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Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

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Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Crazyirishman on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:10 pm

Hey all, this is a fun lil thing I got from my formal logic course.

http://www.princeton.edu/~grosen/puc/phi203/ontological.html
http://www.trinity.edu/cbrown/intro/ont ... ument.html
Therefore, Lord, who grant understanding to faith, grant me that, in so far as you know it beneficial, I understand that you are as we believe and you are that which we believe. Now we believe that you are something than which nothing greater can be imagined.

Then is there no such nature, since the fool has said in his heart: God is not? But certainly this same fool, when he hears this very thing that I am saying - something than which nothing greater can be imagined - understands what he hears; and what he understands is in his understanding, even if he does not understand that it is. For it is one thing for a thing to be in the understanding and another to understand that a thing is.

For when a painter imagines beforehand what he is going to make, he has in his undertanding what he has not yet made but he does not yet understand that it is. But when he has already painted it, he both has in his understanding what he has already painted and understands that it is.
Therefore even the fool is bound to agree that there is at least in the understanding something than which nothing greater can be imagined, because when he hears this he understands it, and whatever is understood is in the understanding.

And certainly that than which a greater cannot be imagined cannot be in the understanding alone. For if it is at least in the understanding alone, it can be imagined to be in reality too, which is greater. Therefore if that than which a greater cannot be imagined is in the understanding alone, that very thing than which a greater cannot be imagined is something than which a greater can be imagined. But certainly this cannot be. There exists, therefore, beyond doubt something than which a greater cannot be imagined, both in the understanding and in reality.


1. God is something than which nothing greater can be conceived. (definition of "God")
2. If someone understands the concept of God (i.e. the concept of something than which nothing greater can be conceived) then God "exists in the understanding" of that person. (definition of "exists in the understanding")
3. It is greater to exist in reality than in the understanding alone. (More precisely: if x exists in the understanding but not in reality, and y is exactly like x except that y also exists in reality, then y is greater than x.)
4. The fool understands the concept of God (= the concept of something than which nothing greater can be conceived).
5. Therefore (from 2 and 4) God exists in the understanding of the fool.
6. Suppose for the sake of argument that God exists only in the understanding of the fool (i.e. not in reality as well). (This assumption will form the basis of a reductio ad absurdum.)
7. Then we could conceive of something exactly like what exists in the fool's understanding except that it also exists in reality.
8. The entity that we conceived in 7 would be greater than the entity that exists only in the fool's understanding (by 3)
9. But in that case what the fool conceived was not after all something than which nothing greater can be conceived (after all, we've just conceived of something greater).
10. So we have a contradiction! (Between 5 and 9)
11. So the assumption we made in 6 must be mistaken (since it led to a contradiction).
12. So God exists in reality. (6 was the assumption that God does not exist in reality; since 6 is mistaken, God does exist in reality.)


It turns out that it is formally valid, so the controversy lies in the soundness of the argument. Which of the premises would you argue against in order to prove the argument unsound? Otherwise I view it to be a fairly convincing argument in a Cartesian sort of way.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:15 pm

I've always taken exception with 3. "Greater" is subjective and the concepts of "understanding" and "reality" are pretty ambiguous.

Not to mention the inherent contradiction of the idea of "greatest". The greatest being can do anything, right? Then that means he CANT do nothing, which means he can't do something, which means he can't do everything. Which is a contradiction.

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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby nietzsche on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:19 pm

Plato warned us about sophists long ago.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Crazyirishman on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:26 pm

Army of GOD wrote:I've always taken exception with 3. "Greater" is subjective and the concepts of "understanding" and "reality" are pretty ambiguous.


I've had a problem with that premise as well. but for a different reason. The concepts of understanding and reality make sense to me, but my issue lies within the idea that reality is better than understanding. A god that exists in in reality would be superior to one that exist in only understanding in my eyes, but a counter example that thoughts of in my class was that of a horror movie. For example the monster that you can imagine is behind the door will always in reality be less than that of what you can imagine i.e. if you see a fifty armed monster you can imagine one with 51 arms that bigger and scarier.

Another principle of the argument that people have issue with is whether or not existence is a necessary quality of a philosopher's God.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Army of GOD on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:28 pm

nietzsche wrote:Plato warned us about Christians long ago.


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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:33 pm

1. Who says that's the definition of God?
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby chang50 on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:40 pm

Never that impressed by the ontological arguments for God,they are no stronger than the teleological or Kalam cosmological.AoG is correct to question premise 3.Premise 4 is problematic as well,how can that be known?Seems like a sophisticated attempt to define God into existence IMHO.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Crazyirishman on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:14 am

nietzsche wrote:Plato warned us about sophists long ago.


Yes he did, I didn't really see this as a sophist argument though. To me it seems more along the lines of a St. Augustine type argument.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby nietzsche on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:20 am

Crazyirishman wrote:
nietzsche wrote:Plato warned us about sophists long ago.


Yes he did, I didn't really see this as a sophist argument though. To me it seems more along the lines of a St. Augustine type argument.


