Fusion Reactions

[DoomYoshi]

The National Ignition Facility in the Bay area finally did it. They got more energy out a fusion reaction than they put in. No conquer clubbers were injured. All in all, a successful operation.

[jonesthecurl]

This was the first post I read after seeing this on the local news.
On the other hand, who'da thought chefs could solve the energy problem?

[Dukasaur]

Virtually unlimited clean energy. Pretty much the holy grail.

[DaGip]

Virtually unlimited clean energy. Pretty much the holy grail.

[jusplay4fun]

Virtually unlimited clean energy. Pretty much the holy grail.

There is still a long way to go, but this is a BIG step in the right direction. I have been reading about this as POSSIBLE for some 40 years, so we have come a long way.

The BIG PICTURE:

US Department of Energy officials announced Tuesday that US scientists for the first time successfully produced more energy from a nuclear fusion experiment than the laser energy used to power it.

It's a major step in a decadeslong attempt to source clean, limitless energy from nuclear fusion – the reaction that happens when two or more atoms are fused together.

US Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm called the historic achievement by a team at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s National Ignition Facility a “milestone” that moves the world closer to the possibility of a new source of clean energy.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/nuclear-fusion-reaction-us-announcement-12-13-22/index.html

Details, with some points EMPHASIZED:

What you need to know about today's nuclear fusion announcement — and what comes next

Scientists at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory’s National Ignition Facility have made history by successfully producing a nuclear fusion reaction resulting in a net energy gain, a breakthrough hailed by US officials as a “landmark achievement” and a “milestone for the future of clean energy.”

Here are key things to know about today's announcement — and possible next steps:

What is nuclear fusion and why does it matter? Nuclear fusion is a man-made process that replicates the same energy that powers the sun. Nuclear fusion happens when two or more atoms are fused into one larger one, a process that generates a massive amount of energy as heat.

Scientists around the world have been studying nuclear fusion for decades, hoping to recreate it with a new source that provides limitless, carbon-free energy – without the nuclear waste created by current nuclear reactors. Fusion projects mainly use the elements deuterium and tritium – both of which are isotopes of hydrogen.

The deuterium from a glass of water, with a little tritium added, could power a house for a year. Tritium is rarer and more challenging to obtain, although it can be synthetically made.

“Unlike coal, you only need a small amount of hydrogen, and it is the most abundant thing found in the universe,” Julio Friedmann, chief scientist at Carbon Direct and a former chief energy technologist at Lawrence Livermore, told CNN. “Hydrogen is found in water so the stuff that generates this energy is wildly unlimited and it is clean.”

Why was today's announcement significant? This is the first time scientists have ever successfully produced this, instead of breaking even as past experiments have done.

While there’s many more steps until this can be commercially viable, it’s essential for scientists to show that they can create more energy than they started with. Otherwise, it doesn’t make much sense for it to be developed.

“This is very important because from an energy perspective, it can’t be an energy source if you’re not getting out more energy than you’re putting in,” Friedmann told CNN. “Prior breakthroughs have been important but it’s not the same thing as generating energy that could one day be used on a larger scale.”

What are the next steps? Scientists and experts now need to figure out how to produce much more energy from nuclear fusion on a much larger scale.

At the same time, they need to figure out how to eventually reduce the cost of nuclear fusion so that it can be used commercially.

Scientists will also need harvest the energy produced by fusion and transfer it to the power grid as electricity. It will take years – and possibly decades – before fusion can be able to produce unlimited amounts of clean energy, and scientists are on a race against the clock to fight climate change.

I was teaching a Lesson on Isotopes and shared much of this information with my students very recently (in the past 4 weeks), except that I did not know how close we were to exceeding the break even point,
where energy OUT > energy IN.

Having FUSION as our major energy source will be a HUGE step for HUMANS (or mankind).

[jimboston]

Whoa, thank goodness JP4 stepped in and explained this!

I was about to shred my bill from National Grid, and put down some deposits for Tesla’s.

Now I know we still “have a long way to go”.

Thanks JP4!

[jusplay4fun]

Whoa, thank goodness JP4 stepped in and explained this!

I was about to shred my bill from National Grid, and put down some deposits for Tesla’s.

Now I know we still “have a long way to go”.

Thanks JP4!

You are welcome, jimb. I am glad I can help you.

