Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[thegreekdog]

It's the John Brown question.

The question wasn't necessarily "Did John Brown free slaves in an attempt to stir up rebellion?"
Yeah, he did, but:
To him the issue was "Is it really legal to enslave people?"
No, it's not. The law of conscience is more important than that of the laws of Virginia, therefor it cannot be wrong to free enslaved people. That was his train of thought.

John Brown never gave a confession of a crime; what he gave was a point-by-point retelling of a courageous act of pre-planned martyrdom. His belief was that the law was what was in the wrong, not that he was in the wrong. Because of his reasoning, he believed that his courtroom retelling wasn't a confession; it was an attack on the law and the people hiding behind it.

And so it is with the juror. The law legalized shooting unarmed black teenagers, and so her decision was based solely on that law. It wasn't a question of whether the law was just. She believes that the law is bullshit, but also believes that the law must be obeyed. That's why her conscience is hurting. She let herself down.
If you put me on a jury, my first duty will be to my conscience. Will yours?

NULLIFY IT BABY!

[thegreekdog]

Why doesn't race have something to do with this, you dumb moron stupid idiot person?
Zimmerman pursued and stopped someone he suspected of breaking the law. What did he base that assumption upon? How was he profiling this person?
Age, build, race, clothing. Zimmerman called the police and told them that this kid "was up to no good, or on drugs." The police told him to stop following him.
"He is responsible for the death of someone, but didn't break the law by killing him."
Welp, the juror in the video said that she had to acquit because the law requires the impossible proof of intentional murder. Her intelligence lead her to know that he was guilty of murder, but she could not circumvent that legal definition of guilt. Yeah he profiled this kid, and yeah he chased him down after the police told him not to. But did he wake up in the morning and say to himself "I'm going to Kill Trayvon today." No, he didn't, and that was what she said was stuck with.
So then yeah, the law must legalize the killing of black teenagers. Because as you said, it happened, legally. Pretending that we are all colorblind in this country is just dumb. Do you know when legal segregation ended in this country? The 1970s. Think on it.

(1) The police didn't tell Zimmerman to do anything; they recommended he stay in the car. I really wish people would stop acting as if Zimmerman disobeyed a direct order.
(2) Zimmerman was not guilty of murder because he did not have the requisite intent. He was guilty of something, but I think your beef is with the prosecutor probably. To put it another way, if he was found guilty of first or second degree murder, there would have been an appeal and he would have gone free anyway because the elements of those murders were not proven in trial.

I will say I completely agree with you that the law does legalize the killing of black teenagers. More black men were murdered in 2010 than in 2000 despite the drop in homicides in the U.S. over the same period.

[oVo]

So how do you throw someone in jail for 25-to-life if the law doesn't allow it?

Had Zimmerman been found culpable for his actions in the death of Martin and been convicted of Manslaughter? He would have a five year sentence and be out in two. If you were to drive an automobile in a reckless manner, jump the curb and run over a pedestrian resulting in their death, a manslaughter charge could be expected with a similar sentence.

Morality, is taught and learned, but the majority of people don't feel empathy for other living things --including people-- at all.

[Woodruff]

Morality, is taught and learned, but the majority of people don't feel empathy for other living things --including people-- at all.

I don't think I agree with the second part of your statement. The way the majority of people feel about their pets, for instance, tells me that isn't true. Sure, there are some really shitty pet owners, but they're far from the majority. In addition, there wouldn't be as much charity or community service going on if what you say were true.

[Woodruff]

I will say I completely agree with you that the law does legalize the killing of black teenagers. More black men were murdered in 2010 than in 2000 despite the drop in homicides in the U.S. over the same period.

Thank you, "War on Drugs".

[thegreekdog]

I will say I completely agree with you that the law does legalize the killing of black teenagers. More black men were murdered in 2010 than in 2000 despite the drop in homicides in the U.S. over the same period.

Thank you, "War on Drugs".

