Illegal Immigration/Invasion

[PLAYER57832]

Shit, if I was them and I heard Obama repeat what he has been repeating over the last 6 months, I would make a B line for the border too. Unfortunately they are starting to stack up againt each other. I'm sure many of you have seen pictures of them all crammed together in a way too small cell. So where are the thousand that show up tomorrow going to go? how about the thousand the next day? what about everyday next week? next month?

If you believe that the way people get their rights is to fight for them, why don't you support people who take a harrowing trip across the border, leaving their homes and families and risking their lives, to obtain greater economic opportunity in a land that prides itself on offering just that?

Why don't I support foreigners breaking my country's laws? I would agree, the way for a Nicaraguan or a Salvadoran to fight for their rights......is to demand change in Nicaragua and Salvador and be the change and never give up and keep fighting.

Support and understanding are two different things. And immigration today is entirely different than immigration over the centuries from other places. There was no welfare check waiting for the immigrants in the 18th and 19th centuries, no food stamps, no free healthcare programs, no rent subsidies, no free education.

The only ones available now WERE available back then.. free education. and some healthcare, though the healthcare available back then was pretty slim by our standards even for the wealthy. Also, while there were no food stamps, there WERE things like food kitchens and people just helping each other out with food.

The rest are generally NOT available to many immigrants, not for extended periods (those granted refugee status do get some assistance, as they ought... we expect other nations to do this, so why not us?). Those deemed illegal get NONE of it, though their kids may get education, in some case (NOT in all cases !!!)

As for rent subsidies.... people were more freely able to camp out in many places, which they are only allowed in very narrow areas today.

So, basically... your ideas about subsidies are just wrong.

The immigrants of centuries past had to do it by themselves, and do it they did. That's why it became so common for an immigrant to work 2 crap jobs most of their lives, but their American born children became doctors and lawyers and entrepreneurs, those were the family owned businesses that offered good full time jobs and contribute to the community and become part of the economy. They earned the shit out of that. Today, there isn't much to earn, which means there can be no gratitude.

I have no idea where you get this idea, but it isn't out of history books are real stories of immigrants.

#1 Immigrants of past centuries got a LOT of help. That is one reason we still, today have things like the Sons of Italy, the Irish Society, ...etc, etc, etc. Each group had their own organization. Nor were all of these simply food-enjoying, music-loving groups of friends. Membership in these groups was often necessary to get jobs. They demanded payments and sometimes exacted heavy interest or other debts. The Italien Mafia, the Irish gangs... each arose from this. The immigrants banded together because they faced serious discrimination, even outright danger.

The part you got correct was that they worked hard and often their kids did get to do better, but much of the entrepreneurship was dependent upon the times. When people were still making their own clothes at home, a few entrepreneurs decided to sell ready made goods. From there sprang the garment industry we have today, but to get anything like that going now requires a LOT more investment, and fighting mass marketed goods made very cheaply overseas. Producing high end products, where there is still a niche for hand made products, requires significant skill.

#2 it was not the small family owned business that offered most immigrants their jobs, it was the emerging factories, along with some entrepreneurial opportunities for a few lucky enough to take advantage of various niches. Either way, they DID become part of our economy, but that part is not a lot different than today. Its not the immigrants that have changed, its the job market and the jobs available. Big business has turned too many jobs into very low wage unsustainable wage jobs.

And as you know, I think we should have a safety net and all, but I draw the line easily at extending the freebies to foreigners who don't respect our laws and don't respect our country. Sure, they respect money of course. But let's not be dishonest about that. That's why the immigrants of the past were proud to become American, and work for it and do it the right way and be proud and hold their head up high. It's a shining example of everything America used to be about, and why our system worked so well and has been able to benefit million of immigrants from all corners of the world. but 'benefit' today has a totally different meaning.

You seem to be operating under some illusions here.

Its American citizens, sometimes not able to find jobs (and yes, some are not worthy of being employed many places, but far more ARE worthy, but still not employed), more often with a job or jobs that just do not cover the bills, who get tax-payer assistance. Very few immigrants are eligible for aid.

Mets I'm sure you are aware all those benefits come out of my pockets and yours (once to get into the real world anyways) and I'm sure you are aware we pay out far more than we put in to the point we have to borrow billions just to tread water and keep the status quo.

It comes out of our pockets so that the bigwigs can take giant salaries and offer stockholders a few bonuses. Compared to that, the money going to citizen indigents, never mind the few immigrants who get anything, is miniscule.

Do you really not understand that Americans are severely pinched right now by ridiculous gas prices and double digit energy price increases and higher food costs for crappier food? higher income taxes, more gas taxes, higher tuition bills, higher healthcare bills....Americans are beating their brains out to try to stay afloat, and then some people cross into our country illegally and get many of those things Americans work so hard for, for free.... Which touches on a general theme in all these issues, a major reason why food prices and energy prices and healthcare prices and education prices rise every year, sometimes rise in double digits...because we have to borrow so much and print so much (for Hondurans and Nicaraguans?) our currency is more and more worth less so it takes more worth less currency to buy the same thing next year than it did this year. Also prices keep going up because the artificial demand is guaranteed into the system, and when you have guaranteed money coming in, that's when you start asking more money for the same thing. The practice is as old as government itself.

I am unclear on how you think this is related directly to immigration. It is a far more general problem than that.

[Phatscotty]

Player, there is a lot you aren't going to get out of reading a post directed at Mets through your own perspective and bias.

You are unclear because if you do not understand how that is relevant (Other than it's related to other ongoing posts and Mets brought it up indirectly) then I am interested in why it is you think you have the power or even the right to demand the pinched working Americans should pay double the taxes what they are already paying to fund your bottomless pit of empty utopia, because that is how much you are advocating for spending other people's money the way you see fit and that nothing can be earned anymore and we are just lucky to have roads and below average schools and we shold just shut up cuz the government built them, as if a road or a school had never existed until the American big government saved the day.

I don't think you have a clue what I am talking about when I speak on how many hours citizens have to work, and many work extremely hard; only to make their 15$/hour wage turn into a net wage, after taxes, of $10.85/hour, with all the rest available for sales taxes. We have a right to demand that money is spent efficiently and a right to demand government be honest about the costs and the no-bid contracts and loading up the gravy train with their buddy system, and that we take budgets and deadlines seriously. We have the right to demand they stop laughing every time they bury us deeper in debt and sell out more and more of our future. We can demand fiscal responsibility, but the battle is all uphill, because certain Americans have no problem at all spending other people's money and telling them they need to pay more to the point we spend twice as much as we take in year after year. Certain Americans judge other people from their high horse that they aren't paying their fair share, or demonize them on the premise they are standing in the way of a cure to a human being who is suffering in remote undeveloped country xyz. We can demand that the government do it's fundamental duty of protecting our borders. We can demand that our government enforce it's own laws, and not just ignore laws certain people with a lot of power don't like for whatever reason under the sun it may be. We can demand as taxpayers that we are not abused and overburdened, and I can make a valid case all day about how my $350 a week missing from my paycheck most certainly is detrimental to the pursuit of happiness, because certain American's are too busy chaining us all together based on other people's misery and suffering. Certain Americans keep adding more and more of everyone elses problems squarely on the taxpayers back like a whip, as if the American workforce is an unlimited source of do gooder money redistribution that you can just keep promising more of our time on a weekly basis go unpaid for. We can demand that certain Americans who have no idea what they are talking about but the loudest in voice yelling "MORE! WE NEED MORE" attempt to begin to fathom just how many hours you are asking someone to work a week in order to pay for what you want and what you think is best. We can demand that our government has no business taking our hard earned money and redistributing it to foreigners at a time when we are all learning America cannot even properly take care of it's Veterans.

