100,000 Christians are murdered for their faith each year

[mrswdk]

crusade: a vigorous campaign for political, social or religious change

So there we go. A crusade is not necessarily a religious war.

It's funny how you whine about BBS being a troll, and yet your response to this thread has 'troll' written all over it. Make your mind up. You can't have your cake and eat it.

[Symmetry]

crusade: a vigorous campaign for political, social or religious change

So there we go. A crusade is not necessarily a religious war.

It's funny how you whine about BBS being a troll, and yet your response to this thread has 'troll' written all over it. Make your mind up. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I have no idea who you're talking to or quoting with this. Would it be trolling to ask you to clarify?

[mrswdk]

I'm quoting a dictionary, which I would have thought is fairly obvious.

I'm talking to you, the guy who is repeatedly using George Bush's one-time use of the word 'crusade' to claim that he launched a religious war.

[Symmetry]

I'm quoting a dictionary, which I would have thought is fairly obvious.

I'm talking to you, the guy who is repeatedly using George Bush's one-time use of the word 'crusade' to claim that he launched a religious war.

You're quoting a dictionary, I'm quoting the President of the US declaring that the war is a crusade. When it comes to whether or not the war was declared to be a crusade, my evidence trumps yours.

Still, thanks for the reply.

[Metsfanmax]

Folks, this entire debate is asinine. I almost think you're debating about the meaning of the word crusade rather than actually discussing the specifics of a particular war.

[Symmetry]

Folks, this entire debate is asinine. I almost think you're debating about the meaning of the word crusade rather than actually discussing the specifics of a particular war.

I'm kind of baffled too. It was declared as a crusade to the world, and the quibbles seem to be about definitions of the term.

[AAFitz]

Drunk drivers have been murdering Christians
in America for decades, but they don't actually
discriminate.

18,000,000 Russian fatalities in WWII, with more
than half of those being civilians. Bet there are
some Christians in there to boost the BBC stats.

I actually think 18 mill is low, possibly by as much as 10 mil, though wiki, for better or worse shows an estimate of 22mil to 30mil. The number I remember is 28 million.

[mrswdk]

So lame, Sym.. You made this declaration:

Or to use a more realistic example, when the U.S. announced that there was a holy war against non-Christians, would that count?

based on one use of the word 'crusade'. Do you maintain this assertion, in light of it being made evident to you that 'crusade' does not always mean 'holy war'?

[Symmetry]

So lame, Sym..

Or to use a more realistic example, when the U.S. announced that there was a holy war against non-Christians, would that count?

You declared it to be a 'holy war', based on one use of the word 'crusade'. Do you maintain your assertion that it was a holy war?

I maintain that that was declared. You have yourself argued that when that term was used, it was religious. Where do you stand? I'm a little unsure as to whether I should turn your own definitions against you, or try a different tack.

You are clearly wrong in either case though, so let me know which method of showing how wrong you are would be preferable to you.

[mrswdk]

I have myself argued that when George Bush used the term 'crusade' it was non-religious.

Seeing as Symmetry is now using outright lies to further a case that he is obviously only making to derail my thread I think we can dismiss his input and return to the original point: that Christians and Jews are the only religious followers who are not routinely slaughterly followers of other religions.

[Symmetry]

I have myself argued that when George Bush used the term 'crusade' it was non-religious.

Seeing as Symmetry is now using outright lies to further a case that he is obviously only making to derail my thread I think we can dismiss his input and return to the original point: that Christians and Jews are the only religious followers who are not routinely slaughterly followers of other religions.

You know that I can read this, right? Who are you talking to?

Don't go playground/schoolyard on me now. "We're not talking to him now" got kinda dull after I was 8.

[2dimes]

That is what I was told about communist Russians.

the 18m Russians who died were killed by communists?The Nazis weren't responsible for any of them?

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

[Symmetry]

That is what I was told about communist Russians.

the 18m Russians who died were killed by communists?The Nazis weren't responsible for any of them?

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

I was unaware too, can you provide evidence?

In 1933, prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the Christian population of Germany was around 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic.[1] A German census in May 1939, completed more than six years into the Nazi era[2] and incorporating the annexation of mostly Catholic Austria into Germany, indicates that 54% of Germans considered themselves Protestant, (including non-denominational Christians) and 40% considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5% claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5 % non-Christians, or "non-believers". Most of this latter 5% were committed Nazis, who had left the churches in response to the encouragement of the Nazi Party, which wanted to reduce the influence of Christianity in Germany. Most members of the Nazi Party, however, were Christians, either Catholic or Evangelical.

Religion in Nazi Germany

[2dimes]

If I do I'm not about to share.

Persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany followed the Nazi takeover

Oh noes, Christians killin Christians. Totes don't count!

[chang50]

That is what I was told about communist Russians.

the 18m Russians who died were killed by communists?The Nazis weren't responsible for any of them?

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

You don't seem aware that Fascism and Catholicism were deeply intertwined in 1930's and 40's Europe.There was a neo-pagan element amongst some Nazis,Himmler for one,but I've never heard this theory advanced before.In fact the Nazis if anything hated the Bolsheviks so much that anything related to it in the culture of the time such as atheism was hated as well.

