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Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

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Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:47 pm

Pope Francis had a stark warning for those who listened to his latest homily at St. Martha’s House, about the dangers of today’s rising secularism: Don’t fall into the pit of progressivism, which puts the emphasis on the collective instead of on the spirit of the individual.

Specifically, the pope spoke against ā€œadolescent progressivism,ā€ Vatican Radio reported. He said that those who were tempted to fall in line with such popular, worldly beliefs should resist and overcome. Hold on to faith, he said, and don’t take the bite of the ā€œprogressiveā€ apple – a label he defined as a cultural and political move toward a single-minded purpose that may not bring benefits for all.

ā€œThe spirit of worldliness also exists today, today also brings us this desire to be progressive, following a single thought,ā€ the pontiff said.

He advised believers to sidestep the ā€œspirit of the word that negotiates everything.ā€ In other words, some things are absolutes, he suggested. The pope also counseled followers of the faith to stand fast on principle, and avoid compromising on values, just to be accepted by the world.

ā€œAnd this is a contradiction — we do not negotiate values, but faithfulness. And this is the fruit of the devil, the prince of this world, who leads us forward with the spirit of worldliness.ā€


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2lFFomq2l
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Frigidus on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:07 pm

He's also against condoms. I wouldn't exactly be going to the Pope for life advice.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Phatscotty on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:22 pm

Frigidus wrote:He's also against condoms.


Well, yah.....that's how you get more Catholics.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby mrswdk on Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:35 pm

The pope also counseled followers of the faith to stand fast on principle, and avoid compromising on values, just to be accepted by the world.


Mandem's got bare stones.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby crispybits on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:49 am

Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:58 am

Phatscotty wrote:
ā€œAnd this is the fruit of the devil, the prince of this world, who leads us forward with the spirit of worldliness.ā€



I was going to say I don't believe an evil, fire breathing monster is supporting American political campaigns, but then I looked it up and it turns out the Devil actually donated $1,000 last year to Claire McCaskill -

http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/searc ... onor+Query

- so I guess the Pope is right.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:06 am

Not that this is new, every Pope in the last 50 years has called for the capitalist system to be abolished and replaced with the official Vatican economic philosophy, Distributism, but Francis is sticking with it, apparently ...

Pope Francis criticized what he called "savage capitalism" on a visit to a food kitchen on Tuesday, in an address in which he called for the values of generosity and charity to be revived.

"A savage capitalism has taught the logic of profit at any cost, of giving in order to get, of exploitation without thinking of people... and we see the results in the crisis we are experiencing," the pope said.

Francis greeted the men and women coming to the 'Gift of Maria' food kitchen, located at the walls of the Vatican.

The first non-European pontiff in centuries, the Argentine-born pope last week called for financial reform, condemning a "dictatorship of the economy" and a "cult of money".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... 2K20130521
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Lord Arioch on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:17 am

My gut says that everything the pope is against im for... :D
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:55 am

crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


Oh, I thought you were talking about the Progressive Left. :D
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:25 am

crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


To be fair to the pope, he was pretty specifically talking to and about Catholics, not to or about non-Catholics. Well, actually, does it count as cult tactics if the audience is already part of the cult?

Based on what I've read, seen, and heard thus far, the pope seems to be more concerned about personal salvation and morality than about forcing morality on others (i.e. non-Catholics). I support that notion, not just because I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but because Catholics are far from perfect when it comes to their own religion so there's a lot to focus on there.

For example, why would I denigrate a non-Catholic for whatever when I've got my own moral and ethical and religious issues?
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:24 am

thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


To be fair to the pope, he was pretty specifically talking to and about Catholics, not to or about non-Catholics. Well, actually, does it count as cult tactics if the audience is already part of the cult?

Based on what I've read, seen, and heard thus far, the pope seems to be more concerned about personal salvation and morality than about forcing morality on others (i.e. non-Catholics). I support that notion, not just because I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but because Catholics are far from perfect when it comes to their own religion so there's a lot to focus on there.

For example, why would I denigrate a non-Catholic for whatever when I've got my own moral and ethical and religious issues?


Do you think the pope's comments have no effect on non-Catholics?

If his followers seriously believe in his message, would that result in no effect on non-Catholics?

