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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:49 pm

Dukasaur wrote:So the Ukrainians got an offer from Europe, and the Russians thought (correctly) that it might reduce their stranglehold on their little captive market. Unfortunately, in the short term Russia has more to offer, although wiser Ukrainians know that any Russian benevolence is very short-lived, whereas Europe actually honours its treaties.

So that is the basic conflict. Stupid Ukrainians with no sense of history are attracted by what Russia can give them now, blind to the fact that the goodies will be taken away once the current crisis is over. Wiser Ukrainians who can read know that Europe is the long term salvation, although it's not as attractive in the short term. And yeah, the 1% are the tip of the iceberg. The 60% who smile and wave when the 1% walk by are the real story.

And yeah, talk about what is democratic or undemocratic is a smoke screen regardless of which side does it. They both know that democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself.


Can you expand into greater detail? Which groups are pro-Russia? Which are pro-US and/or pro-EU? Which subgroups of the protesters are supporting x, y, or z?
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:56 pm

According to Reuters:
"The events witnessed by our country and the whole world are an example of a coup d'etat," he (Yanukovich) said, comparing it to the rise of the Nazis to power in Germany in the 1930s.

So, according to Yanukovich, this is a democratic election, caused by Woodrow Wilson.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby patches70 on Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:57 pm

For those who think the protests in the Ukraine are some sort of democratic something (it's not), or about freedom (it won't be, just exchanging one whip master for another, at best), a simple thought experiment would be good to perform.

What if, the Tea Party organized a few thousand people and took over The Mall. They clash with police, burn down the DNC, occupy the Capitol building and demand that Obamacare be immediately repealed and/or Obama immediately resign. Say this movement is using as it's figurehead what's his name, Boehner (LOL) or some other Republican or opposition party.

Would all of you have the same reaction, as in "Good on you Tea Party!"

Further more, have the Russian Sec of State talking with the Russian ambassador to the US via unsecured cell phone talking about who is going to replace Obama.

Would Obama stand for such a thing? Would he "respect the protesters" and step down? Would the American people stand for such a thing?

What would Obama do in such a situation? What should he do?

Roughly half of the country want's Obama out of office.

Such a thing happening in the US is unlikely at this moment because frankly the average US citizen has a lot more to lose than the average Ukrainian. Subjectively speaking I suppose. The costs for the Americans would be much greater than the costs to the Ukraine's citizens in their revolution. But that's BBS' alley.

Obama, or any Republican/Democrat President would smash such an uprising in the US if the other party tried this shit, in a heartbeat. And roughly half the nation would be for or sympathetic to the uprising while the other half would be opposed to downright hostile to such an uprising.
And we would insist beyond all doubt that everyone else in the world stay the hell out of such a mess if we were to go through such a thing.

And we would use the same tactics as well, the cartoonish nature of the current Ukraine President (is he still the President?) would be applied to Obama. An evil dictator completely unbending. The protesters would be labeled terrorists and bombed and/or imprisoned.
Yet, Yanukovych offered to negotiate with the protesters. He fired the PM and offered the job to Arseniy Yatsenyuk (leader of the opposition party), and offered Vitali Klitschko (leader of yet another opposition party) the Deputy Prime Minister job.
Furthermore, Yanukovych had the laws against the protests repealed, gave amnesty to everyone who had been arrested during the protests.
He offered peace and a coalition government until the next elections. The opposition didn't want to share power, they want all the power, now.
Does that sound like an unyielding tyrant?

Hell, why take a chance that your claim on power will be unredeemed come election time when you can just seize power now by force?

It's a lot more complex than the Putin vs the Ukraine Freedom Fighters. At the real heart of the matter was a deal made, a choice between two deals.
Russia offered $15 billion in loans and cut rate oil and gas prices for Ukraine.
The EU offered tiny loans and credit, demanded reforms in the Ukraine economy and insisted on IMF monitoring of the Ukraine (one doesn't want the IMF looking over their shoulder, but that's another subject entirely) and even after all that there was still no guarantee that the Ukraine would be allowed EU membership.

Which deal should have Yanukovych gone with?
It's clear what deal the US and the EU wanted Ukraine to go with, but which was actually better for Ukraine?


