Conquer Club

Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelmed?

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelmed?

Postby notyou2 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:17 am

Robert Reich


*EXCLUSIVE EXCERPT* from my new book SAVING CAPITALISM: For the Many, Not the Few, out 9/29.

"The Phony Free Market"

It usually occurs in a small theater or a lecture hall. Someone introduces me and then introduces a person who is there to debate me. My debate opponent and I then spend five or ten minutes sparring over the chosen topic—education, poverty, income inequality, taxes, executive pay, middle-class wages, climate change, drug trafficking, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Because, with astounding regularity, the debate soon turns to whether the “free market” is better at doing something than government.

I do not invite this. In fact, as I’ve already said and will soon explain, I view it as a meaningless debate. Worse, it’s a distraction from what we should be debating. Intentional or not, it deflects the public’s attention from what’s really at issue.

Few ideas have more profoundly poisoned the minds of more people than the notion of a “free market” existing somewhere in the universe, into which government “intrudes.” In this view, whatever inequality or insecurity the market generates is assumed to be the natural and inevitable consequence of impersonal “market forces.” What you’re paid is simply a measure of what you’re worth in the market. If you aren’t paid enough to live on, so be it. If others rake in billions, they must be worth it. If millions of people are unemployed or their paychecks are shrinking or they have to work two or three jobs and have no idea what they’ll be earning next month or even next week, that’s unfortunate but it’s the outcome of “market forces.”

According to this view, whatever we might do to reduce inequality or economic insecurity—to make the economy work for most of us—runs the risk of distorting the market and causing it to be less efficient, or of producing unintended consequences that may end up harming us. Although market imperfections such as pollution or unsafe workplaces, or the need for public goods such as basic research or even aid to the poor, may require the government to intervene on occasion, these instances are exceptions to the general rule that the market knows best.

The prevailing view is so dominant that it is now almost taken for granted. It is taught in almost every course on introductory economics. It has found its way into everyday public discourse. One hears it expressed by politicians on both sides of the aisle.

The question typically left to debate is how much intervention is warranted. Conservatives want a smaller government and less intervention; liberals want a larger and more activist government. This has become the interminable debate, the bone of contention that splits left from right in America and in much of the rest of the capitalist world. One’s response to it typically depends on which you trust most (or the least): the government or the “free market.”

But the prevailing view, as well as the debate it has spawned, is utterly false. There can be no “free market” without government. The “free market” does not exist in the wilds beyond the reach of civilization. Competition in the wild is a contest for survival in which the largest and strongest typically win. Civilization, by contrast, is defined by rules; rules create markets, and governments generate the rules. As the seventeenth-century political philosopher Thomas Hobbes put it in his book "Leviathan:"

[in nature] there is no place for industry, because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving and removing such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.

A market—any market—requires that government make and enforce the rules of the game. In most modern democracies, such rules emanate from legislatures, administrative agencies, and courts. Government doesn’t “intrude” on the “free market.” It creates the market.

The rules are neither neutral nor universal, and they are not permanent. Different societies at different times have adopted different versions. The rules partly mirror a society’s evolving norms and values but also reflect who in society has the most power to make or influence them. Yet the interminable debate over whether the “free market” is better than “government” makes it impossible for us to examine who exercises this power, how they benefit from doing so, and whether such rules need to be altered so that more people benefit from them.

The size of government is not unimportant, but the rules for how the free market functions have far greater impact on an economy and a society. Surely it is useful to debate how much government should tax and spend, regulate and subsidize. Yet these issues are at the margin of the economy, while the rules are the economy. It is impossible to have a market system without such rules and without the choices that lie behind them. As the economic historian Karl Polanyi recognized, those who argue for “less government” are really arguing for a different government—often one that favors them or their patrons. “Deregulation” of the financial sector in the United States in the 1980s and 1990s, for example, could more appropriately be described as “reregulation.” It did not mean less government. It meant a different set of rules, initially allowing Wall Street to speculate on a wide assortment of risky but lucrative bets and permitting banks to push mortgages onto people who couldn’t afford them. When the bubble burst in 2008, the government issued rules to protect the assets of the largest banks, subsidize them so they would not go under, and induce them to acquire weaker banks. At the same time, the government enforced other rules that caused millions of people to lose their homes. These were followed by additional rules intended to prevent the banks from engaging in new rounds of risky behavior (although in the view of many experts, these new rules are inadequate).

