Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[patches70]

- I find it interesting that you don't care how another, with a culture very similar - with subtle differences - to you own, operates. Is that how you really feel? Because I get involved in these discussions not to cause trouble or poke fun, but to genuinely get a better understanding of the world (not that you are a representative sample at the individual level, but you are mostly smart cookies and you do at least sometimes use facts etc ). This in turn shapes my outlook to a certain, limited*, extent.

Oh, I'm sure you've got a fabulous culture, rich in heritage and all the other platitudes. When I say I don't care, that's not to mean I look down upon your culture, I'm just not all that interested is all. Some people are interested in such things, others are not. It's no big deal.

There are all kinds of cultures out there. Just because they are out there doesn't make them interesting or admirable. I believe there are cultures out there that promote clitoral mutilation, bondage, slavery and all kinds of other nasty (from my POV) habits that I really have zero interest in learning more about for none other than the simple fact it will just disgust me.

Not saying your culture goes anywhere near that you understand. I'm just not a blind follower of multi culturalism. It's over rated IMO.

If I by chance ever visit your country, I'm sure I'd have a good time and get along just fine. And I'd learn what I needed to learn.

Now let's see, what do I know about New Zealand culture? You guys like sheep, agriculture I think. Got a nice amount of wild life (which is cool in my book). I guess you are part of the Queen's Empire or whatever it is that's called. Your navy ships are like HMS this or that? I dunno, I guess you live like you want to live, which is all I really need to know I guess.

I remember, a year or so ago, an Australian teenager sailed around the world. On another forum an Australian member of the forum went and made a post about the trip. It was a great source of national pride for him and the land of Oz, was my impression.
Well, a few of my countrymen couldn't help themselves, began criticizing the teen. Said she was stupid, what were her parents thinking, I mean it was pretty bad.
I couldn't help myself. I had to step in and remind my fellow American forum members that this girl was Australian, they look at the world differently. I stated that for my part I was proud of the young woman and that I hoped my own daughter would have as much courage, skill and confidence in herself that she could do such a thing. It would make me proud as well, despite the dangers.

This forum member later thanked me, told me how pissed he'd gotten at some of the responses from my countrymen. They were assholes I told him. Don't hold it against all of us Americans.

Now, I may not go out and actively explore other cultures as some other people might think I should, but dang if I can tell if something is a good thing or not, despite whatever culture it comes from.

I think that serves me well enough, and if not, I don't give a rat's ass! Haha, not being disrespectful there at the end, you said you don't understand my culture and it doesn't even occur to me to try and explain it to you. If you want to understand you will. If you can't understand it, I'm not going to offer any insights. If you can't figure out that American's aren't gun toting racist maniacs who live for nothing more than to gun someone or some minority down in the street, then nothing I can say will convince you.

We aren't as bad as you may think we are. Not anywhere close. Americans, the vast majority, just want to live in peace, raise our families as we see fit and make a living. Pretty much like everyone else in the world.

[Woodruff]

Just like women who dress provocatively are begging to be raped.

Woodruff... Just saying bro that was off the deep end. That's not a comparison by any means.

Perhaps, then, you can explain WHY it's not a valid comparison, instead of simply snipping out the point I was responding to as if it doesn't exist?

You're saying because women that dress like that all the time are going to get raped.

No, I didn't say that at all, actually.

Yes, yes you did. You inferred that all women who dress that way get raped.

You need to learn how to read. I did not say that. In fact, it seems painfully clear to me on re-reading it that there shouldn't even be any confusion about the fact that I did not say that. It's really pretty clear.

They don't want to, and they aren't even the ones who start the bad conflict in the first place.

The statement I was directly responding to was "Being disrespectful like that is begging for a confrontation, something I feel disrespectful people are looking for, because hey, they don't have any respect!"

The stupid idea that being disrespectful is begging for a confrontation is quite similar to the stupid idea that if a woman dresses provocatively, she is begging to be raped. In both cases, the biased observer is foisting their own misguided notions onto someone else as to "what they want".