[HitRed]

[jusplay4fun]

I read a biography on Oppenheimer and this action by the US Government is long overdue.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51YMmrzDg1L._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/American-Prometheus-Triumph-Tragedy-Oppenheimer/dp/0375726268/ref=asc_df_0375726268/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312090128763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4292530019446583511&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9008622&hvtargid=pla-435399110777&psc=1

and, to Clarify, Oppenheimer did NOT work on the Hydrogen of Fusion Bomb, due to these security concerns.

December 16, 2022 5:44 PM EST Last Updated 3 days ago
Biden admin says U.S. wrongly revoked Oppenheimer's security clearance in 1954

Dec 16 (Reuters) - The Biden administration on Friday reversed a 1954 decision by the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) to revoke the security clearance of Robert Oppenheimer, known as the "father of the atomic bomb" for his work on the Manhattan Project.

Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm said in a written order that the since-dissolved AEC acted out of political motives when it revoked Oppenheimer's security clearance nearly 70 years ago. Oppenheimer died in 1967.

"The Oppenheimer matter concerned a man who, not long before, had played an indispensable and singular role in the war effort, a man whose loyalty and love of country were never seriously questioned," Granholm said in the written order.

"More troubling, historical evidence suggests that the decision to review Dr. Oppenheimer’s clearance had less to do with a bona fide concern for the security of restricted data and more to do with a desire on the part of the political leadership of the AEC to discredit Dr. Oppenheimer in public debates over nuclear weapons policy," she said.

Oppenheimer, a theoretical physicist, headed the top secret Los Alamos Laboratory, which was established under President Franklin Roosevelt as home of the Manhattan Project to build the first atomic bomb during World War Two.

He oversaw the first atomic bomb detonation in the New Mexico desert, code-named "Trinity", before the weapons were used in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Following the war, Oppenheimer opposed nuclear proliferation and development of the hydrogen bomb, stances that Granholm suggested in her order led the AEC to revoke his security clearance.

and MORE, for those who want to learn and read:

J. Robert Oppenheimer[note 1] (/ˈɒpənˌhaɪmər/; April 22, 1904 – February 18, 1967) was an American theoretical physicist. A professor of physics at the University of California, Berkeley, Oppenheimer was the wartime head of the Los Alamos Laboratory and is often credited as the "father of the atomic bomb" for his role in the Manhattan Project – the World War II undertaking that developed the first nuclear weapons. Oppenheimer was among those who observed the Trinity test in New Mexico, where the first atomic bomb was successfully detonated on July 16, 1945. He later remarked that the explosion brought to mind words from the Bhagavad Gita: "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."[2][note 2] In August 1945, the weapons were used in the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

After the war ended, Oppenheimer became chairman of the influential General Advisory Committee of the newly created United States Atomic Energy Commission. He used that position to lobby for international control of nuclear power to avert nuclear proliferation and a nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union. He opposed the development of the hydrogen bomb during a 1949–1950 governmental debate on the question and subsequently took stances on defense-related issues that provoked the ire of some factions in the U.S. government and military. During the Second Red Scare, those stances, together with past associations Oppenheimer had with people and organizations affiliated with the Communist Party, led to him suffering the revocation of his security clearance in a much-written-about hearing in 1954. Effectively stripped of his direct political influence, he continued to lecture, write, and work in physics. Nine years later, President John F. Kennedy awarded (and Lyndon B. Johnson presented) him with the Enrico Fermi Award as a gesture of political rehabilitation.

Oppenheimer's achievements in physics included the Born–Oppenheimer approximation for molecular wave functions, work on the theory of electrons and positrons, the Oppenheimer–Phillips process in nuclear fusion, and the first prediction of quantum tunneling. With his students he also made important contributions to the modern theory of neutron stars and black holes, as well as to quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and the interactions of cosmic rays. As a teacher and promoter of science, he is remembered as a founding father of the American school of theoretical physics that gained world prominence in the 1930s. After World War II, he became director of the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey.

On December 16, 2022, United States Secretary of Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm cleared Oppenheimer of allegations that led to the 1954 revocation of his security clearance, citing as the reason a "flawed investigation" of his background by the United States Atomic Energy Commission in the early 1950s.[7][8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer

[Maxleod]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

[jusplay4fun]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

Let me try to answer your question, MaxL; let me know if you still have questions. I will take you off my FOE list, for this discussion.

Cold fusion was never validated by follow-up experiments. The news of it was released in a Press Conference (highly unusual and highly suspect, btw) by two US professors, one in Utah, as I recall, in or around 1989. (One prof. was Pons, as I recall. Pons and Fleischer or Fleishman or some such name, too long ago to be sure.) As I understand fusion, this is HIGHLY improbable. The energy input of cold fusion is not enough to cause to atoms to get that close to cause their nuclei (centers) to fuse or join. Basically, 2 hydrogen atoms make one helium atom as the hydrogen atoms are "FORCED" together. The number of protons and neutrons involved is important, but I will skip that detail.

