Zimmerman vs. DMX - Boxing Match?

[kentington]

What if you saw a white person walking down the street in the day time and peering into peoples windows? I would say that is suspicious too. People shouldn't be looking into people's windows. Shoot even if it was a neighbor I knew lived in the area that would weird me out. However, I would suspect that he was just a pervert and try to find a way to stop him.

I took a late evening walk with a friend of mine I was visiting in between my travels. She lives in a big city, and we were in quiet suburbs walking around in the street and sidewalk. I am pretty sure we were looking into people's houses. We also saw lots of late night dog walkers because it was so hot earlier in the day.

Lock me up.


--Andy

Done you are now arrested. Perhaps a little clarification. By peering into windows. I am suggesting that they are on someone else's property, not the sidewalk, looking into windows. There is a difference. If someone walked onto my property and was looking into my windows I would call the cops and be suspicious.

[Woodruff]

Many houses had been recently burglarized, with several descriptions saying a black male was involved. A black male was walking next to houses, maybe looking in windows, on a dark and rainy night. Is it racist to be suspicious of that correlation?

Yes it is.

Can a black person ever act suspiciously?

Irrelevant question. thegreekdog is correctly pointing out that it is the behavior that is the question and that the race is immaterial to the question and that it is racist not to consider it so. He also points out correctly that it is somewhat understandable that folks would still consider race in those circumstances, even though it is tacitly racist to do so.

Correct. PS, j9b, and NS are absurdifying (copyright pending) my position for obvious reasons.

NS brings up very valid points with respect to profiling generally. Suffice it to say, it's a difficult thing for me to justify my stance on stops, seizures, arrests, and the like (in brief, I think the standard should be incredibly high and did not laugh out loud at NS's tongue-in-cheek list) as compared to my wish to remain safe.

it's not "absurdifying", it's showing what happens when your position is applied to the real world. anyone who takes action against a historically profiled race can be accused of being a racial profiler, regardless of what the person was actually doing.

the real tragedy is that, the more often one race gives people good reason to profile them, the more common these accusations of racial profiling against that race will become. so we end up letting more and more of them off the hook because of their race (and because racial profiling is supposedly bad) until we get real and admit that not all types of people are equal in every different way, and that racial profiling can be justified in some cases.

I'm going to go ahead and state for the record that I don't believe in any way that "letting more and more of them off the hook because of their race" is currently a problem in the United States. Sadly, just the opposite, I believe. I find the suggestion that this is currently a problem to be ridiculous in the extreme.

[Woodruff]

What if you saw a white person walking down the street in the day time and peering into peoples windows? I would say that is suspicious too. People shouldn't be looking into people's windows. Shoot even if it was a neighbor I knew lived in the area that would weird me out. However, I would suspect that he was just a pervert and try to find a way to stop him.

In Texas, that's probably a literal statement.

[john9blue]

anyone who takes action against a historically profiled race can be accused of being a racial profiler, regardless of what the person was actually doing.

This is an absurdifying sentence.

If the person against whom action is taken is, let's say, black, then you could not be accused of being a racial profiler.

If however, the reason you took action against the persion is because he is black, then you could be accused, rightfully, of being a racial profiler.

accusations aren't based on what you did, they're based on what people think you did.

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

[Ray Rider]

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

You may want to reexamine the facts, TGD. According to the transcript of the 911 call, Zimmerman only mentioned Martin's race because he was directly asked by the 911 dispatcher. Race wasn't given as the reason why he was calling at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying "Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black..." and "the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black." Unless you have some evidence to back it up, that statement is patently false. As PS pointed out, Zimmerman wasn't even sure at first if Martins was black ("he looks black").

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Okay, try this: flip the situation around. In a parallel universe if Martin was in the car, Zimmerman was on the street in the rain looking in houses, the situation played out the same with Martins calling 911, saying the same thing, and ultimately shooting Zimmerman; would you call Martin a racist or say that is the reason he reacted the way he did? I would most definitely say no.