So end of the day, this is Ukraine's crisis and it's not a damn thing to do with the US. But it's funny how it's always portrayed as "Democracy! Freedom!" and all that other nonsense. Hell, even the title of this topic is messed up, it was a long time ago but the original protests in Egypt weren't about getting rid of a tyrant or freedom, it was all started over food riots. But we forget these little details in favor of the other narrative that always driven by people with specific agendas. And those agendas rarely have anything to do with freedom or democracy but almost always involve who has the power.

We can all be fairly certain of a couple of things,
The opposition certainly declined all offers of coalition governments and peaceful ends to the protests.
The government of Ukraine caved on lots of the protesters demands.

Someone wanted it to get violent, so who was it that turned it all violent and was it worth it?

Time will tell I suppose.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby GoranZ on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:00 pm

Dukasaur wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:To give you some context, I'm mostly responding against the following position and its similar forms: "the Ukrainian people are stirred to promote democracy for the sake of promoting democracy."

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there, horsie!

That certainly has never been my position. I'm sure the average Ukrainian doesn't give two shits about "democracy" as an abstract ideal. It's just a means to an end, and the end is ending exploitation by Russian overlords.

For a thousand years Russian masters have treated the Ukraine as a farm where cheap slaves are bred, to be conscripted into wars when required and sent home without a pension when not. Or a farm where cheap whores can be bred, to be handed out as party favours to ugly apparatchiks. Or a farm where cheap wheat is grown to feed hungry Russians. Or a farm where Russian iron ore is turned into high-quality steel at bargain-basement prices, by hungry Ukrainian slavesworkers who are happy to make a quarter of what the workers make in the same steel mill on the Russian side of the border.

Grand Dukes, Tsars, Mensheviks, Bolsheviks, perestroikists or whatever the new regime calls itself, it's all the same shit. Russia is the bully of the local schoolyard, and she'll punch you in the nose if you don't turn over your lunch money. That hasn't changed in over a thousand years.

After the disbandment of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine theoretically became independent, but the Russian overlords could bide their time. It's much like the Old South after the American civil war. The landowners knew it was only a matter of time before the slaves would have to come back and become slaves again, only that they would no longer be slaves under the law but still bound to their old masters through more clever stratagems like share-cropping and mortgages and stuff. The Russian overlords still knew that the biggest market for Ukrainian goods would be Russia, and that just a few key mercantilist interventions would be sufficient to send the Ukrainian economy into a tailspin whenever it suited them.

The only question would be which interventions would actually benefit the Russian overlords. (And despite bullshit propaganda about a free market, nobody has any pull in the Russian economy unless they're either a former KGB agent or sucking a former KGB agent's dick.)

So the Ukrainians got an offer from Europe, and the Russians thought (correctly) that it might reduce their stranglehold on their little captive market. Unfortunately, in the short term Russia has more to offer, although wiser Ukrainians know that any Russian benevolence is very short-lived, whereas Europe actually honours its treaties.

So that is the basic conflict. Stupid Ukrainians with no sense of history are attracted by what Russia can give them now, blind to the fact that the goodies will be taken away once the current crisis is over. Wiser Ukrainians who can read know that Europe is the long term salvation, although it's not as attractive in the short term. And yeah, the 1% are the tip of the iceberg. The 60% who smile and wave when the 1% walk by are the real story.

And yeah, talk about what is democratic or undemocratic is a smoke screen regardless of which side does it. They both know that democracy is a means to an end, not an end in itself.


Ukrainian GDP per capita in 1992(1 year after independence*) was $5150, while Russian was $7859. 22 years later Ukrainian is $7500 while Russian is $18000. Seems to me that "unexploited" Ukraine didn't do a lot when it comes to economic growth... I wonder what it would have been if they were exploited!
Ukraine GDP - per capita (PPP)
Russia GDP - per capita (PPP)
*I couldn't find data from Soviet Union so I used after the independence of Ukraine and Russia.


If what you are saying is true then how did Ukraine expanded its territory by ~20% mainly thanks to Russia/Soviet Union?
Image


Dukasaur it seems to me that what you posted is pile of western media garbage... Especially the part of EU keeping their word or honoring justice.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:10 pm

patches70 wrote:For those who think the protests in the Ukraine are some sort of democratic something (it's not), or about freedom (it won't be, just exchanging one whip master for another, at best), a simple thought experiment would be good to perform.

What if, the Tea Party organized a few thousand people and took over The Mall. They clash with police, burn down the DNC, occupy the Capitol building and demand that Obamacare be immediately repealed and/or Obama immediately resign. Say this movement is using as it's figurehead what's his name, Boehner (LOL) or some other Republican or opposition party.