You keep saying 'It's not really that much, it's not really that much" as if money grows on trees, and I have recently begun to realize that certain American's literally do subconsciously believe there are no consequences and that money does grow on trees. It's not about 'It's not that much' it's about it being the 1,000th 'it's not that much". We do not have the money that you are promising out. If we had it, we wouldn't need to borrow it. You are promising out borrowed money, at the future's expense.....with interest. That is the death of a thousand cuts. That's how I can spot a phony to a T. They yell the loudest about how much they care and how evil people are just for thinking there is more than one way to do it...but when it comes time to pay the bills, I know you Progressives deep down inside believe "Yah....when that happens I'll be dead anyways...f*ck The World!!!

[Dukasaur]

Your "revolution" is over, Mr. Lebowski! Condolences! The bums lost! ...My advice is, do what your parents did! Get a job, sir! The bums will always lose-- do you hear me, Lebowski? THE BUMS WILL ALWAYS LOSE--

[Borderdawg]

Well now, all this "discussion" is mighty interestin', but we pretty much know why this invasion is happening. It is happening because the governments of Mexico and most Central American countries are corrupt, incompetent, or both. (Of course, the incompetent part also fits our government). It is happening because the governments of Mexico and others want the money sent from the USA to their countries by the mojados working here. It is happening because the message Central Americans are getting from the Obama admin. is, "Come on up, free shit for everybody!"
So we really don't need to keeping beating that horse: Damn thing died days ago.

All the long term consequences ya'll have described and the long term solutions you've proposed, some are insightful, some are insane. Glad to see you youngsters using your brains for something other than video games and keeping your ears separate, though.
But, (and it's a kartrashian sized but[t]), None of this does any good NOW. I am at ground zero. I'm watching my taxes go to help people that contribute NOTHING to my community. Hell, we have plenty of our own local people that need that help, people that have contributed, people with generations of family on both sides of the river. I'm hearing the BS spewing from politicians facial anuses, but nobody is doing anything. Then I watch ya'll get so far afield from what the discussion should be, you're commencin' to irritate me. I don't care about 5 years ago, I don't give a damn about 5 years from now. I don't give a rats ass about fiat currency. What I would like to see from ya'll is, what can we do in the next 30-90 DAYS.

Here's what is happening here now. The border patrol just shipped in 300 agents from other sectors. Not much help, but at least they are supposed to be experienced boots on the ground troops, not paper pushers. Governor Perry is sending 1000 Texas Guard troops. We shall see what their role will be. Local churches and towns are stepping up, spending local funds on what is a FEDERAL problem. Want to bet we never get reimbursed? What is Washington doing? Other than taking joyrides from DC to McAllen or Brownsville on our dime, they are doing NOT ONE GODDAMNED THING.
So I figure all ya'll that are wantin' to let them all in, you will be more than willing to put your money where you mouth is, right? How about you Mets? How many Hondurans teens you want? We've several with nice MS 13 tatts. Maybe a dozen Salvadorans with similar affiliations? We're gettin' a fair amount of Asians coming through here also. Want some of them too? Just let me know where to send them. I'll tell the coyote it's a COD delivery and you'll pay him when they get there. He will likely be a Zeta, and them boys tend to collect what they think they owed. Hell, better yet, what's your home town? I'll make sure the word gets out that you're a sanctuary city, your population should surge by several percentage points in just a few months. I've lived here for many years working construction, so I have plenty of questionable acquaintances, some of whom undoubtedly have cartel ties. I will be more than happy to spread the news you want them all to come see you. I mean, you wouldn't just talk shit would you? Just another loud mouthed liberal that is quite free with other peoples time, money and property, but not his own? You ain't like that at all, are you Mets? Why, I bet you're getting your bus ticket to Brownsville now, coming down to volunteer your time and money, right Mets? Where you want to help out, Mets? How about in the medical evaluation and treatment? You don't mind scabies, do ya Mets? Come on dude, I know you want to help, and I want to help you help! Or maybe you want to cross the river, help out at one of the shelters in Matamoros or Reynosa, where the OTMs rest up for the final leg of the run, getting across the river. Come on man, let me help you find your niche down here. I know you want to get down here and help. You're not full of bullshit and hot air are you Mets?

[Metsfanmax]

Please do tell them to come to Long Island. I would feel much better knowing they aren't anywhere near racists like you.

[KoolBak]

Oh man....you dunna read so well do you?

[Phatscotty]

Now, a to slicing through your seemingly normal BS manipulation of information, saying the Indians should have protected their border was what I got from your previous response, your response basically saying Europeans came here to cleanse races, and I said it sounds like you are saying the Indians should have protected their borders. So, you are hell bent on the crimes made by Frenchmen and English and all sorts of different people all the way to the American government, so I do ask you, do you think, granted that if the native Americans could have repelled the unwelcome guests to all land in the entire hemisphere they would have survived and you wouldn't be going on about genocide, so what do you think about whether they should have protected their borders or not?

My point wasn't that the Native Americans should have protected their borders -- it was that they had a relatively friendly open borders policy and that gesture was returned with virtual extermination. I think it's pretty clear who is to blame for that -- it is not a point about immigration policy, it is a point about not killing innocent people.

Yes....I know that wasn't your point. I'm asking you a question related to your point of the slaughter of Native Americans by immigrants of the English, French, Portuguese, Finns, Norwegians, Belgians, Italians, Spanish, Russian, Dutch. So, for the third time, do you think the Native Americans should have 'protected their borders' Gee whiz I wonder why o why you are having difficulty with this one???

Why don't you stop pretending to not understand where I am coming from

I don't understand where you are coming from. You talk all about how great America is and how great our values are, but seem unwilling to share those values with people who need it the most.

You don't understand, but all I can do is tell you clearly again and again where I am coming from. So read this very carefully. It's about 'theft of money by law under threat of imprisonment backed up by guns the fruits of your labors' compared with being 'free to share'. Again, read this carefully, once your salary and wages is taken by force, it is no longer 'sharing'. Understand?

But I see another problem with why you may not understand...that is you automatically assume a monetary amount when I speak of American Values, and you, Mets, of all people, should know that when I say American Values it's not about money, it's about principles and traditions and heritage and culture...THOSE kind of values. Honestly, I think you are playing stupid, as this is the 18th time I've given you the exact same response. I think your assumption that 'American Values' is a monetary concept that stems from your own greed, I think it is what gives you away as the truly selfish one, not to mention you are oblivious to the concept of actually paying for everything you want to do, you just stick it on someone else in the future. In a Free country, human beings in principle are not guilty for the sins of their fathers, no. But it looks like you Progressives found a way to get rid of that Freedom too, the way to force the future to pay off the debts of their fathers. WTG! That will probably one day lead to the gov't giving power to the banks to force you to pay your fathers gambling debts, and they will take it right from your check. There is nothing you can do about it, so maybe you want to ask yourself 'What will a person do without Freedom? What CAN a person do without freedom?'

[Phatscotty]

That's why it became so common for an immigrant to work 2 crap jobs most of their lives, but their American born children became doctors and lawyers and entrepreneurs, those were the family owned businesses that offered good full time jobs and contribute to the community and become part of the economy. They earned the shit out of that. Today, there isn't much to earn, which means there can be no gratitude. And as you know, I think we should have a safety net and all, but I draw the line easily at extending the freebies to foreigners who don't respect our laws and don't respect our country. Sure, they respect money of course. But let's not be dishonest about that. That's why the immigrants of the past were proud to become American, and work for it and do it the right way and be proud and hold their head up high. It's a shining example of everything America used to be about, and why our system worked so well and has been able to benefit million of immigrants from all corners of the world. but 'benefit' today has a totally different meaning. Mets I'm sure you are aware all those benefits come out of my pockets and yours (once to get into the real world anyways) and I'm sure you are aware we pay out far more than we put in to the point we have to borrow billions just to tread water and keep the status quo.