[Juan_Bottom]

And use common sense, you have burglaries going on in your neighborhood by young black men. You have someone, in your mind checking out the houses, walking real slow (in the rain no less) with his hand around the waistband.

I don't see this as suspicious behavior. I see this as someone who is probably lost.Lost enough to not only find his way to his stepfather's house, but also back to assault Zimmerman? I do not understand why a hand near a waistband is suspicious either. That's where I keep my MP3 player. Its also where people keep many other things, guns, knives, and other hidden objects.
Someone looking in windows or hopping fences is suspicious behavior. Hands near a waistband is a pathetic excuse to call the police.

And no it doesn't justify saying everyone in the neighborhood who's black is a suspect. Trayvon was a black youth ( Partial Matching ID) walking around in the rain just looking around?! (Suspicious Behavior) I mean who looks around (at houses) and walks slowly in the rain if all they wanna do is get home?

How about someone who is lost? Why does a confused-looking black kid just have to be a drugged-out criminal? He's confused, it's raining, you're in the neighborhood watch, you should ask him if he's lost or offer a ride.- See below you even quoted it where the GF heard Zimmerman ask, what are you doing here? At which point Martin could have said, I'm lost need to go here (if he was lost which i doubt.)
Or how about instead he's just someone who likes to go walking in the rain? that is the next possibility, but considering that you ignore just about 2/3 of what I write, and twist the other 1/3 out of context I'm just going to let it be.

That's not a partially matching ID.
A partially matching ID is when you are looking for someone immediately after a crime. Not days, weeks, or months later. That is definitely called racial profiling. Maybe for clothing items, but for things like age, race, height, and weight which can't be easily changed I didn't know they had an expiration date on being identifying factors when looking for suspects. Please, what is the legible timeframe such things can be used for

Source your quote on the cousin. Cause I've got plenty of evidence (sourced) to the contrary.

On the molestation- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

Her statements about racism
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/28 ... ion-audio/

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

Point taken.

And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

That doesn't throw out racial profiling at all. "He looks black."After the DISPATCHER asks for his race!
And you're the one who said this was about a bunch of black people committing crimes in the area. Stop twisting my words out of context. I was using the facts that robberies had been occurring in the neighborhood by young black teenagers to show that Zimmerman had justifiable reasons for calling 911. Following on foot was stupid on Zimmerman's part, as stated earlier.

When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion
And Zimmerman didn't even label him as black until the dispatcher asked. In fact when the dispatcher asks he's not sure at first (also throwing out your racial profiling), and confirms later in a different sentence.
In fact here's the excerpt.

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. ...
1st statement (Usually the reason that they are calling 911) Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking
about.
2nd Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
3rd Zimmerman: He looks black.See that word? Its an ADJECTIVE and is usually used when people are unsure of something. Otherwise a person would logically say, he IS black.
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing? Searching for ID'ing factors as with the previous question.
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area...
4th (Description of justifying suspicious behavior) Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK...
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse...
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
5th(Usually people repeat things when they are unsure of it the first time.)
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


When the dispatcher asks initially he's not even sure about his race, just calling on the behavior. This is the nail in the racism coffin in my opinion.

He's not gonna call the police and say "hey come get this black kid cause he's black."
Even his description of "suspicious behavior" is pretty stupid. He's just... looking around... and it's raining... he must be on drugs....
That's coming from a dude who is just... driving around.... looking at stuff.... while it's raining....

Really to me it just sounds like Zimmerman wants to find criminals, and this is the best he has been able to do. Not a hero complex, but something similar.yeah maybe he did, but maybe he just wanted to put a stop to the robberies in the neighborhood.

The map shows that Trayvon had ample time to get away and not start a confrontation, assuming all facts are true, which at this point i have nothing to the contrary.