Would all of you have the same reaction, as in "Good on you Tea Party!"

Further more, have the Russian Sec of State talking with the Russian ambassador to the US via unsecured cell phone talking about who is going to replace Obama.

Would Obama stand for such a thing? Would he "respect the protesters" and step down? Would the American people stand for such a thing?

What would Obama do in such a situation? What should he do?

Roughly half of the country want's Obama out of office.

Such a thing happening in the US is unlikely at this moment because frankly the average US citizen has a lot more to lose than the average Ukrainian. Subjectively speaking I suppose. The costs for the Americans would be much greater than the costs to the Ukraine's citizens in their revolution. But that's BBS' alley.

Obama, or any Republican/Democrat President would smash such an uprising in the US if the other party tried this shit, in a heartbeat. And roughly half the nation would be for or sympathetic to the uprising while the other half would be opposed to downright hostile to such an uprising.
And we would insist beyond all doubt that everyone else in the world stay the hell out of such a mess if we were to go through such a thing.


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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:51 pm

Patches, are you trying to argue that the Ukraine should be like the US in every conceivable way or else there is a grave injustice?

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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:56 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Patches, are you trying to argue that the Ukraine should be like the US in every conceivable way or else there is a grave injustice?


lolwut

here's what this attempt looked like from the sidelines
Image
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:04 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Patches, are you trying to argue that the Ukraine should be like the US in every conceivable way or else there is a grave injustice?


lolwut


Why should we expect that the way riots are dealt with in Ukraine is the same way they should be dealt with in the States? By what right does patches feign indignation at the fact that issues are dealt with differently in different places? By no right - he's just setting up false standards so he can tear them down.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:08 pm

You can't arbitrarily state that riots should be dealt with the same way without also saying that everything should be dealt with the same way. Including but not limited to, how they deal with Mexicans leaching over the borders, New Hampshire trying to succeed and Bank of America debit machines charging $4 per transaction. Until all these things are equal, patches' conscience can not rest. Unless of course it is an internally inconsistent and irrational system.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:09 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:By what right does patches feign indignation at the fact that issues are dealt with differently in different places?


They're not. Patches laid-out a scenario that would be replicated in any country in the world. Only in countries undergoing one of these pretend revolutions is the elected government supposed to turn over power to whomever can get less than 1% of the electorate to gather in one place for a few days and scream loudly. This was also pointed out by the exiled American dissident Diana Johnstone in the Counterpunch article I quoted earlier in the thread.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:14 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:By what right does patches feign indignation at the fact that issues are dealt with differently in different places?


They're not. Patches laid-out a scenario that would be replicated in any country in the world. Only in countries undergoing one of these pretend revolutions is the elected government supposed to turn over power to whomever can get less than 1% of the electorate to gather in one place for a few days and scream loudly. This was also pointed out by the exiled American dissident Diana Johnstone in the Counterpunch article I quoted earlier in the thread.


only the countries... implying that their are other countries. That creates separate treatments, does it not?
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:15 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:By what right does patches feign indignation at the fact that issues are dealt with differently in different places?


They're not. Patches laid-out a scenario that would be replicated in any country in the world. Only in countries undergoing one of these pretend revolutions is the elected government supposed to turn over power to whomever can get less than 1% of the electorate to gather in one place for a few days and scream loudly. This was also pointed out by the exiled American dissident Diana Johnstone in the Counterpunch article I quoted earlier in the thread.


only the countries... implying that their are other countries. That creates separate treatments, does it not?


sorry, you don't understand
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:22 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:Patches, are you trying to argue that the Ukraine should be like the US in every conceivable way or else there is a grave injustice?


lolwut


Why should we expect that the way riots are dealt with in Ukraine is the same way they should be dealt with in the States? By what right does patches feign indignation at the fact that issues are dealt with differently in different places? By no right - he's just setting up false standards so he can tear them down.


By the same 'right' in which you apply your theory...
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby GoranZ on Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:37 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Patches, are you trying to argue that the Ukraine should be like the US in every conceivable way or else there is a grave injustice?

"Those bastards don't speak English! What if the Tea Party didn't speak English? RAGE!"