Or a Tomas Aquinas.

Pretty much those kind of things kept me for appreciating Philosophy in college, I went to college in a catholic university and in every class we went through arguments like those.

Seems like 2 opposites sides, trying to prove God with logic. Pretty much you always start with

1. God exists.

Since 1, we can deduce/conclude that iudufidsufjadsaoidjasi
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:21 am

(beginning) God exists as a thought in our mind.
(middle): He has qualifications which make him exist as a concept and as an entity.
(end) Therefore, he exists.


He makes this implicit jump from arguing for the existence of an idea in the mind ("understanding in god" or "concept of God") and into the conclusion "God exists in reality" (i.e. God exists no longer as an idea). In the middle, he plops out a 'wham-bam' contradiction, but it is irrelevant from the beginning:


Based on the definition from 1-3,

1. God is something than which nothing greater can be conceived.
3. It is greater to exist in reality than in the understanding alone.

1. (In other words, "god" is the greatest concept/idea evar. You could never imagine a greater concept/idea.)
Three is the problem spot.

(#3 is false)
In some cases it is not greater exist in reality than in the understanding alone. Would we rather understand Nazism or re-live it?

(#3 is dubious/of unknown validity)
It is possible that the concept of God would best exist in the 'understanding' alone, thus "God can exist greater in the understanding alone."



And what jones said
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:27 am

Also this remInds me of an argument in a smalL-press book I have about King Arthur. (I have a lot of those).
(1) People have seen King Arthur's ghost
(2) Non-existent people cannot have ghosts
(3) therefore King Arthur was real.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:29 am

And if I can imagine god, I can imagine a god-maker. Which is by definition greater than god.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:08 am

1. God is something than which nothing greater can be conceived. (definition of "God")


1. Assume G exists such that G is the greatest thing I can conceive of.
2. Imagine G1 exists which is exactly the same as G in every way except G1 can beat G at ping-pong
3. This means G1 is greater than G
4. Reductio ad absurdum, this shows that the assumption in 1 is wrong. There is no greatest thing I can conceive of (in the same way as there is no greatest number I can conceive of)
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby macbone on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:30 am

But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.

But I agree, I'm not sure 1 is the best definition of "God."

It's the definition of the word "greater" that's more problematic. If greater means better, then no, incest, Nazis, and the KKK are all better existing as ideas, not as realities.

But if by "greater" it means higher or more powerful, then yeah, the 51-armed monster that's behind my door is more powerful than the one that exists solely in my head.

I should have taken some philosophy classes in college, though. The problem with studying literature is that you can pretty much argue whatever you want as long as you back it up with evidence from the text.

I'm not convinced one can prove the existence of God through logic, though.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Haggis_McMutton on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:59 am

macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:10 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.


Oh yeah? Well, I just thought of one. Go ahead, prove me wrong.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:04 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.


Oh yeah? Well, I just thought of one. Go ahead, prove me wrong.


Describe. please.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby crispybits on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:55 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.


Oh yeah? Well, I just thought of one. Go ahead, prove me wrong.


I'll assume you have thought of the best possible ping pong player. Given that the natural ability required in order to never miss a shot and always hit the ball exactly where you want it almost effortlessly, I'd be willing to bet I could find another being that would be more experienced in overcoming against the odds chances of winning a ping pong game.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby BigBallinStalin on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:08 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Haggis_McMutton wrote:
macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.


Oh yeah? Well, I just thought of one. Go ahead, prove me wrong.


Describe. please.


How can I? The English language has no words which can be used to truly describe the supreme greatness of God. Alas, I am bound by the constraints of our human language.

(Also directed at crispybits).
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:52 pm

Then you can't imagine it.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby jonesthecurl on Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:54 pm

Anyhow this pre-semantics chop-logic has a lot of verbiage which means no more than "If I can imagine it it must exist". Which is stoopid.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby Crazyirishman on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:14 am

I always thought the the argument revolved around whether existence is a necessary property for some. But I guess I got something else out of reading it.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby rdsrds2120 on Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:30 am

I think it cops out the word 'existing'. Looks like the author meant that the concept of God exists.

I had the most fun reading macbone's post :P

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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:52 pm

God is the big bang, the big bang is god.
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Re: Philosophic discussion #37- Anselm's argument for God

Postby usernamer on Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:46 pm

Haggis_McMutton wrote:
macbone wrote:But isn't that missing the point, though? If jonesthecurl's God-maker exists, then that person is God, and if we can imagine a God-maker^∞+1, that's God. It's not so much a refutation of 1 as it is a limitation of our imaginative ability.

By the same token, Haggis's G∞ would be God.


The point is there is no upper limit. No matter how good you are at ping-pong I can imagine a being that is even better. Therefore there is no "greatest" being.


That's assuming God is defined in such a way that God can be created... maybe if God created {everything} (maybe excluding God), then either you can't define the maker of God, or the maker made God, but since this maker is included in {everything}, God made the maker ==> God >= the maker?
Idk... I'm too tired to think properly, but basically how do you know that God can be made?
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