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Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:59 pm

thegreekdog wrote:http://www.footballperspective.com/peyton-mannings-legacy/


See, my problem with this sort of thing is that there is a reason the conversation exists. There is a reason why Brady's legacy isn't questioned. There is a reason why Montana's legacy isn't questioned.

I don't know why it's particular to Manning but the conversation exists (could be that he has a losing record in the playoffs and has the most all-time losses), for one reason or another.

Here's my (very biased) list of QBs that I would pick, in order, if I had to win a single game:
1. Elway
2. Brady
3. Montana
4. Manning
5. Staubach








































6. Tebow
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby AndyDufresne on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:09 pm

What about Terry Bradshaw? He's won quite a few super bowls, hasn't he? I don't know his stats off hand though.


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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby Army of GOD on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:15 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:What about Terry Bradshaw? He's won quite a few super bowls, hasn't he? I don't know his stats off hand though.


--Andy


He was before my time so I can't really talk about his actual play but from what I've heard he was more of a game manager-esque QB. I'd still have him top 10.
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby thegreekdog on Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:44 pm

The article was very good in laying out the unfairness, but it also made the case for Manning in a way that offers no rebuke. For example, the author points out games were Montana sucked or when Brady "lost" to a defense giving up 22 points a game (i.e. worse than Seattle's defense).
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby oVo on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:12 pm

The reason the Manning discussion exists is simply that he is still playing. He is a first round Hall of Fame Quarterback, period.

If you saw Jim Brown, Gayle Sayers, Archie Griffin or Walter Peyton play you might argue that there will never be another running back like them again. Every time they touched the ball you knew there was a chance it might go all the way.

Then of course there is Adrian Petterson.

Every new crop of quarterbacks brings hope that they will be special, but it's a team sport that requires skill at every position to seal a championship.
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby Sackett58 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:19 pm

Joe Montana (1979-1994)
Peyton Manning (1998-present)

Well let's see what has changed since Montana's retirement in the way of rule changes.
1989
• A defender (approaching from any direction) who has an unrestricted path to the quarterback is prohibited from flagrantly hitting him in the area of the knee(s).
1995
• When tackling a passer during or just after throwing a pass, a defensive player is prohibited from unnecessarily and violently throwing him down and landing on top of him with all or most of the defender's weight.
2007
• A block below the waist against an eligible receiver while the quarterback is in the pocket is a 15-yard penalty instead of a 5-yard penalty (an illegal cut block).
2009
• It is an illegal hit on a defenseless receiver if the initial force of the contact by the defender's helmet, forearm, or shoulder is to the head or neck area of the receiver. Penalty: 15 yards.

Now with these rules in place what does that mean. Well this article is interesting.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8 ... -evolution
Rules
The no-contact rule on receivers beyond five yards from the line of scrimmage has been around for years. What's changed has been the enforcement of contact against receivers running across the middle of the field, whether they have the ball or not.
In years past, treading between the numbers was a danger zone for receivers, who expected to be re-routed if they tried to run a crossing pattern or to take a potentially concussive hit once they caught the ball. With officials being more cognizant of penalizing helmet-to-helmet hits, players have backed off, making the middle of the field a far safer place to play.
For proof, look at the New England Patriots. Wes Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez work the middle of the field like an Etch A Sketch. They exploit matchups, talent and rules arguably better than any team in the league -- especially with a pinpoint passer in Tom Brady.
Former Philadelphia Eagles and Denver Broncos safety Brian Dawkins recently said that one of the reasons why he retired is that players are now in a gray area, meaning there are times a player has to think or pause instead of react. He said he found himself pulling up on bang-bang plays instead of leveling offensive players like he did much of his career.
That reluctance to intimidate has made offenses far more brazen and quarterbacks far more comfortable throwing the ball. Passing the ball to the middle of the field is much easier than trying to stick a 15-yard out pattern on the sideline. With athletes like Graham and Gronkowski and smarter quarterbacks who can decipher defensive weakness, throwing the ball is simply easier.

But I found this article best when it came to comparing past and present.
http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/co ... -game/6778

The Golden Age (2004-present)
As if quarterbacks hadn't been coddled enough by coaches and rulemakers over the past two decades, one profound game, and one very angry team executive, made their lives even easier in 2004.
• One, New England defenders pushed the bounds of pass interference rules in the 2003 AFC championship game, badly roughing up Indianapolis receivers and shutting down the Colts high-powered offense in a 24-14 Patriots victory.
• Two, Indy's powerful president, Bill Polian, complained to the league rather loudly in the wake of his team's loss.
As a result, the NFL determined that its officials would "re-emphasize" pass interference rules in 2004 and beyond. Though not officially a rule change, the impact on the passing game was profound.

The very next season, Indy quarterback Peyton Manning (pictured here) went out and rewrote the record books, with 49 TD passes and a 121.1 passer rating that was nearly 10 points better than any that had come before it. The league-wide passer rating, meanwhile, jumped from 78.3 in 2003 to a record 82.8 in 2004.

The records have remained under assault since then: Tom Brady broke Manning's TD-toss record with 50 in 2007, while posting the second-highest passer rating in history (117.2). With less fanfare, Drew Brees set a record with 440 completions in 2007. And, as noted above, NFL quarterbacks are poised to rewrite the record books in countless categories here in 2008, while newcomers have bucked tradition by easily performing at high level.

But today's high-flying newcomers and record-setting veterans aren't better quarterbacks than players of the past. They just have advantages their predecessors never enjoyed back before the Golden Age of the passing game.
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby thegreekdog on Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:50 pm

The benefit of pro football focus and advanced metrics is that they account for eras and rule changes. If you're interested, I'll find you the link explaining why Peyton Manning would still have been better adjusting for eras.
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Re: Superbowl XLVIII (2014)

Postby Sackett58 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:15 pm

thegreekdog wrote:The benefit of pro football focus and advanced metrics is that they account for eras and rule changes. If you're interested, I'll find you the link explaining why Peyton Manning would still have been better adjusting for eras.



Please do.
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