So do you think that now that Americans have achieved a high standard of living, we should close our doors and turn people away? Finally, when we've achieved the dreams of our ancestors, we should deny that dream to everyone else? Isn't that making a mockery of what they were fighting for to begin with?

I think you are making a mockery of yourself. Achieved a high standard of living......you don't get to claim borrowing from the future while paying for none of it yourself as 'achieving' Once we can pay for what you are claiming, then and only then will my answer be yes. When I put $1,000 down payment on a house but still owe $459,000, the day I move in I do not claim buying that house as an achievement. When I am done paying the debt, yes, absolutely I would celebrate that achievement. But my comparison isn't even close to what you are claiming as achievement. Your house, you would owe $1,000,000,000,000,000. Yes, that is 1 quadrillion dollars, that's is how much USA unfunded liabilities are, I believe it's 1.2 quadrillion. Unfunded liabilities are the amount that USA promised to pay for future entitlement and benefit payments. Only a fool would proclaim that as achievement. The only thing you have achieved guaranteeing the future will work more and more for the government and less and less for themselves. Doesn't sound like the land of the Free, it sounds like the land of the slave, and you are the one holding the whip, and you simply cannot resist putting more and more bigger and bigger lashes on the future's back

Congrats on your 'achievement'....

And as to closing our doors and turning everyone away, I can only say no that is not what I believe, but it would be the third time this week I've said that to you, so I get you keep repeating that in an attempt to demonize me, which to me means I win on the issues because demonizing means you have surrendered on the issues. If you are trying to get hired at MSNBC, I get it, but you'll have to up your deceit 100 fold. For the last time, Mets, No, I do not support closing the border. Never have. That's just a product of the hate in your heart, that fools you into believing people who do not agree with you or see things your way, well, they must be evil.

[Metsfanmax]

So, for the third time, do you think the Native Americans should have 'protected their borders'

No. I think they were quite reasonable in sharing their land with the Europeans, and I don't see any reason why they should have just forcibly sent back everyone who came over from Europe. It is not that the Native Americans should have 'protected' their borders; it was that the Europeans shouldn't have stolen land by force and murdered innocent people.

You don't understand, but all I can do is tell you clearly again and again where I am coming from. So read this very carefully. It's about 'theft of money by law under threat of imprisonment backed up by guns the fruits of your labors' compared with being 'free to share'. Again, read this carefully, once your salary and wages is taken by force, it is no longer 'sharing'. Understand?

No, I don't understand. Your response to my comment about American values is that your money is being "stolen," and presumably that is un-American; yet then you go on to rail about how American values have nothing to do with money?

Anyway, the point you are ignoring is that the fruits of your labors are largely not the result of your own labors. Most of what you have the capacity to earn (in absolute terms) is the result of the economic and social infrastructure built by our fathers -- you would be a lot less economically productive without that. So if human beings are not guilty for the sins of their fathers, as you say below, then they also don't automatically inherent all the successes of their fathers; some part of that is owed to society, the society that helped you be so prosperous as the result of your labors. Being "free to share" suggests an option of not sharing, and I don't think you of all people are OK with the idea of free-riding off of society. Do you think anyone else should be able to? Our impasse comes because you refuse to acknowledge that a large part of why you are so well-off (again, in absolute terms) is because of that society.

But I see another problem with why you may not understand...that is you automatically assume a monetary amount when I speak of American Values, and you, Mets, of all people, should know that when I say American Values it's not about money, it's about principles and traditions and heritage and culture...THOSE kind of values. Honestly, I think you are playing stupid, as this is the 18th time I've given you the exact same response. I think your assumption that 'American Values' is a monetary concept that stems from your own greed, I think it is what gives you away as the truly selfish one, not to mention you are oblivious to the concept of actually paying for everything you want to do, you just stick it on someone else in the future. In a Free country, human beings in principle are not guilty for the sins of their fathers, no. That is something more common in the old world, you need to get out of the 1600's and join us in 2014.

What American values are threatened by immigrants coming to America, legally or illegally?

[Phatscotty]

Please do tell them to come to Long Island. I would feel much better knowing they aren't anywhere near racists like you.

pathetic!

[Phatscotty]

So, for the third time, do you think the Native Americans should have 'protected their borders'

No. I think they were quite reasonable in sharing their land with the Europeans, and I don't see any reason why they should have just forcibly sent back everyone who came over from Europe. It is not that the Native Americans should have 'protected' their borders; it was that the Europeans shouldn't have stolen land by force and murdered innocent people.

If you think they were reasonable, then why do you always bring up how the Indians got murdered and their land stolen? How was that reasonable? If you really believed that, you wouldn't bring it up all the time. I call total BS. Not to mention, Mexicans and Central Americans are in fact stealing land and murdering innocent people. Ask any rancher on the border why they no longer have their ranch. Why are you only concerned and hold liable Europeans for murder and rape and theft, but turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants murdering and raping and stealing from your own countrymen??

This one happened on the 4th of July. You probably write it off as one instance, and the 4th doesn't mean anything to you anyways. Despite your constant and empty accusations of racism over every little problem, I think there is plenty or real evidence here you are racist towards whites and you hate America. There is no other way you can be pre-occupied with what the French did in 1658 and turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants raping and murdering and stealing right now at this very moment in front of your face.

A pair of illegal immigrants raped a 14-year-old Texas girl at July 4th party in Texas, where the teen was later found sitting naked in a bathtub, police said.

You don't understand, but all I can do is tell you clearly again and again where I am coming from. So read this very carefully. It's about 'theft of money by law under threat of imprisonment backed up by guns the fruits of your labors' compared with being 'free to share'. Again, read this carefully, once your salary and wages is taken by force, it is no longer 'sharing'. Understand?

No, I don't understand. Your response to my comment about American values is that your money is being "stolen," and presumably that is un-American; yet then you go on to rail about how American values have nothing to do with money?

Nope, FAIL. I just told you concerning American Values it had nothing to do with money and everything to do with Culture, Heritage, Tradition, and Principles. It has to do with the American Value of Freedom. Yes it is true money is being redistributed to illegals, but that had nothing to do with the American Values I was talking about (nice troll move tho). I asked you to read carefully, another FAIL by you. Try not to troll so hard, it makes you look mindless, blind, and deaf. I think you understand perfectly well, the real issue is no matter how tightly you have painted yourself into a corner, you simply cannot admit that maybe you are wrong.

[Metsfanmax]

If you think they were reasonable, then why do you always bring up how the Indians got murdered and their land stolen? How was that reasonable?

Clearly in retrospect, knowing what we now know about how the Europeans treated the natives, they would have been perfectly justified to fight off any Europeans coming to America. However, at the time, they had no way of knowing that, and so just shooting the arriving people would have been an unreasonable action. If an unfamiliar person comes and knocks on your door, is your first instinct to point a shotgun at them and tell them to get off your property? I don't think so, because most of us trust others to be reasonable most of the time.

Not to mention, Mexicans and Central Americans are in fact stealing land and murdering innocent people.

Do you think that their status as illegal immigrants had anything to do with their crime of rape? Do you think Americans are not capable of raping other Americans? There's criminals in every group of people. But since criminals are the minority in most groups, the burden is on you to prove that violent crime is rampant among illegal immigrants.