Please take that to another thread. This thread is about the Zimmerman trial and how that epitomizes the problem with gun violence and racism in the United States. No one wants to talk about the War on Drugs, gang violence, the problems of inner cities, black men shooting black men, police brutality, corrupt justice systems, the glorification of violence by our culture or any of the other myriad and more important problems plaguing not just young black men but the United States. All discussion should be limited to Trayvon Martin and Jorge Zimmerman.

[Night Strike]

So how do you throw someone in jail for 25-to-life if the law doesn't allow it?

Had Zimmerman been found culpable for his actions in the death of Martin and been convicted of Manslaughter? He would have a five year sentence and be out in two. If you were to drive an automobile in a reckless manner, jump the curb and run over a pedestrian resulting in their death, a manslaughter charge could be expected with a similar sentence.

He was charged with 2nd degree murder, not manslaughter. The manslaughter option was the judge trying to bail out the prosecution at the last moment and would have been grounds for an appeal based on Zimmerman not actually getting a trial on that charge.

[rishaed]

show

I love how you dodge the maps, the other factual evidence that i displayed that showed that RACE WAS NOT a factor. Don't give that BS about how you did say racism wasn't a factor in your first post either.

show

After I firmly rebuke you on that, you instead insist I made race an issue. You freaking ignorant hypocrite. You would rather not accept the truth and dodge the question than accept what I wrote that had factual evidence behind it.

45. Did you ever hear any of the following facts?
Residents in the said gated community said there had been dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes
7 months before the incident a black teenager stole a bicycle off the Zimmermans' porch
5 months before the Trayvon incident two young black men broke into the house of Olivia Bertalan, Zimmerman's neighbor, while she was in the house. She hid upstairs and called the police while the two men tried to steal her TV. When the police arrived, they fled. One of them ran through the Zimmermans' yard.
The next month, because of all the burglaries, several residents of the neighborhood asked the neighborhood association to create a neighborhood watch and Zimmerman was asked to run it.
The next month, two more houses in the neighborhood were robbed.
3 weeks before the incident, Zimmerman spotted a young black man looking into the windows of a neighbor's house. He called the police and said "I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally." By the time the police finally arrived, the man was gone.
4 days later another house was burglarized. Witnesses said two of the robbers were black teenagers. One of them was soon caught with a laptop stolen from the house. He turned out to be the same man Zimmerman had previously reported looking in windows.
Zimmerman's black neighbor was quoted as saying "Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK? There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood. That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."
Many of the perpetrators of the prior burglaries and thefts were apparently never caught.

Now the definition of racism that you would have to use is the second one:
: racial prejudice or discrimination .[/i][/b]
The definition of prejudice can be inserted for the word so this changes to:
: racial prejudice, specifically: preconceived judgment or opinion or, : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge. or[/i] discrimination .[/i][/b].
Then we insert the definition of discrimination in here, because we have an or statement:
: racial prejudice, specifically: preconceived judgment or opinion or, : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge. or[/i] discrimination, specifically:b : [b]prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination> [/b] .[/i][/b].
Now based on the facts above I will say without a shadow of a doubt that racism did not play a factor. Why? Because Zimmerman had Just grounds thus ruling out prejudice, to suspect that Trayvon was up to no good. He called the cops, and after he lost sight of Martin did not follow him. (Why you no take survey and look at maps? Oh thats right, you don't want to admit that race wasn't an issue here.) In fact Martin, based on the evidence had four minutes to barricade himself in his fathers house and call the police himself. Space between the end of Zimmerman and neighbor's 911 calls. In fact his girlfriend testified that he said he WAS AT his stepfather's HOUSE. With 2-4 minutes out of sight I can go at least a /14-1/2 mile away running on foot, and there is nothing to say that Trayvon couldn't have either. So keep living in lala land.

[Juan_Bottom]

But what I really need to say is that your first duty in life is always to your conscience. Otherwise, you're almost the definition of a psychopath.

> that moment when juan realizes that most people's "consciences" are mostly the religious morals that they were instilled with as children

Well, I don't believe that, but I do know a lot of people who do. I believe that morality and empathy are part of evolution and cannot be dislodged by indoctrination. You can re-program someone, but that doesn't mean that they will be internally at ease with it. That wiring will be intact underneath. And this is something that I've learned through a crapload of reading, not from personal experiences.

culture itself is part of human evolution and influences our biology. you're correct that morality has evolved... but religions have evolved as (among other things) ways to express morality.

besides, i think the biological predisposition towards empathy is not as strong as you would think. the amount of influence a person's environment (as opposed to their genetics) has on their behavior is immense.