Not really... The women don't want to be raped. I fail to see how you grasp this concept, if any at all. And you really can't even compare women's dress to this.

Do you believe the kid who had his music playing too loudly wanted to be killed? THAT'S THE FREAKING POINT of the analogy.

He probably lives in Massachusetts

Huh?

Can't handle a little troll thrown your way? I would have figured the massive troll as you are, would have gotten this.

I didn't see it as a troll at all. To be honest, I STILL don't understand it. What does Massachusetts have to do with the discussion at all, and how does it relate to my theoretically living there? I'm just missing the point...why Massachusetts?

This is really sad. You don't know that Massachusetts is the most liberal state?

I'm curious as to your statistics in determining that Massachusetts is "the most liberal state". How was that determined? Was it determined by how long it's been since they've had a Republican Governor, perhaps?

But whatever. Just stop trolling and maybe you will be respected more.

Funny you should say that, given that you just admitted to trying to troll me. But then again, based on your posts, it's unlikely that you're too concerned about anyone respecting you.

[Woodruff]

I don't really see anything productive trying to chase that down. As far as I'm concerned an individual has a right to protect himself. That might be one the ultimate truths.

Yes, I would agree in general...but does an individual have the right to specifically create the situation in which they are then forced to defend themselves? I think that becomes a trickier area that certainly applies to Zimmerman and very likely applies to Martin.

[patches70]

I don't really see anything productive trying to chase that down. As far as I'm concerned an individual has a right to protect himself. That might be one the ultimate truths.

Yes, I would agree in general...but does an individual have the right to specifically create the situation in which they are then forced to defend themselves? I think that becomes a trickier area that certainly applies to Zimmerman and very likely applies to Martin.

Of course it's tricky! People get themselves into bad situations all the time. Bad situations that aren't unlawful in themselves (but stupid) and end up leading to some very bad results. Luckily, we have courts, judges and juries to sort out the aftermath and hopefully, leads to improved behavior by everyone else in the future.

But come on, who is against neighborhood watches? Apparently, that's what Zimmerman was doing. We are encouraged by police to set up such things, to help them out. Are we not? So this time gets out of hand, maybe we should ban neighborhood watches or set up rules and regulations that are so restricting that no one would be part of them.

And Zimmerman may have been acquitted, but he ain't exactly a free man, is he? One way or another, he pays for his actions. It may not be how some people want to see him pay, but pay he does none the less. We all pay at some point for the things we do. Best for each of us to do right.....if not, well, bad things are likely to happen then.
<shrugs>

[Woodruff]

But come on, who is against neighborhood watches?

Oh, I have no problem with the idea that Zimmerman was participating in a neighborhood watch. I actually completely support the idea of neighborhood watches. That being said, as a neighborhood watchman, I would also strongly suggest taking the advice of the police when they ask you not to do something...they probably know what they're doing.

[Jdsizzleslice]

You need to learn how to read. I did not say that. In fact, it seems painfully clear to me on re-reading it that there shouldn't even be any confusion about the fact that I did not say that. It's really pretty clear.

You need to learn how to post, and think about what you said. "Like women who wear those types of clothes." referring to the women who do. Which means all of them. Wow not a hard concept to grasp.

Do you believe the kid who had his music playing too loudly wanted to be killed? THAT'S THE FREAKING POINT of the analogy.

Spock showing a little emotion? You're not fit for the job. The kid wasn't just playing his music. The confrontation was there, and you can't deny that.

I'm curious as to your statistics in determining that Massachusetts is "the most liberal state". How was that determined? Was it determined by how long it's been since they've had a Republican Governor, perhaps?

Blah Blah Blah "Statistics" It's the most liberal-minded state. I said nothing about political parties. I said it was the most liberal state. And you say I can't read?

But whatever. Just stop trolling and maybe you will be respected more.

Funny you should say that, given that you just admitted to trying to troll me. But then again, based on your posts, it's unlikely that you're too concerned about anyone respecting you.