Why does he have to run away? Why is it his responsibility to run away? How about the guy stalking him while carrying a gun?
I don't understand your point. If Zimmerman is the one with the gun, it seems more prudent that he should be the one walking away from where the "suspect" is.He did run away! And then chose to come back. In fact he doesn't have to but the least he could do is call the police?! for example: "Hello 911 I got a creepy guy following me near this address. Could you come and check him out? Dispatcher: Yeah we currently have units heading there, but stay on the line if you wish." What Trayvon chose to do instead was come back and assault Zimmerman, at which point he becomes equally if not more at fault then Zimmerman for his own death.


I found this very illuminating.

In one of the calls, made on February 2, 2012, about three weeks before Martin's death, Zimmerman told the dispatcher he saw a black man walking around a neighbor's home. He said he also had seen this man walking around the neighborhood on trash days.

"I don't know what he's doing, I don't want to approach him, personally," said Zimmerman on the recording.


In another call made in October 2011, Zimmerman reported two "suspicious characters" who were "just hanging out, loitering" in his neighborhood. When the dispatcher asked if he can still see the suspects, Zimmerman said no because he "didn't want to attract attention" to himself.

On these days he didn't want to draw attention to himself.

And I want to point out that this is about loitering.

But on this later day, he says "these assholes they always get away" and he stalks a teenager while armed with a gun? He cannot approach a guy walking around his neighbor's house, but he can stare down and stalk a teenager? This guy is a psycho.

And I want to point out he's stalking a teen who looks lost in the rain.

Jeantel says she heard Martin talking to Zimmerman in the background of the call.
"He said, 'Why are you following me for?' And I heard a hard-breathing man say, 'What you doing around here?'" said Jeantel.
Jeantel also said she heard a bump from Martin's headset hitting something and "wet grass sounds."

It's clear between Trayvon's friend's testimony and Zimmerman's phone call that Zimmerman was trying to draw attention to himself. Maybe even intimidate. And by saying "these assholes, they always get away" before taking off after him, that sounds to me like he was frustrated and taking new actions.
With this and the apparent racial profiling, I can see a clear line of intent. Maybe not the intent to kill someone, but certainly the intent to provoke a confrontation.

Zimmerman's mind
>Frustration over inability to catch any criminals
>Frustration that he cannot even find crime
>Black kid in rain - therefore must be criminal on crack
>Black kid is much smaller than loiterers, easy to confront
>Have gun, cannot lose

Firstly, don't confuse the facts of what we know now with what the facts were as Trayvon and Zimmerman knew them at the time. If I see some black kid walking in the rain "looking around" while talking on his phone I'm going to assume that he's either unsure where he is (lost) or lost in his phone conversation. I am not going to assume that he's on drugs or that he's a criminal

All Zimmerman had to go on is this:

1st statement (Usually the reason that they are calling 911) Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...

Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

And why did Zimmerman assume that Trayvon had something to do with the burglaries that happened weeks ago? Because:

He looks black

He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

This is a crystal clear case of racial profiling.

And like it or not, there is a time limit on how long you can suspect that a person was involved in a crime only because of their skin color. You cannot arrest every Mexican-American who walks into a bank because 8 years ago a Mexican American robbed that same bank and got away. It's racist. And you're defending it. As the neighborhood watch captain, Zimmerman only called the police when he saw black people in the community. And the only black person he ever spoke to was Trayvon.


Trayvon did not come back with the direct intention of assaulting Zimmerman.
Reason #1 he was not armed as Zimmerman was
Reason #2 his girlfriend said that Trayvon yelled "Why are you following me" to which Zimmerman responded "What are you doing around here"

If I am going into a fight, I am at least going to have my pocketknife on me. I'm not going to use it if the fight is honest, but you never know. Yet Trayvon didn't so much as grab a rolling pin. Are you implying that Trayvon not only intended to fight Zimmerman, but also that he had sized him up and knew he could beat his ass? Zimmerman is at least twice as big as Trayvon was.