I can understand why people think this way, but I completely disagree. While I do agree with you that people are susceptible to influences over what they consider their moral philosophy, I still don't feel that those people who develop theirs from religion or whatever are anything more than a minority of the population.

Did anyone here see the CBS news story about the morality of infants? Fascinating. Absolutely fascinating.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50135408n

I started out with the opinion that the majority of people were basically good, but that their moral scale can be easily balanced in any direction based on their life experiences,
I mean,
that you can train a whole society of people to be raging psychopaths. But I don't believe that at all anymore.

[Juan_Bottom]

(1) The police didn't tell Zimmerman to do anything; they recommended he stay in the car. I really wish people would stop acting as if Zimmerman disobeyed a direct order.

1:40
Zimmerman: These assholes, they always get away.
2:12
Zimmerman: sh*t he's running

2:28
Police: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: yep
Police: Ok we don't need you to do that. (scolding tone)
Zimmerman: ok

In the audio you can hear wind, and that's how the dispatcher knew that Zimmerman was following him. To me, the police told him to stop following Trayvon. Earlier he said it was raining? It's impossible to tell why Trayvon would start running, but I would suspect it was because the rain started coming down harder? I don't see any reason for him to suspect that Zimmerman was calling the police on him. Or a reason to suspect that Zimmerman was a cop.

(2) Zimmerman was not guilty of murder because he did not have the requisite intent. He was guilty of something, but I think your beef is with the prosecutor probably. To put it another way, if he was found guilty of first or second degree murder, there would have been an appeal and he would have gone free anyway because the elements of those murders were not proven in trial.

I definitely have an issue with the prosecutor, and whoever let him/her prosecute the case. But still, the jurors could have convicted and let Zimmerman fight someone else for his freedom. They did have their options, they just did their duty to the letter of the law. I definitely see the intent to kill there, as Zimmerman was carrying a gun while chasing someone he thought was a criminal high on drugs.

I love how you dodge the maps, the other factual evidence that i displayed that showed that RACE WAS NOT a factor. Don't give that BS about how you did say racism wasn't a factor in your first post either.

Hey, chew your pacifier and calm down, jr. Since I haven't followed this case, I thought that the race issue was after-the-fact. Like people were outraged that another black kid gets gunned down and the law didn't care because he was black. YOU convinced me that it was, at least in part, a racially motivated crime. Zimmerman's female cousin, the one he molested, put the final nail in that coffin when she said that he didn't like black people who didn't act white. That's a very specific allegation that she made. Because she was being careful, deliberate, and honest.
But you're the one who explained that Zimmerman racially profiled Trayvon as a criminal. You can argue that it's ok to racially profile people, but it's still racist as f*ck all.
A cop can, for example, profile people while looking for a criminal on the day of a crime. That's ok.
But the cop can't come back a month later and start profiling people based on skin color. That's the definition of racism. That's what you said Zimmerman did.

Now based on the facts above I will say without a shadow of a doubt that racism did not play a factor. Why? Because Zimmerman had Just grounds thus ruling out prejudice, to suspect that Trayvon was up to no good. He called the cops, and after he lost sight of Martin did not follow him. (Why you no take survey and look at maps? Oh thats right, you don't want to admit that race wasn't an issue here.) In fact Martin, based on the evidence had four minutes to barricade himself in his fathers house and call the police himself. Space between the end of Zimmerman and neighbor's 911 calls. In fact his girlfriend testified that he said he WAS AT his stepfather's HOUSE. With 2-4 minutes out of sight I can go at least a /14-1/2 mile away running on foot, and there is nothing to say that Trayvon couldn't have either. So keep living in lala land.

You're repeating the facts of the crime (a lot), but nothing to exonerate racist motivations.