So when did this become about me? I do have respect bud. You're just known as the common forum troll. I love how you like to turn things on others and forget the main issue. Like most good trolls, you never break the rules but bend them so far as to make others break them. You'd better watch the trolling from now on, Spock, better not let those emotions show.

[rdsrds2120]

I saw this Scottish anti-rape commercial a while ago and found it very fitting:



But I won't send this thread off-topic!

BMO

[thegreekdog]

I really don't know, don't care and don't comment on how Loot and the people on His island do things.

Interesting comment for two reasons:

- I like how I have my own island! Goooood times!

- I find it interesting that you don't care how another, with a culture very similar - with subtle differences - to you own, operates. Is that how you really feel? Because I get involved in these discussions not to cause trouble or poke fun, but to genuinely get a better understanding of the world (not that you are a representative sample at the individual level, but you are mostly smart cookies and you do at least sometimes use facts etc ). This in turn shapes my outlook to a certain, limited*, extent.

* this is, after all, an internet forum.

Loot, I love you, so that's my caveat here, but seriously? I don't see you posting in threads or creating threads on any other countries around our fine world. I'm fine with you commenting on American crap, mostly because there is more discussion. But you're kind of taking a high and mighty "I want to learn about the world for the sake of learning" approach that is simply an exaggeration.

[PLAYER57832]

I think the whole story is desperately sad , the likes of Phatty and Jessie Jackson are 2 sides of the same coin , the dead kid is just a pawn in their game. The murder charge was absurd , a lesser charge was always more likely to succeed , more about the prosecutor making a name for herself than justice in my opinion.
In a perfect world a civil case will prevent Zimmerman from benefitting financially , ' self defence ' laws will be tightened and the prosecuting attorney will spend the next 5 years making coffee and doing the filing.

Like greekdog... I agree this pretty much says it all.

How a woman dresses (is she asking for it?) could be compared with the "profiling people as criminals" as an ill informed method of using preconceived stereotypes to jump to conclusions.

I do not agree with your last sentence (in the Martin v. Zimmerman case specifically). There were a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood committed by young black men. Martin was a young black men. Erego, although he was racially profiled (and that is racist) it was for a reason... and a good reason.

Except, does "a rash of burglaries" deserve vigilante death sentences?

I don't really think it's fair to characterize this as a "vigilante death sentence", and I find it unlikely that a reasoned individual would consider it one unless they were trying to score political points for some reason.

Then again, your response could be seen that way...

When a guy goes against police orders to track someone down because he believes they are guilty of a crime.. that IS the very definition of vigilantiism, and the very reason it is wrong is because it too often does result in death sentences. It takes a lot of training to react properly (or not react, as the case may be) in confrontations.

Do I believe Zimmerman was "out to kill" from the outset? No. But, I think the outcome was predictable. A predictable outcome means it was very preventable, and should have been prevented.

The bottom line is that even if there were burglaries committed by Martin, then was shooting him the right thing? I would say "no". The fact that no evidence has appeared that he truly was doing anything harmful makes it wore.

[PLAYER57832]

STOP IGNORING ME SCOTTY

Scotty can you change the poll to:
I agree with the verdict and am mostly liberal
i disagree/mostly liberal
i agree, mostly conservative
I disagree, mostly conservative
I agree, libertarian
I disagree, libertarian
I'm a douchebag

Nice example of profiling... and nice example of how profiling is just wrong, a pretended shortcut to understanding that really leads to misinformation and misunderstanding.

[thegreekdog]

When a guy goes against police orders

THE POLICE DID NOT ORDER HIM TO DO ANYTHING!!!

The bottom line is that even if there were burglaries committed by Martin, then was shooting him the right thing? I would say "no". The fact that no evidence has appeared that he truly was doing anything harmful makes it wore.

ZIMMERMAN SHOT HIM BECAUSE MARTIN WAS BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF HIM, NOT BECAUSE HE THOUGHT MARTIN COMMITTED THE BURGLARIES!!!