Nope, FAIL. I just told you concerning American Values it had nothing to do with money and everything to do with Culture, Heritage, Tradition, and Principles. It has to do with the American Value of Freedom.

I repeat: what American values are threatened by immigrants coming to America, legally or illegally?

[Phatscotty]

Do you really not understand that Americans are severely pinched right now by ridiculous gas prices

Ridiculous compared to what? We pay lower prices for gasoline than every other major economy except Russia (which has state ownership of the industry).

Compared to what? Well, certainly not Russia. Why in the world would you compare gas prices here to gas prices in Russia? As if we have the same economic system? The same philosophies and morals? the same access to resources? The same delivery methods? LOL are you completely unable to give anyone any credit for anything??? How about this, COMPARED TO AMERICA'S HISTORY of gas prices. I can see how that didn't even occur to you. A gallon of gasoline has almost always been under 1$. I myself remember .79 cents, and getting a half tank for 5$ Then gas went over a dollar, then it went to 2$ historically in the blink of an eye, then it went over 3$ even faster and it has stayed there for years. Can't believe I have to explain the point to you, but that means it used to take 15$ to fill up the gas tank, then it took 30$, now it take anywhere from $60-100. That means Americans are paying more and more for gas, which means they have less and less for health insurance deductibles, less for savings for a car repair, less for food, less for a decent education for their children. That's how they are pinched, and I brought it up because of your demands that working taxpaying Americans pay MORE. To be clear,(can't believe I have to explain this either, but hey, it's Mets) when I am talking about the value of money, I specifically say 'value of money/currency value' When I am talking about American Values, I say 'Amerian Values'

Do you have evidence to demonstrate how significantly immigration contributes to rising food, energy, healthcare or education prices?

LOL, how about something called supply and demand? Let's say my dream did come true, and 20,000 illegal immigrants were dumped in your town. Does your town carry an extra 20,000 loaves of bread at all times at the moment? No, it doesn't. So until the market adjusts, there is going to be shortages of bread, and the price is going to go up. Sure, you won't be surrounded by racists, but there will be shortages. Nice preference. btw, do you have any evidence that when you are the minority white person surrounded by tens of thousands of people of a different race, that hate crimes against people who look like you do not rise dramatically? You think they care if you are compassionate or not? They only care about your skin color, and I guarantee your skinny butt would be moving out of there as fast as you could. There is plenty of evidence what happens when whites are the minority. Ever heard of the knockout game? How about 'hey, there is a white person, they stole our land so we can steal their stuff now!" I know you heard of that one, you said it yourself. Just another example of how you are full of BS here. I answered your question, by all means avoid answering mine but be sure to continue to respond asking a bunch of questions that demonize me and quoting a bunch of things from me that I did not even say. The mark of a true honest person seeking only truth and no bias

Do you agree Mets that there is a certain pride and sense of accomplishment and power that you obtain when you do things for yourself, rather than false guilt everyone else into doing it for you?

Almost all of my success in my life has been due to factors outside my control -- the efforts of my ancestors and of others in my country, and the fact that I was born into a middle class white family, with moderate talent for scientific problem solving. I cannot take any credit for any of that luck, and so refusing to share that luck with others just seems plain selfish.

Wow! That's truly sad, but I understand more clearly how you are ashamed to be an American. Are you sure you don't get credit for staying in doing your homework, while other students were skipping class to get high just trying to get a C-? If anything, I would have hoped you could have identified the ones who are being educated on your tax dollars but totally wasting it....that you would notice maybe they are the selfish ones? Are you sure you don't get any credit for applying yourself? For your discipline? It's all luck??? If you aren't full of BS here like I think you are, then you are 1 in a million. I've never heard anyone in my life say what you just said. But again, to identify your BS, you give all the credit to your ancestors.....so, when the future generations arrive and are born into debt at levels simply unrepayable, what are they going to say about their ancestor Mets who spent all their money as Mets saw fit, and left them holding the bad, with interest? You are such a great ancestor!

Duh? It's a 100% fact. I've heard it a million times. "I'm not waking up early every morning for a crappy job that pays less than the benefits I'm currently receiving for doing nothing"

Surely there is influence here from the fact that if someone gets laid off from a white collar job doing software design, they're not going to want to take a job working on a farm? I think that would be true even if farm laborers in their area earned twice minimum wage.

Influence? However you try to lighten it, it leads to exactly what I said. Can't believe you let yourself be seen saying these things! Go ahead and dodge the simple universal truth that people who get a free check for $400 are not going to go to work and do their 'fair share' (thought that's what you demand? oh, more BS) they aren't going to work for $390. They probably aren't going to work for $420. Probably not even $460. So the reason why what I said remains true, unemployment the way it is set up and run indeed prevents people from working. That's what you don't get. I don't want to do away with unemployment or safety nets, I want them to actually work. If you don't mind how crappy a safety net is, so long as there is a safety net, then you are just being lazy. But, like all other college students who think and say loudly they are Liberal or Progressive, I always hold out hope because I know eventually they will get a job, and when they see how much is missing from their check everyweek, the lightbulb will turn on in their head and they will understand 'maybe those Liberty guys were right? Now that I see just how much is being taken from me and every single person who works for a living, it bothers me when my perfectly able bodied friend comes over and brags about getting food stamps and how the working man is a sucker" then you start to think 'he gets 250$ a month for food, I am missing $250 out of my check....hmmmm" Maybe those Liberty people had a point, maybe they didn't like to kill babies and bathe in the blood.

[Phatscotty]

If you think they were reasonable, then why do you always bring up how the Indians got murdered and their land stolen? How was that reasonable?

Clearly in retrospect, knowing what we now know about how the Europeans treated the natives, they would have been perfectly justified to fight off any Europeans coming to America. However, at the time, they had no way of knowing that, and so just shooting the arriving people would have been an unreasonable action. If an unfamiliar person comes and knocks on your door, is your first instinct to point a shotgun at them and tell them to get off your property? I don't think so, because most of us trust others to be reasonable most of the time.

Want to explain how protecting our borders means automatically shooting people??? LMFAO You really did finish college didn't you?

Not to mention, Mexicans and Central Americans are in fact stealing land and murdering innocent people.

Do you think that their status as illegal immigrants had anything to do with their crime of rape? Do you think Americans are not capable of raping other Americans? There's criminals in every group of people. But since criminals are the minority in most groups, the burden is on you to prove that violent crime is rampant among illegal immigrants.

I think that if we protected out borders, the 14 year old would have never been raped. Guess that's on you then if that's the way you think, right? more BS. Ever occur to you that criminals from other countries are the one's most likely to leave that country? Running from the law is the universal main reason for leaving the country. WTF Mets??? really????

Nope, FAIL. I just told you concerning American Values it had nothing to do with money and everything to do with Culture, Heritage, Tradition, and Principles. It has to do with the American Value of Freedom.

I repeat: what American values are threatened by immigrants coming to America, legally or illegally?

You are still missing the point. Are you doing a lot of drugs or something? How are values threatened by the invasion of millions moving into your neighborhood and country who do not share your values and in fact despise your values? oh yeah, your values will be just fine when you are surrounded by those who have no values/different values. Perhaps their values are counter to your values? How can they change your values? Hmm, if all of them have 8 kids, and you have none, and they all vote, bye bye Mets values. The point, if you don't even know who is coming into your neighborhood, how could you possibly know their values? How could you know if they were here only to work, and only for peace? How could you know if they were here intentionally to set up a drug ring or a prostitution ring or a human traffic ring? YOU COULDN'T! Again, that's what gives away your BS about you thinking you know none of them are criminals, none of them have ill intentions.

