are just examples of theft.

[PLAYER57832]

To head this stupid argument off at the pass - do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

OH please, I was mostly poking fun at you.

The answer... it depends. A kid taking a candy bar is pretty petty. A guy taking a pair of gloves is petty, particularly if he took them because he was cold and the people from whom he took them had others, would not themselves be put at risk.


Taking someone's life savings is not at all petty.

Those things aren't really burglary though. Not in and of themselves, anyway. Any of those combined with gaining entry into somebody's house or a commercial property would constitute burglary. Otherwise those are just examples of theft.

OK, everybody is an attorney today!

I believe in correct use of terminology, but in this case, i was speaking casually and not wanting to get bogged down in a specific definition for a specific crime.

My point was just that three strikes can turn lesser crime into a major crime beyond reason. (not always, but sometimes.)

Can we move on now?... please.....

[tkr4lf]

According to an attorney? I think you mean "according to the law."

Well, yeah. I was just saying according to an attorney because that's who I heard it from.

So yeah, burglarly can be a petty crime and can be punished accordingly. But it does not shock me when someone gets 15 years.

The same can be said with most crimes. They can be petty, only being considered what they are because of some arbitrary legal definition, or they can be serious, actually being what they are called. That's one reason I don't agree with having everything labelled and falling into a nice, neat category that has a defined min-max sentence. Things should be charged on a case by case basis.

Like you said, they already are punished accordingly, most of the time. Still though, it can suck to have a burglary charge on your record if you did something stupid that wasn't violent at all and resulted in nothing being stolen. Because most people get the picture of a violent break-in with a bunch of t.v.'s and radios being stolen in their mind when they hear "burglary."

I guess my main point is that our legal system blows.

[tkr4lf]

My point was just that three strikes can turn lesser crime into a major crime beyond reason. (not always, but sometimes.)

Agreed on this.

[thegreekdog]

My point was just that three strikes can turn lesser crime into a major crime beyond reason. (not always, but sometimes.)

Agreed on this.

I also agree.

[stahrgazer]

I have worked with prisoners in doing work for the parks, also fighting fires in CA. I have worn unicorps uniforms, etc.


The problem with prison labor is not so much any inhumanity. Its pretty boring in prison and most prisoners very much like the chance to get out and "do something". In many cases they get to earn a little spending money AND often some skills that translate to real job potential post prison. I don't include the chain gang bit or some of the abusees we saw in Arizona. However, what I saw in CA and even parts of Mississippi was not abusive.
(some caveat there... MIssissippi ahs been known for abuse as well).

The biggest problem is that these prison corporations tend to out-compete free enterprise industries. There used to be much stricter statuatory limits. Prisoners were often used for "public service" type jobs where there just were not the funds for private employees. (thus road work, parks work) When prisoners are used to make uniforms and such, though, they can be seen to be taking away private employment, even if the uniforms are primarily for government employees and thus the savings are passed on to taxpayers.

I would like to see prison employment expanded, for reasons that have to do with prisoners having a better life in prison and after prison (in positive ways.. plant a garden instead of watching TV). One area where I think prisoners could really help is in animal training. There are several programs already. Prisoners can begin the training for seeing eye and "helper" dogs.

I could also see prisoners helping care for the pets of active duty personnel who are deployed. It is plain terrible that so many soldiers feel they have no other option but to send their beloved pets to the humane society or pound. These types of programs help the dog AND the prisoner and fill gaps that outside society cannot do.

Another side is when dealing with youth. In that case, I think putting the kids to work is pretty critical. I would like to see a return to prison farms for youth camps, but controlled with modern sensibilities. That is, I have no problem with telling a teen… work or you don’t eat --- or better yet, pick and cook the food or we all don’t eat, chop that wood or no one is warm tonight, but beating and making them pull weeds in 100 degree heat with no water are NOT OK. It also has to be paired with real education and honest caring. Those are hard mixes to keep, but when done properly you can truly “turn a kid around”.

Anyway, there are 2 standards for this.
1. The work must be reasonable. Hard is great, but not beyond a person’s ability. Any real physical danger should be minimized, just as it is in the open world, even a bit more care since the people don’t have choices.

2.Competition with the private sector should be minimized. I am perfectly OK with any “in house” services… letting prisoners grow their own food, make their own clothing and furniture, even if it is technically competing with outside sources. Using that labor to supply basic needs for the armed services is a bit more dicey, but overall, we need the military and we all pay for the military. As long as people are not being incarcerated specifically so they can work for these corporations, the cost savings to taxpayers is worth the loss felt by private contractors.

Agree with all this. Much preferable to buying them cable tv.

[GeneralRisk]

In Illinois we banned private for-profit prisons. (that's a start)

Then I would propose major changes to the length of time people can go to prison. (For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

All prison labor must be voluntary and cannot compete with private industry. (You can't use minimum-wage earning prisoners to bust unions.)

End long prison sentences for non-violent offenders.

End prison sentences for drug users.

Legalize pot.

I was in the Illinois penal system in the late 1980's. I was in Joliet penitentiary. I was not forced to work. It can become boring. I took a job in mess hall. Then I went to Pontiac penitentiary [farm] and worked in the mess hall, and sold weed. I got busted selling weed so I went to main Pontiac penitentiary and spent 6 months in segregation on a block with circuit riders. [inmates who were transported every couple of months to a different penitentiary, of whom either killed guards or attempted it] I was let out of seg and sent to West Block. I wanted to work but we were locked down so often it was impossible to work or go to school. Inmates usually slept most of the day and were up all night burning mattresses, blasting Black music out of old large sterio systems with very large,loud and poor sounding speakers, throwing food out of the cells, urine at guards, etc. 3500 inmates and I was 1 of 9 white people. Lucky for me that I had connections with the Latin Kings and knew some chiefs from the streets. When I worked I made $17.00 a month. Finally I got a transfer to a nice maximum security prison called Graham penitentiary. I went to college at Lincoln Land College, where I learned to write cobol computer language and learned a few other things. I made $17.00 a month for going to school. At this place you had to work or go to school or they would ship you out to one of the very old and dangerous prisons. In Illinois prisons [unlike Cook County Jail] the guards are scared of inmates. ..................................................................In the 1990's I got busted on Bourbon Street in New Orleans after turning a under cover policeman on to a line. That jail down there was even worst than cook county jail. I have never in all of my travels, ever had guards, blacks and southern whites all fighting and hating me. Definitely not a place for Yankees. when they finally after 3 days let my girlfriend bail me out, I skipped bail and left the state, {bail bondsman told me that I would be stupid not to flee as more than likely I would of been convicted and sent to a farm out in the swamps, probably never to return] f*ck New Orleans, I can still smell the stench. Sorry for the rant

[john9blue]

In Illinois we banned private for-profit prisons.

Everything is banned in Illinois.

not true. i can still buy foam-tipped darts, nerf guns, and super soakers after a 90-day waiting period, provided i submit a background check and registration fee.