Ok, because black people commited crimes in the area, that is considered "JUST GROUNDS" by you to suspect that all black people in the area are criminals.
That's called racial profiling.
Trayvon was not witnessed doing anything wrong, other than "looking around."
But because he's a black kid, in a greater area where black people have allegedly committed crimes in the past, he's automatically a suspect?

"A map"
That's how you prove that someone isn't a racist?


So you think that Trayvon knew he was being followed? Or was running from Zimmerman?
Why would he be running from Zimmerman? From the audio of the video, it sounds like Trayvon would have just seen some dude sitting in his car talking on his phone. You know, out of the rain. And how is this evidence that Zimmerman isn't a racist?

[rishaed]

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html
This is the full, (FULL) 911 call from Zimmerman in text form.
And yes Trayvon knew, or suspected he was being followed. Thats the only reason why he called his girlfriend (who testified at trial) and said he was being followed, at which point she suggested that it might be a creeper. And yes he ran its in the 911 call from Zimmerman for Pete's sake. And his girlfriend testified as such.
And use common sense, you have burglaries going on in your neighborhood by young black men. You have someone, in your mind checking out the houses, walking real slow (in the rain no less) with his hand around the waistband.
And no it doesn't justify saying everyone in the neighborhood who's black is a suspect. Trayvon was a black youth ( Partial Matching ID) walking around in the rain just looking around?! (Suspicious Behavior) I mean who looks around (at houses) and walks slowly in the rain if all they wanna do is get home?
Source your quote on the cousin. Cause I've got plenty of evidence (sourced) to the contrary.
Lol on the map is how I prove someone is racist part. I went through with reasoning on how I showed Zimmerman had just cause and thus threw out prejudice. Now its your turn to try and prove otherwise.
The map shows that Trayvon had ample time to get away and not start a confrontation, assuming all facts are true, which at this point i have nothing to the contrary.
And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

show

When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion.

[spurgistan]

So you admit that being young and black made him look suspicious. Thank you. That's what racism is.

[Juan_Bottom]

^^^^^
Exactly.

And use common sense, you have burglaries going on in your neighborhood by young black men. You have someone, in your mind checking out the houses, walking real slow (in the rain no less) with his hand around the waistband.

I don't see this as suspicious behavior. I see this as someone who is probably lost. I do not understand why a hand near a waistband is suspicious either. That's where I keep my MP3 player.

Someone looking in windows or hopping fences is suspicious behavior. Hands near a waistband is a pathetic excuse to call the police.

And no it doesn't justify saying everyone in the neighborhood who's black is a suspect. Trayvon was a black youth ( Partial Matching ID) walking around in the rain just looking around?! (Suspicious Behavior) I mean who looks around (at houses) and walks slowly in the rain if all they wanna do is get home?

How about someone who is lost? Why does a confused-looking black kid just have to be a drugged-out criminal? He's confused, it's raining, you're in the neighborhood watch, you should ask him if he's lost or offer a ride.
Or how about instead he's just someone who likes to go walking in the rain?

That's not a partially matching ID.
A partially matching ID is when you are looking for someone immediately after a crime. Not days, weeks, or months later. That is definitely called racial profiling.

Source your quote on the cousin. Cause I've got plenty of evidence (sourced) to the contrary.

On the molestation- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

Her statements about racism
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/28 ... ion-audio/

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

That doesn't throw out racial profiling at all. "He looks black."
And you're the one who said this was about a bunch of black people committing crimes in the area.

When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion

He's not gonna call the police and say "hey come get this black kid cause he's black."
Even his description of "suspicious behavior" is pretty stupid. He's just... looking around... and it's raining... he must be on drugs....
That's coming from a dude who is just... driving around.... looking at stuff.... while it's raining....

Really to me it just sounds like Zimmerman wants to find criminals, and this is the best he has been able to do. Not a hero complex, but something similar.

The map shows that Trayvon had ample time to get away and not start a confrontation, assuming all facts are true, which at this point i have nothing to the contrary.

Why does he have to run away? Why is it his responsibility to run away? How about the guy stalking him while carrying a gun?
I don't understand your point. If Zimmerman is the one with the gun, it seems more prudent that he should be the one walking away from where the "suspect" is.