I can show you evidence ALL DAY of illegals drinking and driving repeatedly disrespecting our laws, murdering Americans, raping Americans, stealing Americans. But you will just accept that because Americans do it too? Then why don't you accept what the Eurpeans did to the Native Americans? MORE BSSSSSS this is too easy

[Metsfanmax]

LOL, how about something called supply and demand? Let's say my dream did come true, and 20,000 illegal immigrants were dumped in your town. Does your town carry an extra 20,000 loaves of bread at all times at the moment? No, it doesn't. So until the market adjusts, there is going to be shortages of bread, and the price is going to go up. Sure, you won't be surrounded by racists, but there will be shortages. Nice preference. btw, do you have any evidence that when you are the minority white person surrounded by tens of thousands of people of a different race, that hate crimes against people who look like you do not rise dramatically? You think they care if you are compassionate or not? They only care about your skin color, and I guarantee your skinny butt would be moving out of there as fast as you could.

So minorities care more about skin color and are more likely to inflict acts of violence on white people than the other way around? Wow. It takes a special kind of ignorance about American history to believe that. So I'm inclined to believe it's straight out racism, not ignorance. I'm done with you again.

[Phatscotty]

LOL, how about something called supply and demand? Let's say my dream did come true, and 20,000 illegal immigrants were dumped in your town. Does your town carry an extra 20,000 loaves of bread at all times at the moment? No, it doesn't. So until the market adjusts, there is going to be shortages of bread, and the price is going to go up. Sure, you won't be surrounded by racists, but there will be shortages. Nice preference. btw, do you have any evidence that when you are the minority white person surrounded by tens of thousands of people of a different race, that hate crimes against people who look like you do not rise dramatically? You think they care if you are compassionate or not? They only care about your skin color, and I guarantee your skinny butt would be moving out of there as fast as you could.

So minorities care more about skin color and are more likely to inflict acts of violence on white people than the other way around? Wow. It takes a special kind of ignorance about American history to believe that. So I'm inclined to believe it's straight out racism, not ignorance. I'm done with you again.

well, you can pretend to think that, but the truth is the post was about supply/demand and prices, I guess you admit I am right in that. Then I went into the values and what happens to your values when you are outnumbered by others who don't even know what your values are and surely many others who have no values at all.

See what I mean? You ask me a question, I answer it honestly, you totally ignore all the valid points I just dominated you with, and you change that into ignoring that hate crimes exist and that they are ALWAYS committed by the majority against a minority.... 'so you think minorities are more likely to inflict acts of violence on white people" You miss a lot, clearly I was saying you would be the minority, and they would be the majority. When you troll so hard things like that are gonna happen.

You tried to twist and intentionally misrepresent every single thing I said, but time and time again I came back to prove every single point, and after I did that every one of your responses ended with 'you are just a racist' and 'you want to wrap babies in smallpox blankets' and 'so you just want to shoot everybody?" I understand that people see that and know exactly what is going on. It doesn't matter that you don't understand. So, you think you are done with me? HAHA no no no Mets, I am done with you!



Always a pleasure

[Metsfanmax]

LOL, how about something called supply and demand? Let's say my dream did come true, and 20,000 illegal immigrants were dumped in your town. Does your town carry an extra 20,000 loaves of bread at all times at the moment? No, it doesn't. So until the market adjusts, there is going to be shortages of bread, and the price is going to go up. Sure, you won't be surrounded by racists, but there will be shortages. Nice preference. btw, do you have any evidence that when you are the minority white person surrounded by tens of thousands of people of a different race, that hate crimes against people who look like you do not rise dramatically? You think they care if you are compassionate or not? They only care about your skin color, and I guarantee your skinny butt would be moving out of there as fast as you could.

So minorities care more about skin color and are more likely to inflict acts of violence on white people than the other way around? Wow. It takes a special kind of ignorance about American history to believe that. So I'm inclined to believe it's straight out racism, not ignorance. I'm done with you again.

well, you can pretend to think that, but the truth is the post about about supply/demand and prices, I guess you admit I am right in that.

No, as with most of your arguments, it was so ridiculous I didn't even need to respond to it. You're essentially saying that I should want to forgo better life opportunities for 20,000 illegal immigrants because I just couldn't stand the thought of a market disruption in my community for a short while. It's the pinnacle of racism -- and selfishness -- to be so worried about your own well-being that you can't even fathom just the slightest decrease in your own standard of living, for a temporary period, to help so many other people achieve the dreams they want to achieve.

No Mets, you are not done with me. I am done with you!

OK, excellent

[patches70]

I repeat: what American values are threatened by immigrants coming to America, legally or illegally?

Legally there are no American values threatened.

Illegally is another story all together. The law is the law, when you have a government that applies the law sometimes and then ignores it other times, then you start getting into serious problems that Plato talked about all so long ago. Respect for the rule of law.

If the government doesn't care about the laws, then why should anyone else?
Why even have laws? Just let everyone decide for themselves what's legal and illegal. When the government starts doing stuff like this, when they go to apply the law to someone and that person says-"Hey! Wait a minute! You gave those people a free pass, why not me!" And then what leg is there to stand on?

Illegal immigration is illegal. It undermines not only respect for the law, but it also undermines the authority of the government.

So sure because in this case what the government is doing suits your feelings, what are you going to day when the time comes when the government does something that doesn't suit your feelings? Start claiming that the government should follow the law when you were all for them ignoring it when you agreed?

haha, I seem to recall in another thread where you said some company getting away with something or other that you thought that it wasn't be legal. Well ha! Tough! You're all for ignoring the law it seems, so why get bothered about someone else breaking the law as you see it?

[Metsfanmax]

If the government doesn't care about the laws, then why should anyone else?
Why even have laws? Just let everyone decide for themselves what's legal and illegal. When the government starts doing stuff like this, when they go to apply the law to someone and that person says-"Hey! Wait a minute! You gave those people a free pass, why not me!" And then what leg is there to stand on?

Do you drive faster than the speed limit? You probably do -- most people do. Yet you probably also consider yourself a law-abiding citizen in general. And you probably have no problem with the fact that who gets a ticket for speeding is completely arbitrary, in part because the low enforcement level means you are rather unlikely to get a ticket for any particular instance of speeding. You would probably be unhappy if complete enforcement of this law were to occur, even though you do believe it's important for the government to enforce the law. So first, I'd say that this is more complicated than just whether we believe in enforcement of the law. I go out of my way to obey the law most of the time -- drive the posted speed limit on highways, etc. -- and still there are instances in which I can't compel myself to do so. Like, laws against jaywalking, etc.

When it comes to my beliefs about immigration, there are two factors that are relevant here. Sure, I don't believe it should really be illegal, so it's hard to feel angry about violation of this particular law. This is only a hypocritical belief for those of us who believe in complete obedience to the law -- which is no one. But second, what compounds it is that the process for entering the country legally is so difficult and drawn out that to some extent we are creating this problem for ourselves. If we had streamlined our process for allowing immigrants to enter, there would be a lot fewer illegal immigrants.

[Phatscotty]

LOL, how about something called supply and demand? Let's say my dream did come true, and 20,000 illegal immigrants were dumped in your town. Does your town carry an extra 20,000 loaves of bread at all times at the moment? No, it doesn't. So until the market adjusts, there is going to be shortages of bread, and the price is going to go up. Sure, you won't be surrounded by racists, but there will be shortages. Nice preference. btw, do you have any evidence that when you are the minority white person surrounded by tens of thousands of people of a different race, that hate crimes against people who look like you do not rise dramatically? You think they care if you are compassionate or not? They only care about your skin color, and I guarantee your skinny butt would be moving out of there as fast as you could.

