Congratulations to the People of Macedonia

[DoomYoshi]

Yet another country chooses autocracy. Let us cheer them on as only the CC forum can.

According to OSCE,

the Macedonian government “failed to meet important OSCE commitments, including on the separation of state and party, on ensuring a level playing field, on the neutrality of the media, on the accuracy of the voters list and on the possibility of gaining redress through an effective complaints procedure.

The SDSM, who won 34 seats are now going to return them to the ruling party who is fraudulent anyway.

[saxitoxin]

I would probably oppose the OSCE's position on this if I knew anything about Macedonia. However, all I know of it is that GoranZ is from there and they gave Jay Gatsby a medal in The Great Gatsby.

Until someone corrects me, I'm going to just guess that Macedonia probably has some kind of folk music that involves accordions, a national food that includes dumplings, some kind of extravagant hat they're know for wearing, maybe once scored an upset win in Eurovision, and has a legendary story that involves a raven or a wolf giving birth to the national hero.

GoranZ seems like an intelligent guy so I'll support however he comes down on this thread.

edit - my mistake, it was Montenegro who gave Gatsby a medal

[Dukasaur]

GoranZ loves KGB operatives running countries, so I'm sure he's thrilled with the news.

[notyou2]

Yay Macedonia. You go girl.

[GoranZ]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't give us. I wish we knew that both manuals were bad ... but I guess our inexperience with Capitalism had some influence on our decisions back then.

P.S. OSCE are imbeciles(literally), the same problems with Macedonian elections apply for every elections we had since we declared independence and now they decided to point them as problems IDK why they were bothering now. And whats interesting both ruling party and opposition had used the same system of pressure on the voters for the last 23 years.

GoranZ loves KGB operatives running countries, so I'm sure he's thrilled with the news.

What news Democracy mixed with Capitalism has serious BUGS and we accepted it as bugless

[saxitoxin]

I have decided to back and support GoranZ's opinion.

Also, the other year, Austrian MEP Ewald Stadler - who worked as an elections LTO for the OSCE in a different country - called the OSCE's method for observing elections "absurd" and "rubbish."

[notyou2]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't give us. I wish we knew that both manuals were bad ... but I guess our inexperience with Capitalism had some influence on our decisions back then.

P.S. OSCE are imbeciles(literally), the same problems with Macedonian elections apply for every elections we had since we declared independence and now they decided to point them as problems IDK why they were bothering now. And whats interesting both ruling party and opposition had used the same system of pressure on the voters for the last 23 years.

GoranZ loves KGB operatives running countries, so I'm sure he's thrilled with the news.

What news Democracy mixed with Capitalism has serious BUGS and we accepted it as bugless

If you think there aren't bugs in all political systems you are severely naive.

[GoranZ]

Democracy mixed with Capitalism has serious BUGS

If you think there aren't bugs in all political systems you are severely naive.

Read my sentence, I did say serious bugs, which presumes that some bugs are expected. But if you still think that I'm naive then you have serous problems

I almost forgot Thank you for caring about democracy in my country

[Endgame422]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't

So the problem with the Macedonian political system is that the politicians do not smoke enough weed? Seems like an easy fix.

[GoranZ]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't

So the problem with the Macedonian political system is that the politicians do not smoke enough weed? Seems like an easy fix.

The ugly truth can not be changed so easily First we need Canadians to give us the manual for weed jk

No the problem is much more complicated then it looks. In the last 20+ years people that were employed in public service were mainly inadequate for the places they work on. So when ever there are elections they have fears for their working places since they practically dont deserve them, and they usually tend to vote for ruling party. Quite simple concept, employ someone that is not qualified and ensure his vote for much of his life.
I dont think that this will change in the near future since there is no political party that want to change it, not a single one.
The only quick exit from the situation is fix in the Democracy, those that wont vote will produce empty seats in the parliament. In this case those that are not satisfied with the politics of the current parties simply wont vote. And that will represent over 40% empty seats, which is huge number. But these are only my dreams that wont happen in any country

[patches70]

Same sort of thing happened with Greece. A huge segment of the population working public service jobs, kept voting for politicians to increase the number and wages of those types of jobs along with generous pension and other perks and it all imploded because it simply couldn't be afforded.
And all the while the politicians cooking the books to make it appear less costly than it was until the day came when economic reality came knocking, as it always does.


It's a vicious cycle, that's for sure, and it's hard to break out of it until it's too late and things turn ugly. It's all a matter of pain now or later. Taking the pain now is better because the pain later will always be much worse. Either way, it involves a lot of tough choices that are going to hurt no matter what.

But after the pain the healing starts, and hopefully people are wiser. If everyone fails to learn from the mistakes then the mistakes will just be repeated.

It is said history repeats itself. It's more like people just keep making the same stupid decisions over and over and makes it appear like a cyclonic history.

[notyou2]

STOP THE NEPOTISM!!!!!

Oust the corrupt!!!!!