I wonder what Trayvon thought when Zimmerman yelled that back. I definitely would have felt threatened. Clearly, Trayvon could tell that Zimmerman was not a police officer, because he refused to identify himself. And also, he knew that Zimmerman had followed him, glaring the whole time. I wish I knew if he realized that Zimmerman had actually chased him behind the buildings when he ran away, or if Trayvon thought he lost him while Zimmerman was still in his truck, then doubled back to investigate.

[Juan_Bottom]

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

You may want to reexamine the facts, TGD. According to the transcript of the 911 call, Zimmerman only mentioned Martin's race because he was directly asked by the 911 dispatcher. Race wasn't given as the reason why he was calling at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying "Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black..." and "the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black." Unless you have some evidence to back it up, that statement is patently false. As PS pointed out, Zimmerman wasn't even sure at first if Martins was black ("he looks black").

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Okay, try this: flip the situation around. In a parallel universe if Martin was in the car, Zimmerman was on the street in the rain looking in houses, the situation played out the same with Martins calling 911, saying the same thing, and ultimately shooting Zimmerman; would you call Martin a racist or say that is the reason he reacted the way he did? I would most definitely say no.

Why in the flying f*ck are you people using this as an argument that Zimmerman is not racist?
What f*cking dumbass racist is going to call the police and say "OH COME ARREST THIS BLACK GUY FOR BEING BLACK, PLEASE."

I swear to the FSM that this is some 5 year old kid logic bullsh*t.

[patches70]

You guys should call the FBI and tell them about all this evidence that you think shows Zimmerman is a racist. The FBI did an investigation trying to find out if Zimmerman is a racist and they didn't find anything. But we know how the FBI half asses things, so your all's input might get the FBI to reevaluate their previous findings.

Good luck with that!

[Ray Rider]

All Zimmerman had to go on is this:

1st statement (Usually the reason that they are calling 911) Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a
real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can
give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or
he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking

Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or
sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's [unintelligible], he was just staring...

Zimmerman: ...looking at all the houses.

And why did Zimmerman assume that Trayvon had something to do with the burglaries that happened weeks ago? Because:

He looks black

He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

This is a crystal clear case of racial profiling.

Actually no, he was concerned because a guy was walking around suspiciously in the rain. Skin color wasn't mentioned until it was asked for.

And like it or not, there is a time limit on how long you can suspect that a person was involved in a crime only because of their skin color. You cannot arrest every Mexican-American who walks into a bank because 8 years ago a Mexican American robbed that same bank and got away. It's racist. And you're defending it. As the neighborhood watch captain, Zimmerman only called the police when he saw black people in the community. And the only black person he ever spoke to was Trayvon.

The green part I completely agree with. The orange part requires evidence or it will be dismissed as an outright lie. The red part is an outright lie.

"He and a black friend opened up an insurance office in a Florida..."
"He'd engaged in notably un-racist behaviour such as taking a black girl to his high-school prom..."
"Not only does he have black relatives, he has reportedly donated his time to tutor black children."
"He launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid."

Trayvon did not come back with the direct intention of assaulting Zimmerman.
Reason #1 he was not armed as Zimmerman was
Reason #2 his girlfriend said that Trayvon yelled "Why are you following me" to which Zimmerman responded "What are you doing around here"

If I am going into a fight, I am at least going to have my pocketknife on me. I'm not going to use it if the fight is honest, but you never know. Yet Trayvon didn't so much as grab a rolling pin. Are you implying that Trayvon not only intended to fight Zimmerman, but also that he had sized him up and knew he could beat his ass? Zimmerman is at least twice as big as Trayvon was.

Actually yes, I am declaring that it is very likely that Martin decided to fight Zimmerman, sized him up, and thought he could beat him. As a mixed martial arts fighter, who was admittedly proud of his fighting skills and had a track record of getting into trouble for fighting, who didn't know Zimmerman was armed, it was highly probable. The red part is an outright lie since they were less than 30 lbs apart in weight and Martin was taller than Zimmerman.