So minorities care more about skin color and are more likely to inflict acts of violence on white people than the other way around? Wow. It takes a special kind of ignorance about American history to believe that. So I'm inclined to believe it's straight out racism, not ignorance. I'm done with you again.

well, you can pretend to think that, but the truth is the post about about supply/demand and prices, I guess you admit I am right in that.

No, as with most of your arguments, it was so ridiculous I didn't even need to respond to it. You're essentially saying that I should want to forgo better life opportunities for 20,000 illegal immigrants because I just couldn't stand the thought of a market disruption in my community for a short while. It's the pinnacle of racism -- and selfishness -- to be so worried about your own well-being that you can't even fathom just the slightest decrease in your own standard of living, for a temporary period, to help so many other people achieve the dreams they want to achieve.

Thought you were done? Oh, I hit you square in the brain huh?

You aren't even close, ,and you know it. I have said time and time again, you should be free to demote yourself so others in foreign countries can have however much money you want to give them, and that I should not be forced to live my life for another's sake at the expense of mine and my families. I have family to take care of, and maybe you cannot understand this, but I dedicate myself to my family first and foremost. You are making it harder for me to take care of my family and everyone else to do so by forcing us to take care of 12 year olds in Nicaragua. I didn't say anything about a short market disruption in your community is worth or not worth it. That was just one simple basic answer to your question of 'how do illegal immigrants impact prices, and do I have any proof" but here you are, twisting my words into something else when all I did was answer your question honestly...and what I get is your constant BS trying to throw it in my face. And of course, you conclude from your own trollery that your BS means I am selfish and racist. HA! Like I said, I would like for you not to be in control of my life and what I do with it, who I am gonna help in a foreign country as I watch my grandmother suffer, forcing me to take care of a stranger's dreams, as if those dreams are guaranteed and as if money solves all problems for all people who have problems in the world.

You are nothing but a slave-owner, trying to tell everyone how much they are gonna work based on how much your heart bleeds, all you are doing is cracking the whip on American workers backs, all the while you BS about phony compassion and destroying dreams of strangers at the expense of my family's needs and our dreams. Just who the hell do you think you are???

See what I mean people. Progressives seek to enslave us to everyone else, to bind us to everyone else solely based on misery and suffering. No amount of money is ever enough for this kind of greed. All Mets life, he is going to be screaming "more, more, more!" Calling other people selfish and greedy all along the way.

Crack that whip Mets. Keep telling us how much more we need to work for you, how much more money you demand, how much of our time is yours to control, how much less time we will spend with our families. You feel guilty for slavery? Look in the mirror pal.

[PLAYER57832]

Player, there is a lot you aren't going to get out of reading a post directed at Mets through your own perspective and bias.

You are unclear because if you do not understand how that is relevant (Other than it's related to other ongoing posts and Mets brought it up indirectly) then I am interested in why it is you think you have the power or even the right to demand the pinched working Americans should pay double the taxes what they are already paying to fund your bottomless pit of empty utopia, because that is how much you are advocating for spending other people's money the way you see fit and that nothing can be earned anymore and we are just lucky to have roads and below average schools and we shold just shut up cuz the government built them, as if a road or a school had never existed until the American big government saved the day.

LOL.. you accuse me of basically going off topic for my own "agenda"... and then tromp out a bunch of garbage about doubling taxes on Americans.. as if THAT were related to immigrants.

For the record, yes, I have advocated assessing immigrant wages more than citizens, something that, if anything, would reduce the burden a bit on citizens, though the amounts I have discussed in the past were nowhere near double..more like 5-10%, AND I always say that money should go to provide fire and police services, social services, schools, road maintenance, etc.

I don't think you have a clue what I am talking about when I speak on how many hours citizens have to work, and many work extremely hard; only to make their 15$/hour wage turn into a net wage, after taxes, of $10.85/hour, with all the rest available for sales taxes.

Oh, gee, I have only worked and paid my own bills all my life.

But the part YOU want to ignore is that living in this country is just not free. You want all the benefits and then point to some ideas you have of "abuse" to justify your being selfish.. and yes, that is what it is when you say that its YOUR money and you owe nobody else anything... never mind that you would never be what you are or live the live you do without many, many putting out THEIR money .. and lives..before you.

You claim there is all kinds of "abuse". Now, for the record, the US government is a huge organization, and in ANY large organization you will find more than a few abusers, charlatans, incompetents and frauds. You find the same in ANY large company..and no, they are not much better at finding them all. Again, in any large organization or group of organizations, you will ALSO find a large number of quite competent people with very good ideas, great work ethics and integrity. That is, again, true in ANY organization.. governmental or private. You want to point to the stellar examples of companies and then look at only the dregs of government. You are dishonest at the core, because you are not interested in truly fixing anything or discovering what real problems exist, you only want to attack to meet your personal agenda.

The TRUTH is that the government is mostly a very, very GOOD bargain for the US taxpayers. The real issue is not that government services are overall abusive (though absolutely, there are issues that need fixing, just like in ANY large organization!!!), but that the WORK of the government is counter to what the corporate croney, big business power wants. EPA is hated because it IS effective.. or at least has been, though its been very seriously hamstrung.

I am sure you are going to bring up the VA..and I would not disagree that there are issues needing fixed, BIG issues. HOWEVER, the real point is that the situation in the VA is still, OVERALL not much worse than in the private arena. The causes are different. You pretend its OK that many, many people cannot get healthcare because they lack insurance or have insurance that is paid for, but then fails to deliver approval or payment for services. This is not the place for THAT discussion, I just acknowledge that yes, there is a problem with that particular governmental service. BUT that failure does not mean my point.... that the government is generally a very good deal for taxpayers, is just wrong.

You and those attacking the government have your own agenda... you plain want to destroy the government under some kind of illusion that having individual self rule will somehow lead to utopia. Well, we had that... a period of city-states, areas of warlords, tribal rule, etc, etc, etc.

Its not really individual rule that will result... the proof is around you if you care to view it. We are seeing a passing of power from the individual through government to corporations that earn money, that have earning money as their paradigm and legal obligation, with anything else secondary.

Funny you don't see the connection to the old monarchies that were created for protection... protection at the expense of freedom.

We have a right to demand that money is spent efficiently and a right to demand government be honest about the costs and the no-bid contracts and loading up the gravy train with their buddy system, and that we take budgets and deadlines seriously.

ABSOLUTELY, but that is not what you are doing.. you merely find minutia to attack and claim that as justification for destroying whole hog large areas of government service and protections.

We have the right to demand they stop laughing every time they bury us deeper in debt and sell out more and more of our future.

Trouble is you apply that "they" to the wrong people. The ones laughing... all the way to the bank are the 1%. those controlling the corporations and, more and more, our government. BUT... it doesn't have to be that way. People still have a minor level of power, IF folks like you stop pretending that attacking the government will somehow destroy the corporations that are ready to move into the power vacuume created by removing or hamstringing all the regulatory and protective agencies in the US government.

We can demand fiscal responsibility, but the battle is all uphill, because certain Americans have no problem at all spending other people's money and telling them they need to pay more to the point we spend twice as much as we take in year after year.

Pure baloney rhetoric. Those using "other people's money" are the corporate shareholders who get big checks, but do NOTHING except plop down a bit of cash... and then demand more, even if it means cutting the WORKER salaries, destroying safety protections, ignoring pollution and generally ignoring any negative impact of their profits, with few exceptions.