Fusion is forcing two atoms of a light element, such as hydrogen, AND takes MILLIONS of degrees of heat and enormous gas pressure (the kind of pressure such as in a car tire or inflatable ball, BUT MUCH MUCH higher). The place where such temperature and pressure occurs are in the Core of stars and now in man-made nuclear hydrogen bombs, detonated by an Atomic Fission bomb using uranium or plutonium (at # 92 and 94). The controlled release of energy release by fusion is caused ("detonated" or started) by lasers, as was done in the information posted above. The other main attempt is by use of a magnetic "container" or "bottle" shaped essentially like a large donut. This device is called by the Russian word tokamak. We cannot use matter to contain the hydrogen as it would melt or be destroyed by the high temp and pressure needed. In a laser, that detonation is a very short amount of time and occurs at the central target of several lasers.

As noted earlier, control of the heat to capture it and to do this on a much larger scale are two of the first engineering obstacles to overcome.

For now, deuterium is used as it contains one proton and one neutron in its nucleus; it is a form or isotope of hydrogen, making up about 0.015% of naturally occurring hydrogen, 99.985% is protium, having only one proton in its nucleus.

Fusion is what powers the sun and all stars and release heat and light into the universe; again 2 hydrogen makes one helium atom. (Side note, in a red giant star, helium and a few other light elements, such as lithium, is fused to make carbon, atomic # = 6. If you want specifics, I have to look that up as to the specific reaction.)

[jonesthecurl]

https://music.apple.com/us/album/h-to-he-who-am-the-only-one-deluxe/1581964238

[Dukasaur]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

Cold fusion was discredited long ago, correct. It was basically a combination of wishful thinking and experimental error that led Fleishmann and Pons to believe they succeeded in creating cold fusion.

The National Ignition experiments of this year are NOT attempting to create cold fusion. They are creating regular fusion, regular hot fusion.

I'm trying to keep this brief, but there's a limit to how brief it can be, so please bear with me.

Hydrogen fusion is what drives main-sequence stars like our sun. It is also what powers a hydrogen bomb. It is a very hot, very energetic process. In the process, mass is lost (converted to energy) so it takes full advantage of Einstein's famous E=MC^2 theorem. It's not a perpetual-motion machine, but the amount of mass lost is incredibly small so for practical purposes it's unlimited energy.

The trouble is that the process only occurs at extreme pressures. In the Sun, these extreme pressures are generated by the gravitational pressure of the Sun itself. Fusion only occurs deep down inside the Sun, where the outer layers of the Sun are generating pressures of 2.65 megabars (in other words 2.65 million more times pressure than our atmosphere). In a hydrogen bomb, we generate extreme pressures by detonating a regular atomic bomb as the trigger.

Obviously, neither one of these is a practical solution for power generation. We can't immerse ourselves in a stellar core or set off atomic bombs every time we need to turn on the bathroom light. So how do we generate the extreme pressures needed for fusion without blowing ourselves up?

Quite a few methods have been tried, but for the last 25 years or so the only serious attempts have been made using lasers focused on tiny pellets of frozen hydrogen. The shock wave of the photon front from the lasers briefly compresses the hydrogen (well deuterium, really, but I'm trying to simplify this as much as possible) to the point that it fuses. We're talking very big lasers focused on a very small pellet. Extremely large and powerful banks of lasers are needed and they use a hell of a lot of electricity. Energy comes from the resulting fusion, but it's not enough to power the lasers. Or, at least, until this year it wasn't enough. That's the nature of the breakthrough that took place at National Ignition labs. They finally got lasers phased efficiently enough that they used less electricity to power the lasers than what the resulting fusion gave off.

So, yes you're right, a process cannot give back more energy than it consumes. It's actually consuming the mass of the neutrons in the deuterium. The breakthrough that was made was not about the reaction itself, but about the lasers used to trigger it. That's the key, that they triggered a reaction without using more laser power than what they produced.

Obviously I've oversimplified this a lot, but even so it's fairly lengthy, so the writers of news headlines can be forgiven for not being able to compress all this into a headline.

[jusplay4fun]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

Cold fusion was discredited long ago, correct. It was basically a combination of wishful thinking and experimental error that led Fleishmann and Pons to believe they succeeded in creating cold fusion.