Seriously... you're absolutely and unbelievably infruriating.

[muy_thaiguy]

When a guy goes against police orders

THE POLICE DID NOT ORDER HIM TO DO ANYTHING!!!

The bottom line is that even if there were burglaries committed by Martin, then was shooting him the right thing? I would say "no". The fact that no evidence has appeared that he truly was doing anything harmful makes it wore.

ZIMMERMAN SHOT HIM BECAUSE MARTIN WAS BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF HIM, NOT BECAUSE HE THOUGHT MARTIN COMMITTED THE BURGLARIES!!!

Seriously... you're absolutely and unbelievably infruriating.

Just to point this out, Martin probably thought Zimmerman was trying to mug him or something, and probably acted out of self defense as well, like how Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense. We don't know the exact details of what happened, only 2 people do and one is dead, but it seems a tragic case of double self-defense. Martin was walking home after buying some snacks, and Zimmerman thought he should confront a lone kid in a hoodie walking down the street in the evening.

So like I said, its a big mess that should not have happened, had Zimmerman listened to the advice and not gotten out of his car.

[patches70]

When a guy goes against police orders

THE POLICE DID NOT ORDER HIM TO DO ANYTHING!!!

The bottom line is that even if there were burglaries committed by Martin, then was shooting him the right thing? I would say "no". The fact that no evidence has appeared that he truly was doing anything harmful makes it wore.

ZIMMERMAN SHOT HIM BECAUSE MARTIN WAS BEATING THE SHIT OUT OF HIM, NOT BECAUSE HE THOUGHT MARTIN COMMITTED THE BURGLARIES!!!

Seriously... you're absolutely and unbelievably infruriating.

hahah! TGD, you mad or somethin'? You ain't gonna get player to see anything other than what she wants to see.

[Doc_Brown]

That Zimmerman was a cop wanna-be brings up another issue I hadn't considered before:

If Zimmerman had actually been a cop I have a hard time believing we would have heard about this story. Yet in a sane world, had he been a cop he should have been held to an even higher standard. Police are given training to defuse tense and violent situations, and invested with a veritable monopoly on the use of force in public society. They ought to be held to the strictest levels of accountability in the use of violence precisely because they are naturally in a position that without that kind of oversight lends itself to the abuse of power and corruption. Yet what we see today is just the opposite. A citizen who at least was able to make a case that he killed in self-defense (albeit perhaps preceded by foolish and provocative behavior) is being crucified in the media, in pop-culture, even by the federal government. And yet story can be piled on top of story of abuse and even murder by law enforcement officers just over the period of time since Trayvon’s death and it goes unremarked on by the media and unnoticed by the population.

http://www.kuyperian.com/trayvon-martin ... brutality/

In short, it's not unreasonable to imagine the exact same scenario playing out where Zimmerman actually had a police badge. And if it had, we would have heard nothing about it on the news.

[Woodruff]

You need to learn how to read. I did not say that. In fact, it seems painfully clear to me on re-reading it that there shouldn't even be any confusion about the fact that I did not say that. It's really pretty clear.

You need to learn how to post, and think about what you said. "Like women who wear those types of clothes." referring to the women who do. Which means all of them. Wow not a hard concept to grasp.

That's not even what I said. If you're going to snip out my statements and then re-insert them into the discussion, could you AT LEAST PLEASE do so accurately? Frankly, this just looks like you're intentionally trying to twist my words to make me look bad. So stop being a dishonest f*ck, jackass.

Do you believe the kid who had his music playing too loudly wanted to be killed? THAT'S THE FREAKING POINT of the analogy.

Spock showing a little emotion? You're not fit for the job. The kid wasn't just playing his music. The confrontation was there, and you can't deny that.

What? The whole problem from the shooter's perspective and the reason he got involved was kids playing their music too loudly in another car at the gas station. Are you even following the conversation at all?

I'm curious as to your statistics in determining that Massachusetts is "the most liberal state". How was that determined? Was it determined by how long it's been since they've had a Republican Governor, perhaps?