[notyou2]

I got a better idea. If you and all the other Russians living in Macedonia whine loud enough Putin will come to your aid, with lots of machines and new uniforms, and hand held tools.

[DoomYoshi]

I think what GoranZ describes is indeed a huge problem facing most democracies.

[Dukasaur]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't give us. I wish we knew that both manuals were bad ... but I guess our inexperience with Capitalism had some influence on our decisions back then.

P.S. OSCE are imbeciles(literally), the same problems with Macedonian elections apply for every elections we had since we declared independence and now they decided to point them as problems IDK why they were bothering now. And whats interesting both ruling party and opposition had used the same system of pressure on the voters for the last 23 years.

GoranZ loves KGB operatives running countries, so I'm sure he's thrilled with the news.

What news Democracy mixed with Capitalism has serious BUGS and we accepted it as bugless

In all seriousness, I don't blame you. All the communist countries got screwed in pretty much the same manner.

The proper transition from Communism to Capitalism is to distribute shares in all the state enterprises directly, either to all citizens, or to the workers in those enterprises. Overnight, everyone is a capitalist, everyone has a chance. Instead, the ruling juntas distributed the state enterprises mostly to themselves, or to foreign investors, and almost never to the people. A beautiful opportunity to create a new society was sold down the river, and almost nobody understood what had just happened.

You're right to distrust the West, because the Western bankers and their stooges were there every step of the way, teaching the KGB apparatchiks how to rob the people more efficiently.

I remember writing letters to Vaclav Havel. Don't join NATO, don't talk to the IMF, don't accept any favours from those wolves in sheep's clothing. Create real capitalism without the criminal concept of limited liability, create a homegrown capitalism where everyone has to be responsible for their own misdeeds. The parasitical ersatz crony capitalism that Wall Street and the IMF are selling is not far from Communism. Of course I might as well have thrown sand at the beach.

The western elites are every bit as criminal as the eastern elites.

[saxitoxin]

When we declared independence on 8-th of September 1991 we received 2 tokens of friendship from Canada. They were both order manuals for unknown(for us) tool called Capitalism but we were allowed to chose only one. First one was how to force workers who work for the state to vote for the ruling party, and second one was how politicians to smoke weed(all day long) and act like they dont. Since back then it was early autumn and there was no time for growing enough weed for all the politicians the ruling authorities chose to keep and use the order manual with instructions for bribing state workers. And here we are now after all these years we are still using the same manual, and Canadians use the one that they didn't give us. I wish we knew that both manuals were bad ... but I guess our inexperience with Capitalism had some influence on our decisions back then.

P.S. OSCE are imbeciles(literally), the same problems with Macedonian elections apply for every elections we had since we declared independence and now they decided to point them as problems IDK why they were bothering now. And whats interesting both ruling party and opposition had used the same system of pressure on the voters for the last 23 years.

GoranZ loves KGB operatives running countries, so I'm sure he's thrilled with the news.

What news Democracy mixed with Capitalism has serious BUGS and we accepted it as bugless

In all seriousness, I don't blame you. All the communist countries got screwed in pretty much the same manner.

The proper transition from Communism to Capitalism is to distribute shares in all the state enterprises directly, either to all citizens, or to the workers in those enterprises. Overnight, everyone is a capitalist, everyone has a chance. Instead, the ruling juntas distributed the state enterprises mostly to themselves, or to foreign investors, and almost never to the people. A beautiful opportunity to create a new society was sold down the river, and almost nobody understood what had just happened.

+1,000 SaxBucks

You're right to distrust the West, because the Western bankers and their stooges were there every step of the way, teaching the KGB apparatchiks how to rob the people more efficiently.

These stooges are not just nameless, faceless entities. They have names, and those names include the International Republican Institute and the National Endowment for Democracy. They still exist and they are still meddling, financing a variety of causes that have very egalitarian sounding names and very lofty missions, but which really have nothing egalitarian or lofty about them (Ukraine - http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/eurasia/ukraine / Macedonia - http://www.ned.org/where-we-work/centra ... /macedonia). And, the stooges are funded directly by the U.S. taxpayers - http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/? ... OC_120693&.

In 1991 Romania had $0 in external debt. Today, after three decades of the NED and IRI's efforts to "provide capacity building tools to civil society organizations," it is saddled with crippling, crushing debt, rampant poverty, and mass unemployment.