The critical things to watch out for aren’t the rare big events, such as the 2008 bailout of the Street itself, but the ongoing multitude of small rule changes that continuously alter the economic game. Even a big event’s most important effects are on how the game is played differently thereafter. The bailout of Wall Street created an implicit guarantee that the government would subsidize the biggest banks if they ever got into trouble. This gave the biggest banks a financial advantage over smaller banks and fueled their subsequent growth and dominance over the entire financial sector, which enhanced their subsequent political power to get rules they wanted and avoid those they did not.

The “free market” is a myth that prevents us from examining these rule changes and asking whom they serve. The myth is therefore highly useful to those who do not wish such an examination to be undertaken. It is no accident that those with disproportionate influence over these rules, who are the largest beneficiaries of how the rules have been designed and adapted, are also among the most vehement supporters of the “free market” and the most ardent advocates of the relative superiority of the market over government. But the debate itself also serves their goal of distracting the public from the underlying realities of how the rules are generated and changed, their own power over this process, and the extent to which they gain from the results. In other words, not only do these “free market” advocates want the public to agree with them about the superiority of the market but also about the central importance of this interminable debate.

They are helped by the fact that the underlying rules are well hidden in an economy where so much of what is owned and traded is becoming intangible and complex. Rules governing intellectual property, for example, are harder to see than the rules of an older economy in which property took the tangible forms of land, factories, and machinery. Likewise, monopolies and market power were clearer in the days of giant railroads and oil trusts than they are now, when a Google, Apple, Facebook, or Comcast can gain dominance over a network, platform, or communications system. At the same time, contracts were simpler to parse when buyers and sellers were on more or less equal footing and could easily know or discover what the other party was promising. That was before the advent of complex mortgages, consumer agreements, franchise systems, and employment contracts, all of whose terms are now largely dictated by one party. Similarly, financial obligations were clearer when banking was simpler and the savings of some were loaned to others who wanted to buy homes or start businesses. In today’s world of elaborate financial instruments, by contrast, it is sometimes difficult to tell who owes what to whom, or when, or why.

Before we can understand the consequences of all of this for modern capitalism, it is first necessary to address basic questions about how government has organized and reorganized the market, what interests have had the most influence on this process, and who has gained and who has lost as a result.

***

Should you wish to pre-order: Amazon: http://bit.ly/1F2A9PX; Barnes & Noble: http://bit.ly/1ihgd0M; IndieBound: http://bit.ly/1UW92No

(Excerpted from SAVING CAPITALISM: For the Many, Not the Few by Robert B. Reich. Copyright © 2015 by Robert B. Reich. Excerpted by permission of Knopf, a division of Random House LLC. All rights reserved. No part of this excerpt may be reproduced or reprinted without permission in writing from the publisher.)
Robert Reich's photo.
Last edited by notyou2 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Do you agree?

Postby tzor on Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:29 pm

Generally disagree, but not for the obvious reasons. Robert Reich objects to the notion that there is a “Free Market” verses the “Government” mentality. While I agree to the notion that the “free market” is indeed an illusion, he continues to use the utopian mindset to think that the “Government” is somehow above it all, providing useful services to everyone out of the kindness of their hearts.

That’s not quite correct. Government is a market force, just like any other market force. It has a tendency to become both a monopoly and a “too big to fail” monopoly (and in fact it has done so). Like any other large monopoly, it ceases to do the thing that it was designed to do (easier when you manage to structure yourself so that your revenue is not based on doing your thing effectively in the first place) and becomes an organization for the promotion and well being of the management of the organization.

In other words, the problem of Government, typically expressed in the bureaucracy, is the same as any ultra large monopoly from AT&T to the big auto makers. When regulators write regulations for the sole promotion of the members of the bureaucracy that maintains these regulations, everyone suffers, and in the long run even the members of the bureaucracy.

Yes, rules are important. Who should create and regulate those rules? You don’t want one company to provide you with an important product, why should you have one “company” provide you with the creation and regulation of common rules? Subsidiarity is the key element here. Just like you need to break up a monopoly to keep it from becoming “too big to fail” you need to break up government to the lowest level that is the closest to the situation which can be effective in the job.

Moreover, what is “Government?” Government, of the people, by the people, and for the people, is literally everywhere. It’s a natural function that people will make common agreements. The answer to any problem is not always the monopoly of government, or even the notion of “franchise” government (the states). Government is a good place to create a framework; the framework supports the rules; the rules creates the markets.

“Leviathan” is only a form of monopoly that calls itself “government.”
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: Do you agree?