Given his anti-capitalism/money/profit/secularism diatribe, I find it hard to believe in the underlined.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby crispybits on Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:32 pm

TGD, when the pope renounces the catholic churches claim to ownership of the exclusive source of morality, tells catholics that they should allow non-believers to live as they please (including things like getting abortions, using condoms, or marrying their gay partners) and not use scripture or religious principle as a basis for secular law, then I'll be quiet when he tells those who follow him/his cult from a voluntary and informed standpoint to do anything (legal) they like that doesn't affect others. Unfortunately I don't even see a hint of anything remotely resembling that just yet, so for now I will continue to criticise that particular cult.

I do like how cult is semantically so close to the word I really want to use for most of the people in church higher leadership positions (of any church, not just the pope's one)
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:02 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


To be fair to the pope, he was pretty specifically talking to and about Catholics, not to or about non-Catholics. Well, actually, does it count as cult tactics if the audience is already part of the cult?

Based on what I've read, seen, and heard thus far, the pope seems to be more concerned about personal salvation and morality than about forcing morality on others (i.e. non-Catholics). I support that notion, not just because I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but because Catholics are far from perfect when it comes to their own religion so there's a lot to focus on there.

For example, why would I denigrate a non-Catholic for whatever when I've got my own moral and ethical and religious issues?


Do you think the pope's comments have no effect on non-Catholics?

If his followers seriously believe in his message, would that result in no effect on non-Catholics?

Given his anti-capitalism/money/profit/secularism diatribe, I find it hard to believe in the underlined.


I don't know if they have an effect on non-Catholics. It doesn't seem to appear to affect you or crispy.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:17 pm

What, is this the 1100s or some shit? Why does anyone care about what the Pope says?
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby nietzsche on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:18 pm

Army of GOD wrote:What, is this the 1100s or some shit? Why does anyone care about what the Pope says?


Oh yeah.. "the pope isn't Polish anymore so I don't care"
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby Army of GOD on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:25 pm

nietzsche wrote:
Army of GOD wrote:What, is this the 1100s or some shit? Why does anyone care about what the Pope says?


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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:36 pm

thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


To be fair to the pope, he was pretty specifically talking to and about Catholics, not to or about non-Catholics. Well, actually, does it count as cult tactics if the audience is already part of the cult?

Based on what I've read, seen, and heard thus far, the pope seems to be more concerned about personal salvation and morality than about forcing morality on others (i.e. non-Catholics). I support that notion, not just because I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but because Catholics are far from perfect when it comes to their own religion so there's a lot to focus on there.

For example, why would I denigrate a non-Catholic for whatever when I've got my own moral and ethical and religious issues?


Do you think the pope's comments have no effect on non-Catholics?

If his followers seriously believe in his message, would that result in no effect on non-Catholics?

Given his anti-capitalism/money/profit/secularism diatribe, I find it hard to believe in the underlined.


I don't know if they have an effect on non-Catholics. It doesn't seem to appear to affect you or crispy.


Having people believe in incorrect portrayals of markets has implications for public policies, which do affect us. I don't see how promoting ignorance doesn't affect others.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:42 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
crispybits wrote:Fairly standard cult tactics tbh - isolate an individual from their current social circles before offering them a "new home" with the brotherhood of the church of celebrating human sacrifice, oh sorry I mean the Catholic Church...


To be fair to the pope, he was pretty specifically talking to and about Catholics, not to or about non-Catholics. Well, actually, does it count as cult tactics if the audience is already part of the cult?

Based on what I've read, seen, and heard thus far, the pope seems to be more concerned about personal salvation and morality than about forcing morality on others (i.e. non-Catholics). I support that notion, not just because I'm a live and let live kind of guy, but because Catholics are far from perfect when it comes to their own religion so there's a lot to focus on there.

For example, why would I denigrate a non-Catholic for whatever when I've got my own moral and ethical and religious issues?


Do you think the pope's comments have no effect on non-Catholics?

If his followers seriously believe in his message, would that result in no effect on non-Catholics?

Given his anti-capitalism/money/profit/secularism diatribe, I find it hard to believe in the underlined.


I don't know if they have an effect on non-Catholics. It doesn't seem to appear to affect you or crispy.


