For atheists: is killing animals ok?

[thegreekdog]

TGD, would you like a hug?

If you're giving out presents, I would really like self-control with respect to being able to not read religious threads.

[BigBallinStalin]

Ever heard of S&M?

And, good luck "talking" to the animals. Still not seeing my logical inconsistency here. You settled for pain and pleasure, which you can't measure nor compare, and you're stuck with that problem which won't advance you to your conclusion (help teh animals in X-amount of ways). It's a faulty ethical system ya got there.

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Until then, you'll be lacking the foundation to insist that others follow your ethical system.

Good luck divining the interests of all living creatures. I'm sure you won't stop yourself from saying what you want the animals to say. Since you can't control for that, then your ethical system is suspect. It's founded upon: "because I said so."

A moment's thought at all about how we construct ethical systems shows that we do this all the time. If we were to follow your denialism to its logical conclusion, we would be forced to conclude that infants, people in comas, etc., have no rights, because they can't communicate, so we can't really know what they want. Unless you are ready to seriously advocate for an ethical system that makes it ok to torture a one-year-old because he doesn't know how to say no, then this argument has no basis. We know that babies feel pain not because we talk to them, or because we remember what it's like to be that young (we don't), but because we understand basic anatomy. The same is true for animals, regardless of whether they are self-aware.

Insert concepts of guardianship, ability to exchange, contract law, etc. Problem resolved. Animals lack such capabilities, but that won't stop you from believing otherwise. Contention denied. The ball's in your court again.

The rest which you failed to address shall be known as Failure on your part.

I think your problem is that you strive for some absolute system--i.e. some universal system of rules, but you've yet to realize that such a system cannot exist. Systems which are vague, abide to various spectra, are context-specific cannot fit with the imagined universal/absolute systems.

[BigBallinStalin]

TGD, would you like a hug?

If you're giving out presents, I would really like self-control with respect to being able to not read religious threads.

Present granted!