He didn't mention language, he only made perfect analogy ;)

So regardless what will you write he can demolish it with his post. I quoted it so you can read it again, if something is not clear, read it again, and again etc.



patches70 wrote:For those who think the protests in the Ukraine are some sort of democratic something (it's not), or about freedom (it won't be, just exchanging one whip master for another, at best), a simple thought experiment would be good to perform.

What if, the Tea Party organized a few thousand people and took over The Mall. They clash with police, burn down the DNC, occupy the Capitol building and demand that Obamacare be immediately repealed and/or Obama immediately resign. Say this movement is using as it's figurehead what's his name, Boehner (LOL) or some other Republican or opposition party.

Would all of you have the same reaction, as in "Good on you Tea Party!"

Further more, have the Russian Sec of State talking with the Russian ambassador to the US via unsecured cell phone talking about who is going to replace Obama.

Would Obama stand for such a thing? Would he "respect the protesters" and step down? Would the American people stand for such a thing?

What would Obama do in such a situation? What should he do?

Roughly half of the country want's Obama out of office.

Such a thing happening in the US is unlikely at this moment because frankly the average US citizen has a lot more to lose than the average Ukrainian. Subjectively speaking I suppose. The costs for the Americans would be much greater than the costs to the Ukraine's citizens in their revolution. But that's BBS' alley.

Obama, or any Republican/Democrat President would smash such an uprising in the US if the other party tried this shit, in a heartbeat. And roughly half the nation would be for or sympathetic to the uprising while the other half would be opposed to downright hostile to such an uprising.
And we would insist beyond all doubt that everyone else in the world stay the hell out of such a mess if we were to go through such a thing.

And we would use the same tactics as well, the cartoonish nature of the current Ukraine President (is he still the President?) would be applied to Obama. An evil dictator completely unbending. The protesters would be labeled terrorists and bombed and/or imprisoned.
Yet, Yanukovych offered to negotiate with the protesters. He fired the PM and offered the job to Arseniy Yatsenyuk (leader of the opposition party), and offered Vitali Klitschko (leader of yet another opposition party) the Deputy Prime Minister job.
Furthermore, Yanukovych had the laws against the protests repealed, gave amnesty to everyone who had been arrested during the protests.
He offered peace and a coalition government until the next elections. The opposition didn't want to share power, they want all the power, now.
Does that sound like an unyielding tyrant?

Hell, why take a chance that your claim on power will be unredeemed come election time when you can just seize power now by force?

It's a lot more complex than the Putin vs the Ukraine Freedom Fighters. At the real heart of the matter was a deal made, a choice between two deals.
Russia offered $15 billion in loans and cut rate oil and gas prices for Ukraine.
The EU offered tiny loans and credit, demanded reforms in the Ukraine economy and insisted on IMF monitoring of the Ukraine (one doesn't want the IMF looking over their shoulder, but that's another subject entirely) and even after all that there was still no guarantee that the Ukraine would be allowed EU membership.

Which deal should have Yanukovych gone with?
It's clear what deal the US and the EU wanted Ukraine to go with, but which was actually better for Ukraine?


So end of the day, this is Ukraine's crisis and it's not a damn thing to do with the US. But it's funny how it's always portrayed as "Democracy! Freedom!" and all that other nonsense. Hell, even the title of this topic is messed up, it was a long time ago but the original protests in Egypt weren't about getting rid of a tyrant or freedom, it was all started over food riots. But we forget these little details in favor of the other narrative that always driven by people with specific agendas. And those agendas rarely have anything to do with freedom or democracy but almost always involve who has the power.

We can all be fairly certain of a couple of things,
The opposition certainly declined all offers of coalition governments and peaceful ends to the protests.
The government of Ukraine caved on lots of the protesters demands.

Someone wanted it to get violent, so who was it that turned it all violent and was it worth it?

Time will tell I suppose.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby BigBallinStalin on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:39 am

Here's another good reason to pay heed to those who don't care to protest: they might know better than to protest. Perhaps they've realized that the latest developments are just a charade; it's another power grab, so they're the wiser. We sit here and talk about the event, and some of us get outraged--over an issue of which we do not possess local knowledge.

There's plenty of reporters exclaiming about the latest atrocities and how 'something must be done', but what do they really know? And should we get ahead of ourselves? Should we really let our emotions lead us? Perhaps that'll misguide us. Perhaps we would be fueling the fire toward greater ruin.