Having people believe in incorrect portrayals of markets has implications for public policies, which do affect us. I don't see how promoting ignorance doesn't affect others.


Ah, your concern is that Catholic Americans will begin to take a different view of economics than they have currently, which will have an effect on others. That's pretty naive for you.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby BigBallinStalin on Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:10 pm

Is it naive of me, or are you overlooking something?

Certainly, promoting ignorance leads to negative outcomes if the audience 'contaminates' the political process. Why do you ignore this, which contradicts your initial position? Then you dodge by restricting the scope of this debate to "American Catholics." Why?

What is the Catholic American economic perspective? I can't really tell if it's changing, but that's not that relevant. If they buy into the pope's propaganda, which politically results in poor outcomes, then obviously the pope's speeches have either led or reinforced his followers' beliefs into forcing their morality onto others. Religious beliefs become actualized within the political process. This has happened in the past as well, so I find it odd that you reject that this does not affect non-Catholics. Maybe you'd like to update your stance?
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby smegal69 on Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:49 pm

Phatscotty wrote:
Frigidus wrote:He's also against condoms.


Well, yah.....that's how you get more Catholics.


and here i was thinking they did it to get more back door action :shock:
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:30 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:Is it naive of me, or are you overlooking something?

Certainly, promoting ignorance leads to negative outcomes if the audience 'contaminates' the political process. Why do you ignore this, which contradicts your initial position? Then you dodge by restricting the scope of this debate to "American Catholics." Why?

What is the Catholic American economic perspective? I can't really tell if it's changing, but that's not that relevant. If they buy into the pope's propaganda, which politically results in poor outcomes, then obviously the pope's speeches have either led or reinforced his followers' beliefs into forcing their morality onto others. Religious beliefs become actualized within the political process. This has happened in the past as well, so I find it odd that you reject that this does not affect non-Catholics. Maybe you'd like to update your stance?


It's naive of you. In the context of social issues, you are correct that the Church's stance has resulted in relevant American political changes (e.g. pro-life issues). Even from that perspective, I anecdotally don't know many Catholics who vote for politicians purely based on social issues (plus, IIRC, our pro-choice president won 52%+ of the Catholic vote).

But economically, what do Catholics in the United States do? I'd say, again anecdotally, Catholics in the United States are as capitalism-istic as anyone else. There is no collectivity except on a non-government basis (i.e. we don't like paying taxes, we like giving money to the poor). So, yeah, I think it's naive of you to think that the pope's statements have any significant (or insignificant) effect on American Catholics, who are, in almost all cases, good American capitalists first, Catholics second. The pope is not espousing new ideas; these have been the same thing the Church has put forward for hundreds of years. I know thousands of Catholics, none of whom believe in collectivism, all of whom ignore the pope when it comes to these types of economic issues. The only pro-collectivism that exists with American Catholics is that they give money to charities and some of them are members of unions.

So I guess you're putting too much emphasis on the pope's words. I understand your concerns about ignorance generally, but, as I've stated before, people should spend their time on more important issues than issues that have little to no effect. So, I suppose you can waste your time lambasting papal collectivism, but, in my opinion, it's as wasteful as lambasting colleges and universities for hiring liberal professors because they may indoctrinate students.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby mrswdk on Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:03 am

I don't see why abortion shouldn't become a political issue due to a significant amount of religious citizens being opposed to abortion on principle, if it's okay for gun control to become a political issue due to a significant amount of citizens being opposed to gun control on whatever principle they have.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:36 am

mrswdk wrote:I don't see why abortion shouldn't become a political issue due to a significant amount of religious citizens being opposed to abortion on principle, if it's okay for gun control to become a political issue due to a significant amount of citizens being opposed to gun control on whatever principle they have.


Yeah. I'm on the opposite side of that. I think religion and government should be divided completely. If the reason one is pro-life is because of religion, and that person's solution is to have government activtiy, that bothers me.
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby mrswdk on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:00 am

So what if I'm an atheist who morally objects to abortion? Is it okay for me to call for government involvement?
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Re: Pope Warns of the Dangers of Progressivism

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:20 am

mrswdk wrote:So what if I'm an atheist who morally objects to abortion? Is it okay for me to call for government involvement?


Sure.
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