The National Ignition experiments of this year are NOT attempting to create cold fusion. They are creating regular fusion, regular hot fusion.

I'm trying to keep this brief, but there's a limit to how brief it can be, so please bear with me.

Hydrogen fusion is what drives main-sequence stars like our sun. It is also what powers a hydrogen bomb. It is a very hot, very energetic process. In the process, mass is lost (converted to energy) so it takes full advantage of Einstein's famous E=MC^2 theorem. It's not a perpetual-motion machine, but the amount of mass lost is incredibly small so for practical purposes it's unlimited energy.

The trouble is that the process only occurs at extreme pressures. In the Sun, these extreme pressures are generated by the gravitational pressure of the Sun itself. Fusion only occurs deep down inside the Sun, where the outer layers of the Sun are generating pressures of 2.65 megabars (in other words 2.65 million more times pressure than our atmosphere). In a hydrogen bomb, we generate extreme pressures by detonating a regular atomic bomb as the trigger.

Obviously, neither one of these is a practical solution for power generation. We can't immerse ourselves in a stellar core or set off atomic bombs every time we need to turn on the bathroom light. So how do we generate the extreme pressures needed for fusion without blowing ourselves up?

Quite a few methods have been tried, but for the last 25 years or so the only serious attempts have been made using lasers focused on tiny pellets of frozen hydrogen. The shock wave of the photon front from the lasers briefly compresses the hydrogen (well deuterium, really, but I'm trying to simplify this as much as possible) to the point that it fuses. We're talking very big lasers focused on a very small pellet. Extremely large and powerful banks of lasers are needed and they use a hell of a lot of electricity. Energy comes from the resulting fusion, but it's not enough to power the lasers. Or, at least, until this year it wasn't enough. That's the nature of the breakthrough that took place at National Ignition labs. They finally got lasers phased efficiently enough that they used less electricity to power the lasers than what the resulting fusion gave off.

So, yes you're right, a process cannot give back more energy than it consumes. It's actually consuming the mass of the neutrons in the deuterium. The breakthrough that was made was not about the reaction itself, but about the lasers used to trigger it. That's the key, that they triggered a reaction without using more laser power than what they produced.

Obviously I've oversimplified this a lot, but even so it's fairly lengthy, so the writers of news headlines can be forgiven for not being able to compress all this into a headline.

Yes, I agree with what Duk posted. He offered a few different points, but he and I are basically saying much of the same thing, trying to keep this matter relatively simple.

[KoolBak]

Thank you DoD...that was interesting. And so much more insightful / less painful than anything JP could draft

Related? Probably not, but the most interesting power generation thing I've SEEN was a giant disco ball on a stick heated by acres of mirrors on the ground reflecting sunlight onto it to produce steam to power turbines to generate electricity. Down by Vegas. Damn thing was bizarre and could be seen for miles. Obviously only works half the day...heat / process kept active the other half with gas as apparently restarting it was ineffective. Libs didn't like it as it fries birds and creates it's own bizarre microclimate.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rGc9ShB66rX2LRAx7

[jimboston]

Max you just made JP4’s decade… validating his overly high self-opinion.

Now you’re “unfoed” how special.

[jusplay4fun]

Max you just made JP4’s decade… validating his overly high self-opinion.

Now you’re “unfoed” how special.

Do you actually have anything of value to add to this scientific discussion, jimbo?

And no, this is not the first time I have been asked to explain science to others. So my ego is not inflated by ONE question. I am sure you would have reacted with a swollen head over such a matter if anyone EVER asked for your enlightened answers.

[jimboston]

Max you just made JP4’s decade… validating his overly high self-opinion.

Now you’re “unfoed” how special.

Do you actually have anything of value to add to this scientific discussion, jimbo?

No… you copied the answer from Wiki well enough… with enough editorial to make it boring.

And no, this is not the first time I have been asked to explain science to others. So my ego is not inflated by ONE question.

Inflated enough that you “magnanimously” offer to unfoe him.

Seems like the question affected you in some way. No?

[jusplay4fun]

Duk and I have talked about the three isotopes of hydrogen: protium (or H-1), deuterium (H-2), and tritium (H-3). A fusion reaction involving deuterium and tritium

provides many advantages over other types of fusion, as it has a relatively low minimum temperature of 100 million degrees C.

If this is relatively low temperature, this explains:

1) why so much energy is needed from lasers on in a tokamak;

2) why cold fusion is so unrealistic. I think Duk explained that issue well.