This is another reason why I'm hesitant to immediately support some faraway political upheaval. I'm skeptical of any plan invoking a domestic or foreign government to 'aid' others.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby Dukasaur on Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:26 am

GoranZ wrote:For a thousand years Russian masters have treated the Ukraine as a farm where cheap slaves are bred, to be conscripted into wars when required and sent home without a pension when not. Or a farm where cheap whores can be bred, to be handed out as party favours to ugly apparatchiks. Or a farm where cheap wheat is grown to feed hungry Russians. Or a farm where Russian iron ore is turned into high-quality steel at bargain-basement prices, by hungry Ukrainian slavesworkers who are happy to make a quarter of what the workers make in the same steel mill on the Russian side of the border.


Ukrainian GDP per capita in 1992(1 year after independence*) was $5150, while Russian was $7859. 22 years later Ukrainian is $7500 while Russian is $18000. Seems to me that "unexploited" Ukraine didn't do a lot when it comes to economic growth... I wonder what it would have been if they were exploited![/quote]
When were they not exploited? I'm sorry, I must have blinked and missed that moment.

I hope you're not trying to say that political independence meant the end of the game, because it certainly didn't. Ukrainian economy is still controlled from Moscow. When Moscow wants to buy an election, it says to the Russian defense contractors, "buy some steel from Ukraine." Ukrainian steel mills crank up production, workers rush off to work, banks get all happy and start printing money, everybody has a big hard-on in the morning. Six months later, election is over, and there is danger that Ukraine might have some economic growth, so Moscow says to the defence contractors, "cancel Ukrainian contracts." The contracts are cancelled, the steel mills shut down, the workers go hungry, the loans go unpaid, everything goes to shit. Guys at the Politburo or whatever they call it nowadays split their guts laughing. This is what is known in Moscow as good fun.

The game hasn't changed in hundreds of years, except that it used to be played with wheat, then later oil, and now it's played with steel. Of course the steel mills aren't the only business, but they're crucial enough that the spinoffs from them makes or breaks the rest of the country. And Russian defense contractors aren't the only customers, but they're crucial enough that they make or break the steel mills.

In one way or another, Russia plays this little game of cat-and-mouse with every country around, with the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Azeris, with everybody, for hundreds of years. A thousand in some cases. The only way a country can save itself is to cut off all contact with Russia, go cold turkey 100%, develop new (but further and more difficult to enter) markets, but that is of course a painful solution with considerable temporary dislocation, and difficult to sell to the voters.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby Phatscotty on Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:34 am

BigBallinStalin wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:WOW!


Sorry, PS. We're having an intelligent conversation here. You might want to move this to the suggested OT subforum or supply a few more insightful words with your "WOW." :P


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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:33 am

GoranZ wrote:
He didn't mention language, he only made perfect analogy ;)


It's not a perfect analogy at all. They are different countries, with different people and different political atmospheres. The economics are different, the situation is different.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 9:51 am

What if, the Tea Party organized a few thousand people and took over The Mall. They clash with police, burn down the DNC, occupy the Capitol building and demand that Obamacare be immediately repealed and/or Obama immediately resign. Say this movement is using as it's figurehead what's his name, Boehner (LOL) or some other Republican or opposition party.

What if the Democrats, with their first president in office clashed with police, occupied and burned down the White House? Well, they did, and Andrew Jackson is one of the greatest presidents ever. "Good on you, Democrats".
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby GoranZ on Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:11 am

Dukasaur wrote:
GoranZ wrote:Ukrainian GDP per capita in 1992(1 year after independence*) was $5150, while Russian was $7859. 22 years later Ukrainian is $7500 while Russian is $18000. Seems to me that "unexploited" Ukraine didn't do a lot when it comes to economic growth... I wonder what it would have been if they were exploited!
Ukraine GDP - per capita (PPP)
Russia GDP - per capita (PPP)
*I couldn't find data from Soviet Union so I used after the independence of Ukraine and Russia.

When were they not exploited? I'm sorry, I must have blinked and missed that moment.

I hope you're not trying to say that political independence meant the end of the game, because it certainly didn't. Ukrainian economy is still controlled from Moscow. When Moscow wants to buy an election, it says to the Russian defense contractors, "buy some steel from Ukraine." Ukrainian steel mills crank up production, workers rush off to work, banks get all happy and start printing money, everybody has a big hard-on in the morning. Six months later, election is over, and there is danger that Ukraine might have some economic growth, so Moscow says to the defence contractors, "cancel Ukrainian contracts." The contracts are cancelled, the steel mills shut down, the workers go hungry, the loans go unpaid, everything goes to shit. Guys at the Politburo or whatever they call it nowadays split their guts laughing. This is what is known in Moscow as good fun.