I found this very illuminating.

In one of the calls, made on February 2, 2012, about three weeks before Martin's death, Zimmerman told the dispatcher he saw a black man walking around a neighbor's home. He said he also had seen this man walking around the neighborhood on trash days.

"I don't know what he's doing, I don't want to approach him, personally," said Zimmerman on the recording.


In another call made in October 2011, Zimmerman reported two "suspicious characters" who were "just hanging out, loitering" in his neighborhood. When the dispatcher asked if he can still see the suspects, Zimmerman said no because he "didn't want to attract attention" to himself.

On these days he didn't want to draw attention to himself.

And I want to point out that this is about loitering.

But on this later day, he says "these assholes they always get away" and he stalks a teenager while armed with a gun? He cannot approach a guy walking around his neighbor's house, but he can stare down and stalk a teenager? This guy is a psycho.

And I want to point out he's stalking a teen who looks lost in the rain.

Jeantel says she heard Martin talking to Zimmerman in the background of the call.
"He said, 'Why are you following me for?' And I heard a hard-breathing man say, 'What you doing around here?'" said Jeantel.
Jeantel also said she heard a bump from Martin's headset hitting something and "wet grass sounds."

It's clear between Trayvon's friend's testimony and Zimmerman's phone call that Zimmerman was trying to draw attention to himself. Maybe even intimidate. And by saying "these assholes, they always get away" before taking off after him, that sounds to me like he was frustrated and taking new actions.
With this and the apparent racial profiling, I can see a clear line of intent. Maybe not the intent to kill someone, but certainly the intent to provoke a confrontation.

Zimmerman's mind
>Frustration over inability to catch any criminals
>Frustration that he cannot even find crime
>Black kid in rain - therefore must be criminal on crack
>Black kid is much smaller than loiterers, easy to confront
>Have gun, cannot lose

[BigBallinStalin]

So you admit that being young and black made him look suspicious. Thank you. That's what racism is.

Haha, you really thought that response out, didn't you?

There's nothing else contextual which matters, right?

Surely, you wouldn't presume such things about people you don't know, amirite? You'd never shove your bias into other people's interpretations of events--oh no, not you. Not to confirm what you already believe to be true anyway, that can't be what you're doing!

[thegreekdog]

Police: Ok we don't need you to do that. (scolding tone)

That's an order? That doesn't look or sound like an order. I'm not even sure that's a suggestion. It does make me wonder what would have happened had the police showed up. Would Martin have turned around and punched the police officer that followed him? I still can't get over that. Based upon all the factual data, the first reaction of Trayvon Martin to someone following him was to call his girlfriend and his second reaction was to punch his stalker in the face. My first reaction would have been to call the police. Maybe Martin was not a fan of the police, I don't know.

I definitely have an issue with the prosecutor, and whoever let him/her prosecute the case. But still, the jurors could have convicted and let Zimmerman fight someone else for his freedom. They did have their options, they just did their duty to the letter of the law. I definitely see the intent to kill there, as Zimmerman was carrying a gun while chasing someone he thought was a criminal high on drugs.

I'm not sure the jurors were fully aware of Zimmerman's appeal rights when they made their verdict, although I suppose they could have been.

I'm not sure I see the intent to kill. I'm admittedly inexperienced with this scenario, but I cannot fathom how a prosecutor could prove intent to kill based on the factual data that a man with a gun chased another man he believed to be high on drugs and a burglarer. If that was the standard, I imagine convictions would increase substantially.

Despite my lack of an affinity for police officers, I'm fairly sure most police officers don't chase a suspected criminal with a gun with the intent to kill the person. Are you saying there was intent to kill because Zimmerman was an Hispanic American?

So you admit that being young and black made him look suspicious. Thank you. That's what racism is.

Here is where BBS and I part ways. It is absolutely racist to suggest that Trayvon Martin looked suspicious because he was black. This could be ameliorated by context, but I suppose we don't like to acknowledge that context matters (rishaed's post some time ago lays all that out - burglaries committed by young, black men in the same neighborhood in a period of time). So the question is this (and posed in a different thread) - if Martin had been the one committing the burglaries and Zimmerman had stayed in his car and Martin had been arrested based on Zimmerman's racist suspiscions - are you okay with that Spurgistan? BBS? Juan?