Postby mrswdk on Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:34 pm

boring book wrote:The critical things to watch out for aren’t the rare big events, such as the 2008 bailout of the Street itself, but the ongoing multitude of small rule changes that continuously alter the economic game. Even a big event’s most important effects are on how the game is played differently thereafter. The bailout of Wall Street created an implicit guarantee that the government would subsidize the biggest banks if they ever got into trouble. This gave the biggest banks a financial advantage over smaller banks and fueled their subsequent growth and dominance over the entire financial sector, which enhanced their subsequent political power to get rules they wanted and avoid those they did not.


lolwat. Assuming all that has happened, it happened in the space between 2008 and now?
Last edited by mrswdk on Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Do you agree?

Postby notyou2 on Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:35 pm

Communitalism
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Do you agree?

Postby subtleknifewield on Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:07 pm

The guy is certainly thought-provoking, I will say that.

I also agree that the market cannot exist in the vacuum known as the wild. Some form of regulation has to exist for it to happen, even if it is an informal and unrecognized sort of regulation.
Sergeant 1st Class subtleknifewield
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Do you agree?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:49 am

It's time to make our government work for all of us... and not just the 1%
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Do you agree?

Postby notyou2 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:41 am

Bernie Sanders wrote:It's time to make our government work for all of us... and not just the 1%


As you know Bernie, that was written by your friend.

GO BERNIE!!!!!
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Do you agree?

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:19 am

notyou2 wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:It's time to make our government work for all of us... and not just the 1%


As you know Bernie, that was written by your friend.

GO BERNIE!!!!!

Thank you for your support, notyou2.

Let us wage a moral and political war against the billionaires and corporate leaders, on Wall Street and elsewhere, whose policies and greed are destroying the middle class of America.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Are You Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelmed?

Postby subtleknifewield on Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:56 pm

And here we go down the rabbit hole!
Sergeant 1st Class subtleknifewield
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Are You Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelmed?

Postby mrswdk on Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:12 pm

How come you see so many clips of Americans making promises to the middle class, but not to the working class? Media bias or have they simply stopped even pretending to care about poor people?
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Are You Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelmed?

Postby subtleknifewield on Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:15 pm

I dunno, I think the middle-class are the ones over-represented when it comes to the polls.

What I mean by this is a sad percentage of those eligible to vote, don't bother, and my theory is that it's largely the poor people who are more worried about making a living than making their voice heard. I have not researched it, however, so if someone can find statistics I am more than willing to revise that theory.
Sergeant 1st Class subtleknifewield
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Do you agree?

Postby notyou2 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:39 pm

tzor wrote:Generally disagree, but not for the obvious reasons. Robert Reich objects to the notion that there is a “Free Market” verses the “Government” mentality. While I agree to the notion that the “free market” is indeed an illusion, he continues to use the utopian mindset to think that the “Government” is somehow above it all, providing useful services to everyone out of the kindness of their hearts.

That’s not quite correct. Government is a market force, just like any other market force. It has a tendency to become both a monopoly and a “too big to fail” monopoly (and in fact it has done so). Like any other large monopoly, it ceases to do the thing that it was designed to do (easier when you manage to structure yourself so that your revenue is not based on doing your thing effectively in the first place) and becomes an organization for the promotion and well being of the management of the organization.

In other words, the problem of Government, typically expressed in the bureaucracy, is the same as any ultra large monopoly from AT&T to the big auto makers. When regulators write regulations for the sole promotion of the members of the bureaucracy that maintains these regulations, everyone suffers, and in the long run even the members of the bureaucracy.

Yes, rules are important. Who should create and regulate those rules? You don’t want one company to provide you with an important product, why should you have one “company” provide you with the creation and regulation of common rules? Subsidiarity is the key element here. Just like you need to break up a monopoly to keep it from becoming “too big to fail” you need to break up government to the lowest level that is the closest to the situation which can be effective in the job.

Moreover, what is “Government?” Government, of the people, by the people, and for the people, is literally everywhere. It’s a natural function that people will make common agreements. The answer to any problem is not always the monopoly of government, or even the notion of “franchise” government (the states). Government is a good place to create a framework; the framework supports the rules; the rules creates the markets.

“Leviathan” is only a form of monopoly that calls itself “government.”


Tzor, government is not a company. It is responsible for the framework of the market, so yes, one entity, an impartial entity, should be responsible. The problem is that the companies have infiltrated the government at the expense of the common people.
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Bernie Sanders on Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:27 pm

The main problem of America is that you're seeing people working all over this country two jobs, they're working three jobs, and they're getting nowhere in a hurry. They're working hard. They can't afford to send their kids to college in many instances. They can't afford child care for their little babies. They're worried to death about retirement.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby notyou2 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:29 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:The main problem of America is that you're seeing people working all over this country two jobs, they're working three jobs, and they're getting nowhere in a hurry. They're working hard. They can't afford to send their kids to college in many instances. They can't afford child care for their little babies. They're worried to death about retirement.


