GM crops are awesome. Faith-based environmentalists disagree

[BigBallinStalin]

Lecture to Oxford Farming Conference, 3 January 2013

I want to start with some apologies. For the record, here and upfront, I apologise for having spent several years ripping up GM crops. I am also sorry that I helped to start the anti-GM movement back in the mid 1990s, and that I thereby assisted in demonising an important technological option which can be used to benefit the environment.

As an environmentalist, and someone who believes that everyone in this world has a right to a healthy and nutritious diet of their choosing, I could not have chosen a more counter-productive path. I now regret it completely.

So I guess you’ll be wondering – what happened between 1995 and now that made me not only change my mind but come here and admit it? Well, the answer is fairly simple: I discovered science, and in the process I hope I became a better environmentalist.

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/01/lectur ... uary-2013/


To be against GM crops is similar to being like Viceroy and against evolution. Good luck with that.

[Funkyterrance]

To be fair, Viceroy isn't against evolution, he simply doesn't believe in it. If someone doesn't believe in GM crops do you feel compelled to pick a fight with them?

[BigBallinStalin]

To be fair, Viceroy isn't against evolution, he simply doesn't believe in it. If someone doesn't believe in GM crops do you feel compelled to pick a fight with them?

Calling evolution a lie constitutes as "against evolution."

[Funkyterrance]

To be fair, Viceroy isn't against evolution, he simply doesn't believe in it. If someone doesn't believe in GM crops do you feel compelled to pick a fight with them?

Calling evolution a lie constitutes as "against evolution."

I'm not entirely on board with that statement but I'll consider it a difference in interpretation.

I honestly think that Viceroy's opinion is just one side of the same coin but he's not nearly as nasty defending his. There is also motivation to be considered but that's another subject entirely which no one seems to be much interested in.

[Neoteny]

GMOs are definitely overly maligned.

[BigBallinStalin]

To be fair, Viceroy isn't against evolution, he simply doesn't believe in it. If someone doesn't believe in GM crops do you feel compelled to pick a fight with them?

Calling evolution a lie constitutes as "against evolution."

I'm not entirely on board with that statement but I'll consider it a difference in interpretation.

I honestly think that Viceroy's opinion is just one side of the same coin but he's not nearly as nasty defending his. There is also motivation to be considered but that's another subject entirely which no one seems to be much interested in.

Faith-based beliefs, bereft of scientific understanding, can be internally difficult to challenge, e.g. environmentalists who oppose GM crops.

[Lootifer]

Lecture to Oxford Farming Conference, 3 January 2013

I want to start with some apologies. For the record, here and upfront, I apologise for having spent several years ripping up GM crops. I am also sorry that I helped to start the anti-GM movement back in the mid 1990s, and that I thereby assisted in demonising an important technological option which can be used to benefit the environment.

As an environmentalist, and someone who believes that everyone in this world has a right to a healthy and nutritious diet of their choosing, I could not have chosen a more counter-productive path. I now regret it completely.

So I guess you’ll be wondering – what happened between 1995 and now that made me not only change my mind but come here and admit it? Well, the answer is fairly simple: I discovered science, and in the process I hope I became a better environmentalist.

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/01/lectur ... uary-2013/


To be against GM crops is similar to being like Viceroy and against evolution. Good luck with that.

Yes and no; the rightness or wrongness of being anti-GM crops comes down to the details as to why you're against them.

For example the following as very real and rational reasons for opposing them:
- Fear that GM, when used in conjuntion with 3rd world corruption, will be used to essentially sell crops with planned obsolescence sustainably
- Fear that the as the technology is fairly young it should be treated with caution; asbestos is a good insulator right?

[thegreekdog]

BBS, you know that the only person you're going to trap here is Player. Is that someone you really want to trap?

[Neoteny]

I chuckled.

[kentington]

I read that whole thing. I was expecting it to say more and get to the point sooner or blow me away. I feel like he could have added a lot more information and still had a shorter novel.

I would have liked to see him mention something regarding organic pesticides. From what I understand, Organic foods can use certain natural pesticides. A lot of people don't know this. Just because the pesticide is natural does not make it healthy.

[Funkyterrance]

Faith-based beliefs, bereft of scientific understanding, can be internally difficult to challenge, e.g. environmentalists who oppose GM crops.