[thegreekdog]

Zimmerman's mind
>Frustration over inability to catch any criminals
>Frustration that he cannot even find crime
>Black kid in rain - therefore must be criminal on crack
>Black kid is much smaller than loiterers, easy to confront
>Have gun, cannot lose

I agree. But second degree murder? Nopers. That's why I blame the prosecutor.

[Woodruff]

Police: Ok we don't need you to do that. (scolding tone)

That's an order? That doesn't look or sound like an order. I'm not even sure that's a suggestion.

I think it's a suggestion, but it's definitely a LIGHT suggestion, and I don't know how anyone could reasonably consider that an order. Certainly, the dispatcher could/should have been more clear.

My first reaction would have been to call the police. Maybe Martin was not a fan of the police, I don't know.

I would say that given his history, that's probably a reasonable assumption. He probably didn't really think that would work in his favor (and he's probably right about that...granted, the action he took didn't either).

I'm not sure I see the intent to kill.

Agreed.

[patches70]

Police: Ok we don't need you to do that. (scolding tone)

That's an order? That doesn't look or sound like an order. I'm not even sure that's a suggestion.

I think it's a suggestion, but it's definitely a LIGHT suggestion, and I don't know how anyone could reasonably consider that an order. Certainly, the dispatcher could/should have been more clear.

If people had actually paid attention to the trial, the question did come up. The police and the prosecutors all admitted that the dispatcher's direction was ambiguous. That is, it wasn't an order.

It wasn't even a suggestion. It was just something said that had no real meaning at all nor had any lawful justification to be required to adhered to. Hence the term "ambiguous" as admitted by the prosecutors. "Ambiguous", not the term I use, but the very term that the police, the prosecutors and how the jury understood, at odds with quite a few people here who even to this day still think it was a police order when it was shown without any doubt in court that it was not an order.

[BigBallinStalin]

So you admit that being young and black made him look suspicious. Thank you. That's what racism is.

Here is where BBS and I part ways. It is absolutely racist to suggest that Trayvon Martin looked suspicious because he was black. This could be ameliorated by context, but I suppose we don't like to acknowledge that context matters (rishaed's post some time ago lays all that out - burglaries committed by young, black men in the same neighborhood in a period of time). So the question is this (and posed in a different thread) - if Martin had been the one committing the burglaries and Zimmerman had stayed in his car and Martin had been arrested based on Zimmerman's racist suspiscions - are you okay with that Spurgistan? BBS? Juan?

To be clear,

"Being racist" means believing in the superiority of one race over another--based solely upon race.

"Profiling" using a variety of characteristics, one which can include skin color, cannot be correctly called "racist suspicions." (If Zimmerman suspected Martin of committing a crime--solely based on race and race alone, then I'd agree with your description of Zimmerman's activity).

"Profiling" may involve "prejudice," but prejudice is a silly word when taken out of context. Everyone is prejudiced even when it comes to trying new food, or getting a wiff of someone who smells bad. Very few can drop their expectations about others. So, even using a phrase like "prejudiced suspicions" would be silly. (I can't think of a way to correct the "racist suspicions" phrase).

So, with that aside, I'd still repeat what I said about profiling in your thread some days ago. And, if cops did it, or private security did it, I don't care--in that, it's not like cops have magical attributes which nullify their partiality or their potential racism/not caring about racism.

[thegreekdog]

So you admit that being young and black made him look suspicious. Thank you. That's what racism is.

Here is where BBS and I part ways. It is absolutely racist to suggest that Trayvon Martin looked suspicious because he was black. This could be ameliorated by context, but I suppose we don't like to acknowledge that context matters (rishaed's post some time ago lays all that out - burglaries committed by young, black men in the same neighborhood in a period of time). So the question is this (and posed in a different thread) - if Martin had been the one committing the burglaries and Zimmerman had stayed in his car and Martin had been arrested based on Zimmerman's racist suspiscions - are you okay with that Spurgistan? BBS? Juan?