I agree with you. I share those worries. My disposable income has shrunk year after year for the last 5 or 6 years. I am going backwards, not forwards.
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby mrswdk on Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:13 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:The main problem of America is that you're seeing people working all over this country two jobs, they're working three jobs, and they're getting nowhere in a hurry. They're working hard. They can't afford to send their kids to college in many instances. They can't afford child care for their little babies. They're worried to death about retirement.


I agree with you. I share those worries. My disposable income has shrunk year after year for the last 5 or 6 years. I am going backwards, not forwards.


Welcome to a world in which WASPs are increasingly unable to cream off 99% of the world's wealth without pulling their fingers out and working for it.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby notyou2 on Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:58 pm

mrswdk wrote:
notyou2 wrote:
Bernie Sanders wrote:The main problem of America is that you're seeing people working all over this country two jobs, they're working three jobs, and they're getting nowhere in a hurry. They're working hard. They can't afford to send their kids to college in many instances. They can't afford child care for their little babies. They're worried to death about retirement.


I agree with you. I share those worries. My disposable income has shrunk year after year for the last 5 or 6 years. I am going backwards, not forwards.


Welcome to a world in which WASPs are increasingly unable to cream off 99% of the world's wealth without pulling their fingers out and working for it.



I work as hard as I ever did for less, and less, and less.

The economy is stagnating here, and elsewhere I believe as well. Where I live there are 2 families that control 2 separate very large empires, including this province. Their slow siphoning, particularly one of them, has lead to a stagnant economy resulting in less work for less money. If we don't take back control and make them carry their weight, instead of the tax payers carrying them, we will all suffocate or starve. I will need to move if this keeps up. I am not joking mrswdk, I am serious.
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Bernie Sanders on Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:20 pm

One in four U.S. corporations doesn't pay any taxes.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Serbia on Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:20 pm

tl; dr

Bollocks in 2015.
CONFUSED? YOU'LL KNOW WHEN YOU'RE RIPE
saxitoxin wrote:Serbia is a RUDE DUDE
may not be a PRUDE, but he's gotta 'TUDE
might not be LEWD, but he's gonna get BOOED
RUDE
User avatar
Captain Serbia
 
Posts: 12267
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:10 pm
Location: Detroit

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Dukasaur on Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:42 pm

Bernie Sanders wrote:One in four U.S. corporations doesn't pay any taxes.

One in four oceans doesn't belong in a bagel shop.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.”
― Voltaire
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Dukasaur
Community Team
Community Team
 
Posts: 28152
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:49 pm
Location: Beautiful Niagara
32

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby mrswdk on Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:04 am

notyou2 wrote:I work as hard as I ever did for less, and less, and less.

The economy is stagnating here, and elsewhere I believe as well. Where I live there are 2 families that control 2 separate very large empires, including this province. Their slow siphoning, particularly one of them, has lead to a stagnant economy resulting in less work for less money. If we don't take back control and make them carry their weight, instead of the tax payers carrying them, we will all suffocate or starve. I will need to move if this keeps up. I am not joking mrswdk, I am serious.


Well don't put up with it then.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Bernie Sanders on Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:13 am

"You have given the wealthiest portion of the population a tax break, and now you are coming before the American people and saying we don't have enough money to protect the sick and the old."
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby notyou2 on Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:43 am

The measure of any society is how well it treats it's least fortunate.
Image
User avatar
Captain notyou2
 
Posts: 6447
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:09 am
Location: In the here and now

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby mrswdk on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:28 am

notyou2 wrote:The measure of any society is how well it treats it's least fortunate.


Do you measure that in metric or imperial in Canada?
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby Bernie Sanders on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:10 pm

"There is far too little discussion in Washington about the collapse of the middle class , almost no discussion at all about the incredible income inequality and wealth inequality in this country, and the fact that we're moving toward an oligarch form of society."
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Bernie Sanders
 
Posts: 5105
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:30 pm

Re: Are You Working Class/Middle Class and Feeling Overwhelm

Postby subtleknifewield on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:51 pm

mrswdk wrote:
notyou2 wrote:The measure of any society is how well it treats it's least fortunate.


Do you measure that in metric or imperial in Canada?

My guess is Imperial :V
Sergeant 1st Class subtleknifewield
 
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 6:42 pm

Next

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users