Now please don't label me by this but some faith based beliefs are found to actually be more rich in wisdom/beneficial than scientific ones. There are certainly some dangers to GM crops that are not readily apparent but could end up proving them ultimately detrimental to the environment. For the short term GM crops appear to be beneficial but they are a relatively new development. There is no blatantly obvious "right" side. Just saying.

[BigBallinStalin]

BBS, you know that the only person you're going to trap here is Player. Is that someone you really want to trap?

There were others from that thread I started about France's ban on a particular GM product, so maybe they'll show up to the party too.

[BigBallinStalin]

Lecture to Oxford Farming Conference, 3 January 2013

I want to start with some apologies. For the record, here and upfront, I apologise for having spent several years ripping up GM crops. I am also sorry that I helped to start the anti-GM movement back in the mid 1990s, and that I thereby assisted in demonising an important technological option which can be used to benefit the environment.

As an environmentalist, and someone who believes that everyone in this world has a right to a healthy and nutritious diet of their choosing, I could not have chosen a more counter-productive path. I now regret it completely.

So I guess you’ll be wondering – what happened between 1995 and now that made me not only change my mind but come here and admit it? Well, the answer is fairly simple: I discovered science, and in the process I hope I became a better environmentalist.

http://www.marklynas.org/2013/01/lectur ... uary-2013/


To be against GM crops is similar to being like Viceroy and against evolution. Good luck with that.

Yes and no; the rightness or wrongness of being anti-GM crops comes down to the details as to why you're against them.

For example the following as very real and rational reasons for opposing them:
- Fear that GM, when used in conjuntion with 3rd world corruption, will be used to essentially sell crops with planned obsolescence sustainably
- Fear that the as the technology is fairly young it should be treated with caution; asbestos is a good insulator right?

(1) Anything + "3rd world corruption" can be used as an excuse to fear anything. The primary cause of #1 is protectionism and the strict enforcement of intellectual property rights. In order to avoid such diabolic schemes, then we must insist on free markets--especially voluntary exchange--and IP reform. If free markets and voluntary exchange aren't supported, then plenty of other nefarious schemes can be concocted from the "anything + 3rd world corruption" formula.

Besides, has this ever happened? #1 seems to be a product of pure imagination. And for the sake of brevity, I see several reasons why 3rd world countries would have many problems in enforcing such trade restrictions so that only a particular GM crop could be used. (Many can't even control drug crops, so this scenario seems incredible).


(2) That's a valid concern, but GM food has been and is more frequently tested than conventional crops, so if one sincerely believes in the second argument, then one should be more fearful of conventional food (and organic food) since they've been tested less. Of course, one should feel free to caution others about a 15+ year old technology, but this doesn't justify prohibition (a stance which the guy in the OP would characterize as faith-based).

(The ill effects of asbestos have been known for 2000+ years and in the UK since the 1930s. Where's the evidence against GM food? Besides, I smell crony capitalism as the primary cause here.
IIRC some of those Witch Hunts in 'the good ol days' were fueled by this fungus which had hallucinogenic properties and grew on the crops Because of this, should conventional crops been banned? Clearly, like asbestos, the crops seemed fine... but <cue ominous music> people were accustomed to the natural safety of such an ancient technology and paid for their mistakes. Well, the witches did, that's for sure).

[AAFitz]

Well, some GM food, like soy, is Genetically modified to resist dying from Round up. The roundup then kills all the other plants, and the soy grows in the soil that is rounded up. The roundup has to be absorbed by the plant, and be in the beans.

I realize that the GM in this case, doesn't do the damage, but I certainly dont eat any GM soy if I can help it.

I do eat vinegar though, which kills plants even faster than round up.

[BigBallinStalin]

Faith-based beliefs, bereft of scientific understanding, can be internally difficult to challenge, e.g. environmentalists who oppose GM crops.

Now please don't label me by this but some faith based beliefs are found to actually be more rich in wisdom/beneficial than scientific ones. There are certainly some dangers to GM crops that are not readily apparent but could end up proving them ultimately detrimental to the environment. For the short term GM crops appear to be beneficial but they are a relatively new development. There is no blatantly obvious "right" side. Just saying.