To be clear,

"Being racist" means believing in the superiority of one race over another--based solely upon race.

"Profiling" using a variety of characteristics, one which can include skin color, cannot be correctly called "racist suspicions." (If Zimmerman suspected Martin of committing a crime--solely based on race and race alone, then I'd agree with your description of Zimmerman's activity).

"Profiling" may involve "prejudice," but prejudice is a silly word when taken out of context. Everyone is prejudiced even when it comes to trying new food, or getting a wiff of someone who smells bad. Very few can drop their expectations about others. So, even using a phrase like "prejudiced suspicions" would be silly. (I can't think of a way to correct the "racist suspicions" phrase).

So, with that aside, I'd still repeat what I said about profiling in your thread some days ago. And, if cops did it, or private security did it, I don't care--in that, it's not like cops have magical attributes which nullify their partiality or their potential racism/not caring about racism.

Generally, I find someone who looks "suspicious" to mean that I feel superior to that person (or that person is inferior to me, who does not look suspicious). Unless, I suppose, I want to look suspicious.

[john9blue]

thinking one race is more likely to commit crime doesn't necessarily mean thinking that the race is inferior.

one can be statistically proven, the other can't.

[rishaed]

And use common sense, you have burglaries going on in your neighborhood by young black men. You have someone, in your mind checking out the houses, walking real slow (in the rain no less) with his hand around the waistband.

I don't see this as suspicious behavior. I see this as someone who is probably lost.Lost enough to not only find his way to his stepfather's house, but also back to assault Zimmerman? I do not understand why a hand near a waistband is suspicious either. That's where I keep my MP3 player. Its also where people keep many other things, guns, knives, and other hidden objects.
Someone looking in windows or hopping fences is suspicious behavior. Hands near a waistband is a pathetic excuse to call the police.

And no it doesn't justify saying everyone in the neighborhood who's black is a suspect. Trayvon was a black youth ( Partial Matching ID) walking around in the rain just looking around?! (Suspicious Behavior) I mean who looks around (at houses) and walks slowly in the rain if all they wanna do is get home?

How about someone who is lost? Why does a confused-looking black kid just have to be a drugged-out criminal? He's confused, it's raining, you're in the neighborhood watch, you should ask him if he's lost or offer a ride.- See below you even quoted it where the GF heard Zimmerman ask, what are you doing here? At which point Martin could have said, I'm lost need to go here (if he was lost which i doubt.)
Or how about instead he's just someone who likes to go walking in the rain? that is the next possibility, but considering that you ignore just about 2/3 of what I write, and twist the other 1/3 out of context I'm just going to let it be.

That's not a partially matching ID.
A partially matching ID is when you are looking for someone immediately after a crime. Not days, weeks, or months later. That is definitely called racial profiling. Maybe for clothing items, but for things like age, race, height, and weight which can't be easily changed I didn't know they had an expiration date on being identifying factors when looking for suspects. Please, what is the legible timeframe such things can be used for

Source your quote on the cousin. Cause I've got plenty of evidence (sourced) to the contrary.

On the molestation- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

Her statements about racism
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/28 ... ion-audio/

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

Point taken.

And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

That doesn't throw out racial profiling at all. "He looks black."After the DISPATCHER asks for his race!
And you're the one who said this was about a bunch of black people committing crimes in the area. Stop twisting my words out of context. I was using the facts that robberies had been occurring in the neighborhood by young black teenagers to show that Zimmerman had justifiable reasons for calling 911. Following on foot was stupid on Zimmerman's part, as stated earlier.

When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion
And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
1st statement (Usually the reason that they are calling 911) Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
2nd Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
3rd Zimmerman: He looks black.See that word? Its an ADJECTIVE and is usually used when people are unsure of something. Otherwise a person would logically say, he IS black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing? Searching for ID'ing factors as with the previous question.
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...
4th (Description of justifying suspicious behavior) Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
5th(Usually people repeat things when they are unsure of it the first time.)
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion.