[Endgame422]

The ugly truth can not be changed so easily First we need Canadians to give us the manual for weed jk

No the problem is much more complicated then it looks. In the last 20+ years people that were employed in public service were mainly inadequate for the places they work on. So when ever there are elections they have fears for their working places since they practically dont deserve them, and they usually tend to vote for ruling party. Quite simple concept, employ someone that is not qualified and ensure his vote for much of his life.
I dont think that this will change in the near future since there is no political party that want to change it, not a single one.
The only quick exit from the situation is fix in the Democracy, those that wont vote will produce empty seats in the parliament. In this case those that are not satisfied with the politics of the current parties simply wont vote. And that will represent over 40% empty seats, which is huge number. But these are only my dreams that wont happen in any country

Here not the United states we have a similar system except it's more complex(although give it another 100 years of Macedonian practices and we shall see). Here, with regards to direct employment within the government we also have those who are indirectly dependent upon state and federal money. Welfare,unemployment,section 8 housing and what have you. The problem with this is some people are so dependent upon the feds sending them some freshly printed dollars that any real change within the government system would cause them to lose everything, which in turn is a primary reason that government controlled anything is so difficult to change. So we just pretend we have 2 political parties and thAt things are always changing, which is usually enough to keep the average citizen from pushing for any actual improvements/changes from their government and allows the ruling class to go about their business of raping andpillaging those people who they are supposedly helping with the government programs and the unqualified employees of the state. So I guess what I am asking you is are you sure your handbook came from Canada?

[GoranZ]

I got a better idea. If you and all the other Russians living in Macedonia whine loud enough Putin will come to your aid, with lots of machines and new uniforms, and hand held tools.

If you only know how much you dont know... the world would be much better place for you and for everyone around you

The western elites are every bit as criminal as the eastern elites.

Too late... Marketing is a bitch

The ugly truth can not be changed so easily First we need Canadians to give us the manual for weed jk

No the problem is much more complicated then it looks. In the last 20+ years people that were employed in public service were mainly inadequate for the places they work on. So when ever there are elections they have fears for their working places since they practically dont deserve them, and they usually tend to vote for ruling party. Quite simple concept, employ someone that is not qualified and ensure his vote for much of his life.
I dont think that this will change in the near future since there is no political party that want to change it, not a single one.
The only quick exit from the situation is fix in the Democracy, those that wont vote will produce empty seats in the parliament. In this case those that are not satisfied with the politics of the current parties simply wont vote. And that will represent over 40% empty seats, which is huge number. But these are only my dreams that wont happen in any country

Here not the United states we have a similar system except it's more complex(although give it another 100 years of Macedonian practices and we shall see). Here, with regards to direct employment within the government we also have those who are indirectly dependent upon state and federal money. Welfare,unemployment,section 8 housing and what have you. The problem with this is some people are so dependent upon the feds sending them some freshly printed dollars that any real change within the government system would cause them to lose everything, which in turn is a primary reason that government controlled anything is so difficult to change. So we just pretend we have 2 political parties and thAt things are always changing, which is usually enough to keep the average citizen from pushing for any actual improvements/changes from their government and allows the ruling class to go about their business of raping andpillaging those people who they are supposedly helping with the government programs and the unqualified employees of the state. So I guess what I am asking you is are you sure your handbook came from Canada?

No the story of the handbooks from Canada was a joke ... although the joke is not far from the truth
I'm perfectly aware how American Capitalism is functioning... Mainly by creating debt and printing money. When that debt becomes too large(every 25-30 year) there is recession which eats ~10 years of progress. So basically most of the Americans are actually enslaved(having personal debt makes someone practically a slave). Presence of democracy and free press(although IDK how free is it recently) doesn't change a lot since its influence is practically minimized. As I said previously democracy can hardly be combined with capitalism, since both systems have almost nothing in common. And there is no country in the world that can say that it has democracy, not in its original meaning of the word(government ruled by the people).
In most of the countries where there is voting the turnout is ~60%, that is divided between many parties, and there is a question in which country majority of all voters actually chose the most popular option(not voting usually means that none of the options is good enough).

[DoomYoshi]

Bring back debtor's prison!!!!

[Jmac1026]

Bring back Alexander the Great!

[patches70]

Bring back Alexander the Great!

Haha! Exactly my thinking, Macedonia needs to birth another Alexander the Great and then it's all roses after that. Except for non Macedonians, but who gives a shit about them! Alexander the Great would bring civilization to all the other barbarian peoples of the world. And those that survive will be better off for it.

Heh heh.

[GoranZ]

Bring back Alexander the Great!

Haha! Exactly my thinking, Macedonia needs to birth another Alexander the Great and then it's all roses after that. Except for non Macedonians, but who gives a shit about them! Alexander the Great would bring civilization to all the other barbarian peoples of the world. And those that survive will be better off for it.

Heh heh.

Technically majority of the nations living in Alexander the Great Empire felt liberated by his conquests... Generally after his death there were no large rebellions by native people and science and literacy flourished.

From today's point of view modern Alexander should take out almost all of the world
Technical nightmare even if everyone surrender without fighting

[DoomYoshi]

Ivanov doesn't seem very "the Great".

[Qwert]

I got a better idea. If you and all the other Russians living in Macedonia whine loud enough Putin will come to your aid, with lots of machines and new uniforms, and hand held tools.

first i dont aware that Goran are Russian, and i think that Russians dont live in MAcedonia.

but Macedonia have other problem and this come from west.

see 2001 year