The game hasn't changed in hundreds of years, except that it used to be played with wheat, then later oil, and now it's played with steel. Of course the steel mills aren't the only business, but they're crucial enough that the spinoffs from them makes or breaks the rest of the country. And Russian defense contractors aren't the only customers, but they're crucial enough that they make or break the steel mills.

In one way or another, Russia plays this little game of cat-and-mouse with every country around, with the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Azeris, with everybody, for hundreds of years. A thousand in some cases. The only way a country can save itself is to cut off all contact with Russia, go cold turkey 100%, develop new (but further and more difficult to enter) markets, but that is of course a painful solution with considerable temporary dislocation, and difficult to sell to the voters.

Trade between Ukraine and Russia and Ukraine and EU for 2012:
- Ukrainian exports to EU - $18.57 bil. , Ukrainian Imports from EU - $28.14 bil.
- Ukrainian exports to Russia - $16.54 bil. , Ukrainian Imports from Russia - $17.49 bil.
*Source Economy of Ukraine on Wikipedia

According to those official numbers Ukraine is exporting as much as it is importing from Russia, but EU is milking Ukraine a lot. Poor Ukraine exports 65% of what it is importing from EU.

Now since you haven't presented any evidence of what you are claiming and since Numbers do not lie but PEOPLE DO I can freely conclude that YOU ARE LYING
BTW are you NeoNazi? I know Russians hate them a lot, so I presume NeoNazis hate Russians a lot also.


DoomYoshi wrote:
GoranZ wrote:
He didn't mention language, he only made perfect analogy ;)


It's not a perfect analogy at all. They are different countries, with different people and different political atmospheres. The economics are different, the situation is different.

Jews are not humans, Arabs also, Blacks should be exterminated... Those are Nazi words.
All humans need same things to be happy regardless of race or language. Only politics and religion are making differences.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:30 am

Oh, I didn't realize that patches was saying that both the Tea Party and Tymoshenko are trying to kill Jews and blacks, just like the Nazis. I am not very good at reading subtext. Thanks for enlightening me, GoranZ.

That begs the question: PhatScotty, since you support the Tea Party (and therefore, according to GoranZ, according to patches, the Nazis) why do you listen to hip hop?
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:32 am

Anyway, Goodwin's law and all that... It was a fun spat.

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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby GoranZ on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:19 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Oh, I didn't realize that patches was saying that both the Tea Party and Tymoshenko are trying to kill Jews and blacks, just like the Nazis. I am not very good at reading subtext. Thanks for enlightening me, GoranZ.

That begs the question: PhatScotty, since you support the Tea Party (and therefore, according to GoranZ, according to patches, the Nazis) why do you listen to hip hop?

Well I don't think that Tea Party is celebrating Nazi holidays, but some of the Tymoshenkos ally's are, so clearly you mixed something... thus the enlightenment didn't work(tho I want hoping that it will).

DoomYoshi wrote:Image

Nice concept... if you cant win run as fast as you can, but I doubt you will get far enough :)
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby DoomYoshi on Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:50 pm

Nazi holidays. I asked my grandmother (who grew up in Nazi Germany) what holidays they celebrated. Right away she said Christmas. I was like, oh shit, I had no idea that was a Nazi holiday - I always celebrate it. Then New Year's Day, Easter, OMFG I can't believe. I thought my black power avatar and signature made me not a Nazi, but the holidays I celebrate do. What a crisis of identity I am having.
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Re: So, the Ukraine is trying to pull an Egypt now.

Postby GoranZ on Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:03 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:Nazi holidays. I asked my grandmother (who grew up in Nazi Germany) what holidays they celebrated. Right away she said Christmas. I was like, oh shit, I had no idea that was a Nazi holiday - I always celebrate it. Then New Year's Day, Easter, OMFG I can't believe. I thought my black power avatar and signature made me not a Nazi, but the holidays I celebrate do. What a crisis of identity I am having.

Holidays you mention are not Nazi holidays they were celebrated in Germany long time before Nazis ever existed but for example "Birthday of the Führer" is Nazi holiday, so you celebrate it?

I told you you wont get far :D
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