He's not gonna call the police and say "hey come get this black kid cause he's black."
Even his description of "suspicious behavior" is pretty stupid. He's just... looking around... and it's raining... he must be on drugs....
That's coming from a dude who is just... driving around.... looking at stuff.... while it's raining....

Really to me it just sounds like Zimmerman wants to find criminals, and this is the best he has been able to do. Not a hero complex, but something similar.yeah maybe he did, but maybe he just wanted to put a stop to the robberies in the neighborhood.

The map shows that Trayvon had ample time to get away and not start a confrontation, assuming all facts are true, which at this point i have nothing to the contrary.

Why does he have to run away? Why is it his responsibility to run away? How about the guy stalking him while carrying a gun?
I don't understand your point. If Zimmerman is the one with the gun, it seems more prudent that he should be the one walking away from where the "suspect" is.He did run away! And then chose to come back. In fact he doesn't have to but the least he could do is call the police?! for example: "Hello 911 I got a creepy guy following me near this address. Could you come and check him out? Dispatcher: Yeah we currently have units heading there, but stay on the line if you wish." What Trayvon chose to do instead was come back and assault Zimmerman, at which point he becomes equally if not more at fault then Zimmerman for his own death.


I found this very illuminating.

In one of the calls, made on February 2, 2012, about three weeks before Martin's death, Zimmerman told the dispatcher he saw a black man walking around a neighbor's home. He said he also had seen this man walking around the neighborhood on trash days.

"I don't know what he's doing, I don't want to approach him, personally," said Zimmerman on the recording.


In another call made in October 2011, Zimmerman reported two "suspicious characters" who were "just hanging out, loitering" in his neighborhood. When the dispatcher asked if he can still see the suspects, Zimmerman said no because he "didn't want to attract attention" to himself.

On these days he didn't want to draw attention to himself.

And I want to point out that this is about loitering.

But on this later day, he says "these assholes they always get away" and he stalks a teenager while armed with a gun? He cannot approach a guy walking around his neighbor's house, but he can stare down and stalk a teenager? This guy is a psycho.

And I want to point out he's stalking a teen who looks lost in the rain.

Jeantel says she heard Martin talking to Zimmerman in the background of the call.
"He said, 'Why are you following me for?' And I heard a hard-breathing man say, 'What you doing around here?'" said Jeantel.
Jeantel also said she heard a bump from Martin's headset hitting something and "wet grass sounds."

It's clear between Trayvon's friend's testimony and Zimmerman's phone call that Zimmerman was trying to draw attention to himself. Maybe even intimidate. And by saying "these assholes, they always get away" before taking off after him, that sounds to me like he was frustrated and taking new actions.
With this and the apparent racial profiling, I can see a clear line of intent. Maybe not the intent to kill someone, but certainly the intent to provoke a confrontation.

Zimmerman's mind
>Frustration over inability to catch any criminals
>Frustration that he cannot even find crime
>Black kid in rain - therefore must be criminal on crack
>Black kid is much smaller than loiterers, easy to confront
>Have gun, cannot lose

[GreecePwns]

So if I'm reading the pro-profiling argument correctly:

1. Accusing someone of doing something suspicious based on race alone is racism.
2. Seeing someone doing something suspicious, then adding in the race factor afterwards, is not racism.

[Night Strike]

So if I'm reading the pro-profiling argument correctly:

1. Accusing someone of doing something suspicious based on race alone is racism.
2. Seeing someone doing something suspicious, then adding in the race factor afterwards, is not racism.

Many houses had been recently burglarized, with several descriptions saying a black male was involved. A black male was walking next to houses, maybe looking in windows, on a dark and rainy night. Is it racist to be suspicious of that correlation?

[thegreekdog]

So if I'm reading the pro-profiling argument correctly:

1. Accusing someone of doing something suspicious based on race alone is racism.
2. Seeing someone doing something suspicious, then adding in the race factor afterwards, is not racism.

Many houses had been recently burglarized, with several descriptions saying a black male was involved. A black male was walking next to houses, maybe looking in windows, on a dark and rainy night. Is it racist to be suspicious of that correlation?

Yes it is.