Deuterium is relatively abundant and tritium can be relatively easily made.

https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsdeuterium-tritium-fusion-reactor-fuel#:~:text=When%20deuterium%20and%20tritium%20fuse,%2C%20businesses%2C%20and%20other%20needs.

this has a good diagram:
https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsdeuterium-tritium-fusion-reactor-fuel

[mookiemcgee]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

Cold fusion was discredited long ago, correct. It was basically a combination of wishful thinking and experimental error that led Fleishmann and Pons to believe they succeeded in creating cold fusion.

The National Ignition experiments of this year are NOT attempting to create cold fusion. They are creating regular fusion, regular hot fusion.

I'm trying to keep this brief, but there's a limit to how brief it can be, so please bear with me.

Hydrogen fusion is what drives main-sequence stars like our sun. It is also what powers a hydrogen bomb. It is a very hot, very energetic process. In the process, mass is lost (converted to energy) so it takes full advantage of Einstein's famous E=MC^2 theorem. It's not a perpetual-motion machine, but the amount of mass lost is incredibly small so for practical purposes it's unlimited energy.

The trouble is that the process only occurs at extreme pressures. In the Sun, these extreme pressures are generated by the gravitational pressure of the Sun itself. Fusion only occurs deep down inside the Sun, where the outer layers of the Sun are generating pressures of 2.65 megabars (in other words 2.65 million more times pressure than our atmosphere). In a hydrogen bomb, we generate extreme pressures by detonating a regular atomic bomb as the trigger.

Obviously, neither one of these is a practical solution for power generation. We can't immerse ourselves in a stellar core or set off atomic bombs every time we need to turn on the bathroom light. So how do we generate the extreme pressures needed for fusion without blowing ourselves up?

Quite a few methods have been tried, but for the last 25 years or so the only serious attempts have been made using lasers focused on tiny pellets of frozen hydrogen. The shock wave of the photon front from the lasers briefly compresses the hydrogen (well deuterium, really, but I'm trying to simplify this as much as possible) to the point that it fuses. We're talking very big lasers focused on a very small pellet. Extremely large and powerful banks of lasers are needed and they use a hell of a lot of electricity. Energy comes from the resulting fusion, but it's not enough to power the lasers. Or, at least, until this year it wasn't enough. That's the nature of the breakthrough that took place at National Ignition labs. They finally got lasers phased efficiently enough that they used less electricity to power the lasers than what the resulting fusion gave off.

So, yes you're right, a process cannot give back more energy than it consumes. It's actually consuming the mass of the neutrons in the deuterium. The breakthrough that was made was not about the reaction itself, but about the lasers used to trigger it. That's the key, that they triggered a reaction without using more laser power than what they produced.

Obviously I've oversimplified this a lot, but even so it's fairly lengthy, so the writers of news headlines can be forgiven for not being able to compress all this into a headline.

Now if they can just get the final piece with the sharks done, we'd be in business.

[jimboston]

Now if they can just get the final piece with the sharks done, we'd be in business.

It’s happened…



https://www.wired.com/2012/05/wicked-lasers-shark/

[jusplay4fun]

[jusplay4fun]

JP I have a question, I know that "cold fusion" or whatever this thing is was theorized decades ago, but I thought an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion. I mean, not virtually impossible, in practice, but really impossible, because it would violate the laws of physics. A bit like in mathematics no function can "reach" ∞, by definition. Could you explain it to a simpleton like me, with simple words?


JP foed me, can someone please quote this post so that he can see it?

an engine/machine/device that produces more energy than it consumes was impossible, like perpetual motion.

And you are correct on both points, MaxL. Such a device is IMPOSSIBLE as it would violate the Laws of Science (Specifically, the Laws of Thermodynamics).

A fusion reactor does not violate those laws as a tiny amount of matter is converted into energy, given by the equation e = mc2

Duk already explained that well already; I was avoiding the math.

What is nuclear fusion exactly?
Our current nuclear power stations use nuclear fission – essentially splitting an atom’s nucleus.

Nuclear fusion is what happens in the Sun and other stars and involves joining two atomic nuclei to make one larger one. Both reactions release large amounts of energy, but with nuclear fusion there is very high energy yield and very low nuclear waste production.

Fusion occurs when two light atoms bond together, or fuse, to make a heavier one. The total mass of the new atom is less than that of the two that formed it; the "missing" mass is given off as energy, as described by Albert Einstein's famous E=mc2 equation.

[HitRed]

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/porsche-re ... -air-water