The same could be said of cars and airplanes when they were first introduced to the human ecosystems. Would it make sense to prohibit cars and airplanes?


The Bible has much advice which leads people to conflicting conclusions, but anyway if you wanted to inform yourself about the benefits and costs of a particular product, would you consult the Holy Book (and its standards of inquiry) or Consumer Reports (and its standards of inquiry)?

[BigBallinStalin]

Well, some GM food, like soy, is Genetically modified to resist dying from Round up. The roundup then kills all the other plants, and the soy grows in the soil that is rounded up. The roundup has to be absorbed by the plant, and be in the beans.

I realize that the GM in this case, doesn't do the damage, but I certainly dont eat any GM soy if I can help it.

I do eat vinegar though, which kills plants even faster than round up.

Does the roundup remain in the plant?

If so, and if such harm could be demonstrated (which I imagine could be easily tested), then where are the court cases which support your fear?

And if there have been court cases, is the entire GM food industry to blame or just that one company?

To be clear, I'm not saying that you MUST eat GM food. I'm just questioning your fears.

[AAFitz]

To be fair, Viceroy isn't against evolution, he simply doesn't believe in it. If someone doesn't believe in GM crops do you feel compelled to pick a fight with them?

Calling evolution a lie constitutes as "against evolution."

I'm not entirely on board with that statement but I'll consider it a difference in interpretation.

I honestly think that Viceroy's opinion is just one side of the same coin but he's not nearly as nasty defending his. There is also motivation to be considered but that's another subject entirely which no one seems to be much interested in.

He is not merely defending his side. He is outright attacking the other side, and is plenty nasty in the process.

I assume many are interested in motivation, and consider motivation of posters and ideas in every case as part of their response. However, one can only ever suggests ones true motivations, and there is almost always plausible deniability, so arguing about it, is rather pointless.....and one thing about the CC forum is....we dont like to argue about pointless things.

[AAFitz]

Well, some GM food, like soy, is Genetically modified to resist dying from Round up. The roundup then kills all the other plants, and the soy grows in the soil that is rounded up. The roundup has to be absorbed by the plant, and be in the beans.

I realize that the GM in this case, doesn't do the damage, but I certainly dont eat any GM soy if I can help it.

I do eat vinegar though, which kills plants even faster than round up.

Does the roundup remain in the plant?

If so, and if such harm could be demonstrated (which I imagine could be easily tested), then where are the court cases which support your fear?

And if there have been court cases, is the entire GM food industry to blame or just that one company?

To be clear, I'm not saying that you MUST eat GM food. I'm just questioning your fears.

Im questioning them too, and I hardly claim to suggest I know the exact process, only that the risk of it, is enough for me to avoid it as much as possible, though an equal amount of salt will kill you much faster.

I do not choose my food based on court cases, and I would label my action as cautious, not fearful.

Ill let the court cases, decide who's to blame.

The entire science of nutrition is hardly fully determined and clearly there is not one theory that could be determined to be correct, but I certainly have no problem finding substitutes for round up in my diet as much as possible.

I also limit animal protein, dairy almost to nil, and sugar as much as I can.

Last June that list included alcohol, aspertame, and caffeine, and all at once.

Those were not fun days.

Now, I eat organic as much as possible, limit GM food as much as reasonably possible, and the other things mentioned all based on statistics, which I know may be very misleading.

Im convinced about the Dairy decision though, GM or otherwise. Countries with dairy get prostate cancer, countries without dont. Other factors apply, but for me its enough to miss out on dairy, and drink and eat the bland substitutes...which sometimes...mean eating GM soy, ironically enough.

[BigBallinStalin]

I hear that if you live in a country which is >90% Asian, then your chances for colon cancer decrease significantly.


(AAFitz, you seem to be a reasonable enough human on the topic of GM food. When my brethren come to Planet Earth, you will be allowed to flourish--2 child max, though.)

[Lootifer]

Im all for GM food so cant really honestly argue with you on this one. The GM thing does sound a little similar to the whole MSG thing which is beyond laughable.

[AAFitz]

I hear that if you live in a country which is >90% Asian, then your chances for colon cancer decrease significantly.


