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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:49 pm

Player wrote:It is a summary of his ideas, thus the concept, even if not the wording are generally attributed to Darwin. In fact, Darwin did not even come up with the ideas, he is merely the first to have fully published them in a format accessible to most people.


True enough.

And while he indeed did get the majority of his theory from his predecessors (his grandfather, Lamarck, Lyell, etc), he was the first (many people forget poor Alfred Wallace) to propose that natural selection was the mechanic through which it worked (which he got from reading Malthus' paper about human population).

-TG
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:52 pm

oVo wrote:Whoa... nice post BBS, muchas gracias for your input.

"Competition by prices and voluntary exchange tend to weed out the lesser efficient buyers and sellers---just as the organisms who obtain food less efficiently can be weeded out by more efficient organisms."

Market Value... coupled with production and demand can be a real dream reaming morals bender. Venders seek a competitive edge, not a level playing field. The greed factor emerges as the ugly side of human nature prevails over better judgement, anything to get ahead. Like athletes using performance enhancing drugs, ball players corking bats and Corporate America buying the influence of government on all levels.

Short term gains regardless of long term effects... World finance, chemical, energy & manufacturing industries cashing in while ignoring the toxic effects of their processes. Allowing the "Artificial Markets" to determine what's best for everyone in a dog eat dog, who pays the most, survival of the fittest sort of way.

Is this a form of evolution?



Pretty much, but here's how'd I go about doing that:

I'd focus more on the interplay between markets and politics, and note that the behavior of humans within markets is largely determined by the institutions which affect markets. For example, if lobbying becomes more profitable as the government becomes more centralized, then it becomes more rewarding to lobby, thus many businesses adapt to this new environment by investing more into lobbying and into political contributions (adaptation). In turn, they can get compensated for creating more pollution. Some regulations curb it while the many subsidies, tax credits, and favorable legislative bits offset the regulatory cost. The "World finance, chemical, energy & manufacturing industries" all fit into this model.

This political system rewards corruption (and pollution) while punishing to some degree businesses which do not lobby or fund politicians (selection). In turn, you'd get more businesses modeling themselves toward corruption instead of more productive and useful activities--thanks to government institutions which reward detrimental behavior.


Another thing about your analysis is that you need to clarify terms. Market value itself is neither bad nor good. It's just some aggregate value which the sum of individuals have placed on some good in a particular market, and it's expressed as a price which people can accept or reject---or they can request a different quantity at the same price.

It's not so much about short-term v. long-term profits. It's really about whether or not businesses--and individuals like you and me--incorporate costs into our decision-making. If I throw some trash on the street, it hardly affects me because I pay practically zero for the garbage people to clean it--if they even do. If I had to pay for it, then my cost becomes internalized, thus I have to decide between throwing it away and bearing that additional cost, or choosing some other goal instead.

The same applies to businesses. If they can dump crap into the river, and the government or no one does anything about it, then you'll get more crap in the river. Profits--for that business--remain at (let's say) $1 million per year while profits for farmers using the river would decrease due to the consequences of contamination. However, if the government or others through contract/whatever make the business compensate the victims by having them pay x-amount per unit it dumps into the river, then the company has to internalize this extra cost into its decision-making. Let's say that if it dumps into the river, its profits would decrease to $800,000 (since it would pay $200,000 to all affected, or to the government which takes its cut and might compensate others).

If 'recycling' the crap or reusing it would net $100,000, then it makes sense to reuse the by-products instead of dumping it into the river (net profit = $900,000).

So, it's not about short-term v. long-term profits, but about internalizing the costs of individuals' decisions, and how that internalization can induce innovation (e.g. alternative uses of 'garbage').
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby Dukasaur on Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:11 am

hahaha3hahaha wrote:So, this forum has been subject to quite a bit of gasbaggin' about morality lately. My open to discussion question is, can you claim to uphold darwinism, whilst donating to charity, without being a hypocrite?
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent, would you have to abstain from all charitable contributions?

Don't know if this has already been said, but the obvious answer is no.

Homo sapiens has evolved as a social animal, so obviously our social behaviour is a pro-survival trait.

Compare to Neanderthal man. Archeological evidence shows that neanderthals were in most ways superior to our own ancestors, but they were also less social. Today, we are here and Neanderthal man is not. Clearly, social behaviour and the ability to form more complex mutual-aid arrangements turned out to be more important than other factors. Charity is an important component of mutual-aid arrangements. Trade is important too, of course, but the desire to nurture along even those who have nothing to trade has always been one of the signs of civilization.
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby universalchiro on Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:13 am

Dukasaur wrote:
hahaha3hahaha wrote:So, this forum has been subject to quite a bit of gasbaggin' about morality lately. My open to discussion question is, can you claim to uphold darwinism, whilst donating to charity, without being a hypocrite?
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent, would you have to abstain from all charitable contributions?



Homo sapiens has evolved as a social animal, so obviously our social behaviour is a pro-survival trait.
This is an unproven hypothesis and therefore an unproven premise built on that hypothesis is well, obviously flawed.

Dukasaur wrote:Compare to Neanderthal man. Archeological evidence shows that neanderthals were in most ways superior to our own ancestors, but they were also less social.
You really should check your facts. Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten - a distinguished German anthropologist who discovered "Neanderthal man", was stripped of all his 30 years of accolades and discredited as merely a bunch of lies to purport his Darwinian Evolutionary views. The discoverer of Neanderthal man falsified his evidence and you are still buying into his proven lies... Time to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2005 ... ciencenews
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby PLAYER57832 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:03 am

universalchiro wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
hahaha3hahaha wrote:So, this forum has been subject to quite a bit of gasbaggin' about morality lately. My open to discussion question is, can you claim to uphold darwinism, whilst donating to charity, without being a hypocrite?
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent, would you have to abstain from all charitable contributions?