Certain Americans judge other people from their high horse that they aren't paying their fair share, or demonize them on the premise they are standing in the way of a cure to a human being who is suffering in remote undeveloped country xyz. We can demand that the government do it's fundamental duty of protecting our borders.

OK., now you are trying to bring this back to topic.

A. cannot BOTH demand that the government be denuded, go unpaid and then also ask that that same government you complain about paying anything to ALSO come to your aid. It just doesn't work that way. You either work with and within the government OR you operate to destroy it. Hiding under the guise of "fiscal responsibiilty" does not justify taking down our government, and that is exactly what is happening.... to the pleasure of large corporations that are more than ready to step into the vacuume and have their way with all of us.

B. The CAUSE of the "crisis" at the border is twofold. #1 American business made HUGE profits from hiring illegal aliens. THAT is why so many amnesties were offered by REPUBLICANS. Tightening the border with armed gaurds is the LEAST effective method of stemming the flow. Taxing the companies that want to hire these illegal aliens is far more sensible. #2 Crime and armed gangs in El Salvador, particularly, make life in that country untenable. OUR responsibility lies in the fact that many of these gangs and criminals were not of El Salvadoran origin, they were exported (deported more like) from the US. When you are talking about kids facing serious violence from criminals trained in the US.. the US does have some responsibility.

C. The SOLUTION... arming the border has not helped, it has increased the criminality of the crossings and therefore made the people coming here either more likely to be true criminals or to have been so traumatized they have a hard time living normally as we would. The ANSWER is to first, stop pretending that simply coming here, particularly to work or to join parents, is itself a crime. The crime is in hurting others. The harm is in taking jobs that, yes, should go first to US citizens. NOTE... there will always be room for skilled workers AND for those willing to do the worst jobs for the lowest pay. The problem is not in those areas its it the jobs that are not the worst, but not the best, either.. the "in between" jobs that allow people to come into or stay in the middle class.. it is THOSE jobs that are being pushed down into poverty level pay or just disappearing.

D. The IRONY is that most immigrants, historically, have been more than willing to help legitimate law enforcement, when given the chance. Unfortunately, too often in history, the immigrants have been targeted much as the rhetoric of today, and have been essentially made into criminals when they were not or given little choice but to join into criminality. (the corruption of Irish police and pipe workers, , etc. -- some cases are more "famous" than others, but similar things sprung from most groups at one point or another).

We can demand that our government enforce it's own laws, and not just ignore laws certain people with a lot of power don't like for whatever reason under the sun it may be.

OK, but towhat laws are you referring? The topic here is immigration, but Obama has actually INCREASED deportations under his regime. Border enforcement has also increased.

I can mention quite a few places... lack of research into biological impacts of pollution and such, but those things are pretty far off this topic. How do you feel that Obama, the current government, is ignoring US law at the border?

We can demand as taxpayers that we are not abused and overburdened, and I can make a valid case all day about how my $350 a week missing from my paycheck most certainly is detrimental to the pursuit of happiness, because certain American's are too busy chaining us all together based on other people's misery and suffering.

OR you could make the case that far more is missing to pay stockholders and corporate executives. The proof of my point is the increased concentration of wealth, not just in the top 1%, but the top few of that 1%, while the effective minimum wage and services offered keep going down. The proof of your point is simply that taxes have not gone down.. but nothing goes down in price. Why should you believe taxes can and still provide the things taxes need to provide?

And... how do you feel the immigrants are to blame for your picture, anyway?

Certain Americans keep adding more and more of everyone elses problems squarely on the taxpayers back like a whip, as if the American workforce is an unlimited source of do gooder money redistribution that you can just keep promising more of our time on a weekly basis go unpaid for.

EXCEPT... know when the US budget was balanced? Know when our debt was at a far more manageable level? Back in the late 60's and early 70's... precisely when all those "abusive programs" were at their peak! The slide down began under Reagan, when he decided to take the SS reserve and use it like any other governmental money, when he began cutting food programs... at a time when the US private sector was not hit hard, but was rolling in money.

Oh, yeah... and it was no coincidence that big business loving Reagan offerend amnesties to illegal aliens.

We can demand that certain Americans who have no idea what they are talking about but the loudest in voice yelling "MORE! WE NEED MORE" attempt to begin to fathom just how many hours you are asking someone to work a week in order to pay for what you want and what you think is best. We can demand that our government has no business taking our hard earned money and redistributing it to foreigners at a time when we are all learning America cannot even properly take care of it's Veterans.

OH, now we come to it... we are so poor now that we cannot possibly provide food and shelter for a few kids fleeing crime that stemmed here in the US?

Gotcha! Sorry, but as much as my family is well below the poverty line, I could still manage to feed a couple of those kids... and even to provide room for them in my house, except that I cannot provide them their own bedroom.

You keep saying 'It's not really that much, it's not really that much" as if money grows on trees, and I have recently begun to realize that certain American's literally do subconsciously believe there are no consequences and that money does grow on trees.

Funny... I speant a lot of time emersed in the logging industry... see, money really DOES grow on trees! IF you manage them sustainably.

But the real issue is that you cannot keep demanding cuts, cuts, cuts...and STILL expect the same or increased services. There is no secret to the real problem. US money is not being siphoned off to immigrants (with a few wealthy exceptions), it is being siphoned off to the pockets of a few very wealthy individuals, at the very expense of hard working Americans.

THAT baloney is actually part of why I suggest a tax on immigrant employment. See, if immigrants were really the problem, then having a tax would be the perfect solution. BUT.. it won't pass, because the powers that be know it is not the real problem, and to the extent that the issues immigrants cause are fixed (they do increase the burden on social services, particularly, in some areas), people would then have to turn to the REAL culprits.

But go ahead and be duped, be herded by the corporate mentality that finds it quite convenient to have average Americans fighting over immigration and abortion instead of just fighting for a decent way of life for ALL Americans.

It's not about 'It's not that much' it's about it being the 1,000th 'it's not that much". We do not have the money that you are promising out. If we had it, we wouldn't need to borrow it. You are promising out borrowed money, at the future's expense.....with interest. That is the death of a thousand cuts. That's how I can spot a phony to a T. They yell the loudest about how much they care and how evil people are just for thinking there is more than one way to do it...but when it comes time to pay the bills, I know you Progressives deep down inside believe "Yah....when that happens I'll be dead anyways...f*ck The World!!!

Yeah... except you don't realize you are not really quoting progressives, you are quoting the corporate controllers pulling your strings.

[Phatscotty]

Player, there is a lot you aren't going to get out of reading a post directed at Mets through your own perspective and bias.

You are unclear because if you do not understand how that is relevant (Other than it's related to other ongoing posts and Mets brought it up indirectly) then I am interested in why it is you think you have the power or even the right to demand the pinched working Americans should pay double the taxes what they are already paying to fund your bottomless pit of empty utopia, because that is how much you are advocating for spending other people's money the way you see fit and that nothing can be earned anymore and we are just lucky to have roads and below average schools and we shold just shut up cuz the government built them, as if a road or a school had never existed until the American big government saved the day.

LOL.. you accuse me of basically going off topic for my own "agenda"... and then tromp out a bunch of garbage about doubling taxes on Americans.. as if THAT were related to immigrants.

Nope, have to stop you right there. I didn't accuse you of going off topic at all. I simply said you won't understand something I said to Mets, based on what Mets said to me, based on what I said to Mets. Granted, normally people can jump into the middle of a convo and get right in, except for here Mets was purposefully being dishonest and intentionally not listening with an agenda to demonize.

Doubling the taxes of Americans isn't garbage at all, it's a factual statement solely based on the fact the government spends twice as much as it takes in revenues. In order to pay for everything America spends, taxes would have to double, period.