(AAFitz, you seem to be a reasonable enough human on the topic of GM food. When my brethren come to Planet Earth, you will be allowed to flourish--2 child max, though.)

Already tried that, and it didnt really work out. Ill try to keep to the four pet chickens I have now though, if that helps.

If I seem reasonable on the topic of food, its probably because I really have researched it so much, as part of my mid life crisis and all, and have found so many opposing theories, I think it would just be ridiculous to profess that anyone knows definitively everything on that subject.

And yes, most asian countries don't do dairy, because 90% of the population is lactose intolerant, and they have almost zero cases of prostate cancer. The numbers on lactose intolerance is amazingly high, and whites seem to be one of the few groups that have a lower percentage, and even that could be 10-20% Hell, if half the world is intolerant to an entire product, its probably not a bad idea for the rest to avoid it as well. Again, there are other factors as well, such as less animal protein, but dairy jumps out pretty quickly in the statistics. I also find dairy affects my sinuses, which is the main reason I avoid them religiously now.

[BigBallinStalin]

Im all for GM food so cant really honestly argue with you on this one. The GM thing does sound a little similar to the whole MSG thing which is beyond laughable.

First, they genetically modified our crops.

Then, they will genetically modify our children.

THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

[BigBallinStalin]

I hear that if you live in a country which is >90% Asian, then your chances for colon cancer decrease significantly.


(AAFitz, you seem to be a reasonable enough human on the topic of GM food. When my brethren come to Planet Earth, you will be allowed to flourish--2 child max, though.)

Already tried that, and it didnt really work out. Ill try to keep to the four pet chickens I have now though, if that helps.

If I seem reasonable on the topic of food, its probably because I really have researched it so much, as part of my mid life crisis and all, and have found so many opposing theories, I think it would just be ridiculous to profess that anyone knows definitively everything on that subject.

And yes, most asian countries don't do dairy, because 90% of the population is lactose intolerant, and they have almost zero cases of prostate cancer. The numbers on lactose intolerance is amazingly high, and whites seem to be one of the few groups that have a lower percentage, and even that could be 10-20% Hell, if half the world is intolerant to an entire product, its probably not a bad idea for the rest to avoid it as well. Again, there are other factors as well, such as less animal protein, but dairy jumps out pretty quickly in the statistics. I also find dairy affects my sinuses, which is the main reason I avoid them religiously now.

Hmm, are you sure you're not related to this guy?

[AAFitz]

I hear that if you live in a country which is >90% Asian, then your chances for colon cancer decrease significantly.


(AAFitz, you seem to be a reasonable enough human on the topic of GM food. When my brethren come to Planet Earth, you will be allowed to flourish--2 child max, though.)

Already tried that, and it didnt really work out. Ill try to keep to the four pet chickens I have now though, if that helps.

If I seem reasonable on the topic of food, its probably because I really have researched it so much, as part of my mid life crisis and all, and have found so many opposing theories, I think it would just be ridiculous to profess that anyone knows definitively everything on that subject.

And yes, most asian countries don't do dairy, because 90% of the population is lactose intolerant, and they have almost zero cases of prostate cancer. The numbers on lactose intolerance is amazingly high, and whites seem to be one of the few groups that have a lower percentage, and even that could be 10-20% Hell, if half the world is intolerant to an entire product, its probably not a bad idea for the rest to avoid it as well. Again, there are other factors as well, such as less animal protein, but dairy jumps out pretty quickly in the statistics. I also find dairy affects my sinuses, which is the main reason I avoid them religiously now.

Hmm, are you sure you're not related to this guy?

I hope not. Im not afraid of the GM crops, but the sound of that guy still gives me the chills.

Oh, and that was pretty funny by the way. I think Ill end my night on here laughing at that.

Thanks.

[nietzsche]

Let's be smart here.

We have not enough evidence, and only time will tell. This new products might give us many chronic diseases. MIGHT. If I could I would only eat organic, but the awareness is not as big here as in the US, so there aren't many options. Just for caution.

Meanwhile, it's cheaper to produce GM than organic, and that wins. Corporations like Monsanto aren't into GM because they have a pact with the devil and want to do evil things, they are just good at making money.

That guy in the article (which I didn't read) is probably getting something out of it. Let's not be stupid. Piensa mal y acertaras.