[Symmetry]

That is what I was told about communist Russians.

the 18m Russians who died were killed by communists?The Nazis weren't responsible for any of them?

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

You don't seem aware that Fascism and Catholicism were deeply intertwined in 1930's and 40's Europe.There was a neo-pagan element amongst some Nazis,Himmler for one,but I've never heard this theory advanced before.In fact the Nazis if anything hated the Bolsheviks so much that anything related to it in the culture of the time such as atheism was hated as well.

And to underline my point made earlier, most Nazis were Protestants.

[chang50]

That is what I was told about communist Russians.

the 18m Russians who died were killed by communists?The Nazis weren't responsible for any of them?

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

You don't seem aware that Fascism and Catholicism were deeply intertwined in 1930's and 40's Europe.There was a neo-pagan element amongst some Nazis,Himmler for one,but I've never heard this theory advanced before.In fact the Nazis if anything hated the Bolsheviks so much that anything related to it in the culture of the time such as atheism was hated as well.

And to underline my point made earlier, most Nazis were Protestants.

Agreed..It is interesting to note Hitler was never excommunicated from the Catholic church in his lifetime although some of his fellow Germans were for crimes such as marrying Protestants.Far worse than the genocide ofthe Jews..

[saxitoxin]

You don't seem aware that most of the nazis were fascist atheists. Any I have known certainly were. 2 I think but only 1 absolutely for sure in case you're planning to ask how many.

2dimes is correct; atheists or creative pagans - fascism is a traditionalist worldview and Christianity is an anti-traditionalist religion; the two are totally incompatible* ... if GreecePWNS is here I think he could note that the current Golden Dawn party in Greece used to espouse a pagan outlook until they had to switch to run-of-the-mill Christianity to mainstream themselves ... that rank-and-file party members were Christians, or that there was never suppression of Christianity in Germany, was because the party intelligentsia had to respond to functional political realities (anti-Hitler faction Nazis like the Strasser brothers didn't have to deal with these realities and you can see a purer form of Nazi theology in their writings)

This is clearer in Italy; the Quadrumviri, obviously, were overt atheists, but even lower-level members of the Grand Council of Fascism like Ed Russoni who published extensive denouncements of the church when living in New York before returning to Italy for the March on Rome.

* In the proto-fascist "Crisis of the Modern World," Abd al-Wahid Yahya noted that Christianity was a clap-trap religion and the west must strive to identify, in its history, a traditional religion like the east had in Hinduism. He believed Suffism was this religion, though that was eventually debatable, but CMW is still a cornerstone text in fascist thought.

edit - splg

[saxitoxin]

There was a Columbia University professor, Herbert Schneider, who spent 6 years in Italy observing the fascist state at work and wrote the only first-person observations recorded in English of it. If you can find a copy of his long out-of-print The Fascist Government of Italy (1935) I recommend it as it presents a starkly different perspective than more contemporary texts. Anyway, in there on page 17 he notes:

For the first time in Italian history church and state are practically separated. Cavour's ideal of a "free church in a free state" inspired by French anti-clericalism, proved impossible. And yet, in a sense, it is realized now; for though neither church nor state is politically free, both are free of each other and religion is less political in power than it has ever been.

[Symmetry]

There was a Columbia University professor, Herbert Schneider, who spent 6 years in Italy observing the fascist state at work and wrote the only first-person observations recorded in English of it. If you can find a copy of his long out-of-print The Fascist Government of Italy (1935) I recommend it as it presents a starkly different perspective than more contemporary texts. Anyway, in there on page 17 he notes:

For the first time in Italian history church and state are practically separated. Cavour's ideal of a "free church in a free state" inspired by French anti-clericalism, proved impossible. And yet, in a sense, it is realized now; for though neither church nor state is politically free, both are free of each other and religion is less political in power than it has ever been.

It should be out of copyright, so here's a link:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015013016749;view=1up;seq=13

This is not a book about fascism

That one, right?

[saxitoxin]

There was a Columbia University professor, Herbert Schneider, who spent 6 years in Italy observing the fascist state at work and wrote the only first-person observations recorded in English of it. If you can find a copy of his long out-of-print The Fascist Government of Italy (1935) I recommend it as it presents a starkly different perspective than more contemporary texts. Anyway, in there on page 17 he notes:

For the first time in Italian history church and state are practically separated. Cavour's ideal of a "free church in a free state" inspired by French anti-clericalism, proved impossible. And yet, in a sense, it is realized now; for though neither church nor state is politically free, both are free of each other and religion is less political in power than it has ever been.

It should be out of copyright, so here's a link:
http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015013016749;view=1up;seq=13

perfetto - grazie!

This is not a book about fascism nor about Italy; it is confined to the description of how fascism is working in Italy at the moment.

That one, right?

correct

[Symmetry]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes- I gave you the entire book there.

[BigBallinStalin]

If a sentence has more than 10 words, can Sym not recall it?

[saxitoxin]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes

Prof. Schneider?

[Symmetry]

You really don't need to mess around with my quotes

Prof. Schneider?

Meh, I've been called worse.