Blah Blah Blah "Statistics" It's the most liberal-minded state. I said nothing about political parties. I said it was the most liberal state. And you say I can't read?

You say it's the most liberal state, but you're providing no actual evidence for it being the most liberal state. It's just you saying it. So I'm asking you for the evidence showing that it's the most liberal state. And you said nothing of political parties, but I asked because I thought perhaps that was your measuring stick.

But whatever. Just stop trolling and maybe you will be respected more.

Funny you should say that, given that you just admitted to trying to troll me. But then again, based on your posts, it's unlikely that you're too concerned about anyone respecting you.

So when did this become about me?

Well I could ask the same question...when did it become about me? When you made it about me by claiming I was trolling. A statement you made about me followed up by an admission on your part of trying to troll me. Fascinatingly ironic, isn't it?

I do have respect bud. You're just known as the common forum troll.

Oh, you only listen to Phatscotty. Now everything becomes apparent...the twisting of the words, the claims of trolling, the inability or UNWILLINGNESS to follow a discussion. Well, at least you let me know how seriously to take you, finally.

I love how you like to turn things on others and forget the main issue. Like most good trolls, you never break the rules but bend them so far as to make others break them. You'd better watch the trolling from now on, Spock, better not let those emotions show.

Thanks, Phatscotty.

[Woodruff]

I think the whole story is desperately sad , the likes of Phatty and Jessie Jackson are 2 sides of the same coin , the dead kid is just a pawn in their game. The murder charge was absurd , a lesser charge was always more likely to succeed , more about the prosecutor making a name for herself than justice in my opinion.
In a perfect world a civil case will prevent Zimmerman from benefitting financially , ' self defence ' laws will be tightened and the prosecuting attorney will spend the next 5 years making coffee and doing the filing.

Like greekdog... I agree this pretty much says it all.

How a woman dresses (is she asking for it?) could be compared with the "profiling people as criminals" as an ill informed method of using preconceived stereotypes to jump to conclusions.

I do not agree with your last sentence (in the Martin v. Zimmerman case specifically). There were a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood committed by young black men. Martin was a young black men. Erego, although he was racially profiled (and that is racist) it was for a reason... and a good reason.

Except, does "a rash of burglaries" deserve vigilante death sentences?

I don't really think it's fair to characterize this as a "vigilante death sentence", and I find it unlikely that a reasoned individual would consider it one unless they were trying to score political points for some reason.

Then again, your response could be seen that way...

What the hell does that even mean? Are you suggesting I'm trying to score political points by pointing out that Zimmerman wasn't taking part in a "vigilante death sentence"? If that's your standard, then you should re-think things.

When a guy goes against police orders to track someone down because he believes they are guilty of a crime.. that IS the very definition of vigilantiism

IF that were true (and I don't agree that it is), that still doesn't mean that Zimmerman's intent was to carry out a vigilante death sentence.

Do I believe Zimmerman was "out to kill" from the outset? No.

Then it wasn't a vigilante death sentence.

But, I think the outcome was predictable. A predictable outcome means it was very preventable, and should have been prevented.

There are ANY NUMBER of ways this could have been prevented, no question. I don't think it's highly predictable that a Neighborhood Watch is going to result in a vigilante death sentence, no. I base that statement on the low number of deaths associated with Neighborhood Watches.

The bottom line is that even if there were burglaries committed by Martin, then was shooting him the right thing? I would say "no". The fact that no evidence has appeared that he truly was doing anything harmful makes it wore.

Based on what little we know, I agree. The problem lies in what we DON'T know. If Martin did actually initiate an attack on Zimmerman, then shooting him may have been the only recourse Zimmerman felt he had...not necessarily that it was "the right thing", but that it was a survival reaction.

[Woodruff]

When a guy goes against police orders

THE POLICE DID NOT ORDER HIM TO DO ANYTHING!!!

The police did suggest to him not to leave his vehicle and follow Martin, did they not? Was it phrased as an order? No. But it was still a suggestion of halting further action on his part, which absolutely SHOULD HAVE carried enough weight with him to stop him from doing so.