And again, NOPE, that point is not related to immigrants directly, nor was that the point; it was just an honest answer to Mets question which equally had nothing firectly to do with the point. It's related to communicating over and over again that we don't have the money to pay for this, based on the fact we do not have the money to pay for half of everything we are paying for. Food stamps and welfare rent aid and free healthcare and free education that a large majority of these immigrant children are going to need is just one example of a thousand things that you want more money for, not thee example.

Do you understand what a budget is Player? You make $500 a week, but you spend $1,000 a week. Tell me how that ends for you after 8 years? Before I address the rest of your post, I'd like to hear a statement from you on our spending problem.

#1 Do you agree spending double what we take in is a problem?
#2 Do you think it's right to saddle the next generation of Americans with your debts?
#3 How are we gonna deal with our spending problem and when?
#4 What is your share of these debts? How much are you going to pay in personally?
#5 If we do as you wish, and raise our spending even more, does that make the problem worse?
#6 Tell me who is going to pay for what you want?
#7 Do you think we can realistically pay back our debts? If so, how long will it take and how much more will each citizen have to contribute in order to pay for spending double what we take in, year after year after year, let's make it a decade?
#8 Do you understand how much America is on the hook for concerning unfunded liabilities?
#9 What is that total of unfunded liabilities America has promised to pay in future entitlements and benefits?

You say you want to understand? Get familiar with the basic related facts and the numbers. If I see you are serious and not just trying to Mets me, we are very likely to have a meaningful, productive, and coherent conversation.

[Phatscotty]

Player, these questions are not that difficult. Really they are just pieces of apolitical and unbiased basic information that are directly relevant to the issue. Anyone with such strong opinions on how much money we spend, not to mention constant claims to 'MORE!' should at least be aware of the results and consequences of the actions.

I don't know a single person in the world who believes there should be no such thing as a social safety net; that isn't the issue, it never was. The issue is and always has been for me, to what extent? Certainly other people's money is not unlimited, and money does not grow on trees. At some point, we are going to charge up the debts so highly there won't be a safety net for anyone. Do you understand how that can happen and agree that is possible?

#1 Do you agree spending double what we take in is a problem?
#2 Do you think it's right to saddle the next generation of Americans with our debts?
#3 How are we gonna deal with our spending problem and when?
#4 What is your share of these debts? How much are you going to pay in personally?
#5 If we do as you wish, and raise our spending even more, does that make the problem worse?
#6 Tell me who is going to pay for what you want?
#7 Do you think we can realistically pay back our debts? If so, how long will it take and how much more will each citizen have to contribute in order to pay for spending double what we take in, year after year after year, let's make it a decade?
#8 Do you understand how much America is on the hook for concerning unfunded liabilities?
#9 What is that total of unfunded liabilities America has promised to pay in future entitlements and benefits?

Separately, the divide between what people think is going on concerning the border situation and what is going on in reality becomes more clear as time goes on.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hey, PS, how much real income are you willing to deny people in order to maintain your immigration restriction stance? A 20% raise? How about 50%? What about 100%?

Why am I the dictator who is calling the shots?

Is there really only one way to immigrate? no difference between legal/illegal, right/wrong, makes sense/doesn't make sense? Really? none at all? Because that's the way your questions keep laying it out as.

As in another gap; are you accusing me of denying the income of a person who is a 3 time convicted felon with gang tattoo all over their face? Or are you accusing me of denying the income a well mannered 16 year old virgin raised with a mother and a father with strong family values and a 4.0 GPA that had always dreamed of working at NASA and would like to inquire about furthering educational opportunities in America? Oh, so then it's about 'of course not the murderer, the 4.0 has a great shot tho' but then, back to my main point.....how do we know who is who?

And fourthly your questions tries to lame the blame on me for denying someone's income, as if it's not at all true that 10 million unskilled illegal immigrants with no social security number willing to work for less than minimum wage cash jobs has no impact on the 40 million unskilled Americans who are barely getting by on minimum wage because they actually fear the laws, like buying car insurance.

I aint denying foreigners anything, it's you who seems interested in misrepresenting what is in reality denied American citizens and keeping wages artificially low.

And in order for you to have a point in the first place, it would be a lot better if we actually helped people who needed it on a more consistent basis, like Christians in Iraq or homeschooling Christians from Germany, but we send them back. I don't buy that your compassion genuine when it's only given if the immigrant is more than 70% likely to vote Democrat.

The whole point of the question is to put a price on your position.

You see, let's say there's this guy, Bob. Bob likes the current immigration policy. So I ask Bob, "How much real income of the world are you willing to deny in order to maintain the current immigration policy?"

Let's say that Bob says that the current policy is fine unless EVERYONE in the world would have a 200% increase in their real income. So, if it was shown that if immigration restrictions were relaxed and that everyone in the world's income would increase by 200%, then Bob would have trouble defending the status quo.

That's the main point. You have to make tradeoffs, and if given the relevant information, you'd make a more informed decision in regard to current immigration policy.

People often refuse to answer the question because they don't want to KNOWN to deny people x-amount of foregone earnings. They'd rather dawdle about minor issues while consistently refraining from answering the question.

Main point: your stance on immigration restrictions affects millions of lives. Your opinion entails certain consequences for many people. Will you own up to the consequences? (No, which is why people don't like answering the question. They want a stance which is magically free of consequences).

Okay, I'll play along. Just one more thing in what I think is still a loaded question. The word 'deny' as in deny someone income..... I don't understand how an income can be someone's who has never had it before, not to mention who is not even currently a resident, and does not even have a social security number in order to work in the first place. My question, before I delve further, how can someone with no social security number be denied something that requires them to have a social security number? And why would I be the one denying that income?

Is Player's beloved Obamacare 'denying' me a certain share of my take home income that used to go for the better kind of diapers that result in less rashes for my baby girl? Therefore the more often rashes my baby daughter gets are all Players fault?

I deal with the rest of your response separately

Basically, you're for immigration restrictions--even if the policy has negative consequences for poor people. Thanks for answering.

[BigBallinStalin]

Shit, if I was them and I heard Obama repeat what he has been repeating over the last 6 months, I would make a B line for the border too. Unfortunately they are starting to stack up againt each other. I'm sure many of you have seen pictures of them all crammed together in a way too small cell. So where are the thousand that show up tomorrow going to go? how about the thousand the next day? what about everyday next week? next month?

If you believe that the way people get their rights is to fight for them, why don't you support people who take a harrowing trip across the border, leaving their homes and families and risking their lives, to obtain greater economic opportunity in a land that prides itself on offering just that?

Why don't I support foreigners breaking my country's laws? I would agree, the way for a Nicaraguan or a Salvadoran to fight for their rights......is to demand change in Nicaragua and Salvador and be the change and never give up and keep fighting.

Gee, you wouldn't happen to be using the "it's the law" argument whenever it conveniently matches your beliefs? How many US laws have violated the US Constitution or what the founding fathers had wanted? Do you support all those laws? (If not, then your argument is arbitrary).

Notice how PS doesn't care about the American Dream being offered to immigrants. He won't answer Mets' question. Instead, he'll switch to an extremely costly standard: a foreigner should change policy in his country. Amazing! Why didn't they think of that?! Maybe because their chances of affecting change are negligible...

If that's the standard, then PS would support looser immigration standards. Why? Because as people leave a place, revenues can fall to the point where the government must do something to change its policies. This is called 'voting with your feet', and it should be encouraged if we want people around the world to live better lives (note: this condition is not held by everyone, e.g. PS).