Homo sapiens has evolved as a social animal, so obviously our social behaviour is a pro-survival trait.
This is an unproven hypothesis and therefore an unproven premise built on that hypothesis is well, obviously flawed.

No. It is a theory, with evidence to back it. Fact-- we ARE social, and we are classified as "animals" (not fungus, plants, etc).
Theory - does us being social add to our survival? I doubt you would find any serious scientist to disagree, even within the Christian community. I mean really, what do you think Christ meant about helping each other and supporting each other, etc, etc?

Anyway, thinking about ideas, finding proof and creating hypothesis to fit the evidence is how ideas, science, moving forward work. Only people intent on remaining ignorant reject that process (and please note the so-called "Scientific Creationists" do not reject that process, but they are not that picky about its application).

Phatscotty wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Compare to Neanderthal man. Archeological evidence shows that neanderthals were in most ways superior to our own ancestors, but they were also less social.
You really should check your facts. Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten - a distinguished German anthropologist who discovered "Neanderthal man", was stripped of all his 30 years of accolades and discredited as merely a bunch of lies to purport his Darwinian Evolutionary views. The discoverer of Neanderthal man falsified his evidence and you are still buying into his proven lies... Time to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2005 ... ciencenews


Uh.. are you seriously trying to claim that Neaderthals were invented by this one guy and that they never existed?
Try again. ONE scientist, in fact MANY have been discredited. That doesn't mean all of science is wrong. Many, MANY anthropologists and paleontologists have found evidence, studied the data. In fact, is actually so accessible that you can probably locate some of it on your own if you are willing to travel a tad bit.

There are many ideas about Neaderthal. Some have argued that they were our immediate ancestors, but it now looks more likely that they simply co-existed with what became modern humans, were more like "cousins" to us than our "grandparents". That IS up for debate. How, exactly they lived, how much social life they had, etc are up for debate. Early on, many scientists just assumed that a creature that looked more like an ape than us would not have religion, etc, etc, etc Now, that is not so certain, though it is very probable that they thought very differently from us. They did not seem to have the "artistic" abilities, something we think of as "creativity" as much as modern humans. Still... that is up for debate and likely will be until we get a time machine (hopefully.. never!).

At any rate, NO serious scientist questions that Neaderthals existed. Several other types of hominids (human like creatures) also existed. The only real question is how closely related they are to us, where they fit on the family tree.

ALSO, while the biology of when human beings emerged, etc is more or less "set" (within a certain time frame), when we began to have things like religion, when we became fully "human" in the way we think of today, in a religious sense -- that is an entirely different question and one that neither paleontology nor biology are likely to yield firm or easy answers to.
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby TA1LGUNN3R on Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:37 pm

universalchiro wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
hahaha3hahaha wrote:So, this forum has been subject to quite a bit of gasbaggin' about morality lately. My open to discussion question is, can you claim to uphold darwinism, whilst donating to charity, without being a hypocrite?
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent, would you have to abstain from all charitable contributions?



Homo sapiens has evolved as a social animal, so obviously our social behaviour is a pro-survival trait.
This is an unproven hypothesis and therefore an unproven premise built on that hypothesis is well, obviously flawed.

Dukasaur wrote:Compare to Neanderthal man. Archeological evidence shows that neanderthals were in most ways superior to our own ancestors, but they were also less social.
You really should check your facts. Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten - a distinguished German anthropologist who discovered "Neanderthal man", was stripped of all his 30 years of accolades and discredited as merely a bunch of lies to purport his Darwinian Evolutionary views. The discoverer of Neanderthal man falsified his evidence and you are still buying into his proven lies... Time to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2005 ... ciencenews


I'm going to regret engaging you, I'm sure, but wtf does the Piltdown Man have to do with Neanderthals? The Piltdown Man was a hoax by Charles Dawson (or possibly Woodward), and he didn't classify it as Neanderthal. He classified it as E. dawsonii, or the "missing link" between apes and humans. Neanderthals have never been considered such.

Your blatant misunderstanding of these things (or more likely just plain trolling) is amusing.

-TG
Last edited by TA1LGUNN3R on Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby Lootifer on Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:30 pm

I dont think hes trolling.
I go to the gym to justify my mockery of fat people.
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Re: Darwinism and charity

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:17 pm

universalchiro wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:
hahaha3hahaha wrote:So, this forum has been subject to quite a bit of gasbaggin' about morality lately. My open to discussion question is, can you claim to uphold darwinism, whilst donating to charity, without being a hypocrite?
In order to be intellectually honest and consistent, would you have to abstain from all charitable contributions?



Homo sapiens has evolved as a social animal, so obviously our social behaviour is a pro-survival trait.
This is an unproven hypothesis and therefore an unproven premise built on that hypothesis is well, obviously flawed.

Dukasaur wrote:Compare to Neanderthal man. Archeological evidence shows that neanderthals were in most ways superior to our own ancestors, but they were also less social.
You really should check your facts. Professor Reiner Protsch von Zieten - a distinguished German anthropologist who discovered "Neanderthal man", was stripped of all his 30 years of accolades and discredited as merely a bunch of lies to purport his Darwinian Evolutionary views. The discoverer of Neanderthal man falsified his evidence and you are still buying into his proven lies... Time to wake up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2005 ... ciencenews

Our understanding of Neanderthal man owes nothing to the very undistinguised (and in fact rather obscure) Dr. von Zieten. Saying that the science of anthropology is undermined by the existence of a some con artist in the mix is like saying that everything we know about bread is wrong because some obscure baker down the street is a crook.
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