[thegreekdog]

When a guy goes against police orders

THE POLICE DID NOT ORDER HIM TO DO ANYTHING!!!

The police did suggest to him not to leave his vehicle and follow Martin, did they not? Was it phrased as an order? No. But it was still a suggestion of halting further action on his part, which absolutely SHOULD HAVE carried enough weight with him to stop him from doing so.

Agreed.

[Agent 86]

Zimmerman created the problem, guilty as charged. He is not the law but felt he was entitled to such. Stupid laws in America, who was actually acting in self defense??? Not fucking Zimmerman carrying a weapon, Christ when will America wake up!!

[Woodruff]

Zimmerman created the problem, guilty as charged. He is not the law but felt he was entitled to such. Stupid laws in America, who was actually acting in self defense??? Not fucking Zimmerman carrying a weapon, Christ when will America wake up!!

I don't think whether someone is carrying a weapon or not means they're not acting in self-defense. It doesn't even seem like a reasonable argument.

[Agent 86]

Ok Woody, who was stalking who?

[squeaks_is_mine]

1. Zimmerman could have decided not to follow/profile Taryvon Martin, he needs to accept responsibility for his own negligence
2. Zimmerman could have listened to the 911 operator and not followed Trayvon Martin
3. If Zimmerman had not been secretly armed, he probably wouldn't have followed Trayvon Martin; Zimmerman knew that he had an advantage in any possible confrontation: He was concealing a weapon.
4. Zimmerman could have not shot and killed Trayvon Martin; I'm sorry but how are you 50lbs bigger and go through 18 months of MMA training and lose in a fight to a kid? Weak...
Zimmerman should have been found Guilty of Manslaughter, he initiated the whole thing by profiling this kid, following him after Law Enforcement told him "We do not need you to do that." The sad part is, this means if you are losing a fight you can shoot the victor even if he's unarmed. Eye for an eye, self-defense to self-defense. If you lose a fist fight move on and get better, people so afraid to take a ass-whooping now-a-days.

[Dukasaur]

Agree, disagree, but I don't know how many people if they were being honest would just lay there and let someone kill them or beat them senseless and think "Oh I'll just lay here and hope someone (the cops) get here in time to save me. Hopefully I won't be killed or severely maimed before that happens". Most would attempt to defend themselves in some way and if one had a gun then one could quite conceivably shoot the assailant. If not, the assailant might just take your own gun and shot you dead with it.

I wouldnt have a gun if I were faced with this scenario where I live; so either i'd fight back if I knew I stood a chance, or if I could see that I was beaten I would essentially play dead or escape. I have a small amount of experience with similar situation (although granted most of them are schoolyard stories) and I know that 9 times out of 10 giving up will result in you taking less of a beating. Sure there is sometimes an element of bloodlust, but that is far rarer than people seem to think; and if it is common then as I say: take precautions (and again those precautions need not be lethal).

Your knowledge was not only gained in a schoolyard, but it was gained in a schoolyard of the past. When I was in school things were like that, too. You would say "I give up" and that was the end of it. Things just aren't like that any more. The youth of today have learned their ethics from playing Grand Theft Auto; they think its normal for a fistfight to end with someone going to the trauma centre or the morgue.

I spent quite a few years driving cab on the night shift, and it's truly frightening what I would see. Routine bar fights that in my day would have ended with a bloody nose and somebody falling down, now end with somebody lying unconscious on the sidewalk while three or four people jump up and down on him. Add to that the fact that many of them are cranking anabolic steroids and are more like Minotaurs than humans. So, your folksy wisdom about how Zimmerman might have avoided being killed or mutilated by indicating submission is sadly out of date.

[Agent 86]

If I'm forced to go back to America I will carry a concealed weapon. The law will be on my side, lucky for me I will never put said foot on any god forsaken soil again. Been there seen America, great Country but too many problems. Happy to live in China or Australia.