I wonder what Trayvon thought when Zimmerman yelled that back. I definitely would have felt threatened. Clearly, Trayvon could tell that Zimmerman was not a police officer, because he refused to identify himself. And also, he knew that Zimmerman had followed him, glaring the whole time. I wish I knew if he realized that Zimmerman had actually chased him behind the buildings when he ran away, or if Trayvon thought he lost him while Zimmerman was still in his truck, then doubled back to investigate.

Pure speculation.

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

You may want to reexamine the facts, TGD. According to the transcript of the 911 call, Zimmerman only mentioned Martin's race because he was directly asked by the 911 dispatcher. Race wasn't given as the reason why he was calling at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying "Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black..." and "the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black." Unless you have some evidence to back it up, that statement is patently false. As PS pointed out, Zimmerman wasn't even sure at first if Martins was black ("he looks black").

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Okay, try this: flip the situation around. In a parallel universe if Martin was in the car, Zimmerman was on the street in the rain looking in houses, the situation played out the same with Martins calling 911, saying the same thing, and ultimately shooting Zimmerman; would you call Martin a racist or say that is the reason he reacted the way he did? I would most definitely say no.

Why in the flying f*ck are you people using this as an argument that Zimmerman is not racist?
What f*cking dumbass racist is going to call the police and say "OH COME ARREST THIS BLACK GUY FOR BEING BLACK, PLEASE."

I swear to the FSM that this is some 5 year old kid logic bullsh*t.

Judging by your last two posts (my apologies; I haven't read all 116 pages), so far you've only given the argument more credence by your inability to refute it without delving into falsehoods and ad hominems.

[Juan_Bottom]

The more new information you guys provide over there, the more convinced I am that none of you have any common sense at all.

The green part I completely agree with. The orange part requires evidence or it will be dismissed as an outright lie. The red part is an outright lie.

"He and a black friend opened up an insurance office in a Florida..."
"He'd engaged in notably un-racist behaviour such as taking a black girl to his high-school prom..."
"Not only does he have black relatives, he has reportedly donated his time to tutor black children."
"He launched a campaign to help a homeless black man who was beaten up by a white kid."

According to the defense tapes, which were played in court to show other "just" times when Zimmerman called the police; each time;

a) always "suspicious" black people
b) turned out to be nothing
c) he was afraid to approach the "suspects" or attract attention to himself and so he waited for police

In one of the calls, made on February 2, 2012, about three weeks before Martin's death, Zimmerman told the dispatcher he saw a black man walking around a neighbor's home. He said he also had seen this man walking around the neighborhood on trash days.

"I don't know what he's doing, I don't want to approach him, personally," said Zimmerman on the recording.


In another call made in October 2011, Zimmerman reported two "suspicious characters" who were "just hanging out, loitering" in his neighborhood. When the dispatcher asked if he can still see the suspects, Zimmerman said no because he "didn't want to attract attention" to himself.

Therefore, the only black person he approached was Trayvon, whom he stalked while armed with a gun.

Furthermore, when asked his cousin (from whom Zimmerman is facing molestation allegation) had this to say:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

This is a very specific, and deliberate kind of racism. This is a well-articulated yet emotional accusation, which shows some consideration from his cousin, whom he molested.


█████████████

Actually yes, I am declaring that it is very likely that Martin decided to fight Zimmerman, sized him up, and thought he could beat him. As a mixed martial arts fighter, who was admittedly proud of his fighting skills and had a track record of getting into trouble for fighting, who didn't know Zimmerman was armed, it was highly probable. The red part is an outright lie since they were less than 30 lbs apart in weight and Martin was taller than Zimmerman.

At Zimmerman's weigh-in he weighed almost 50lbs more than Trayvon. And he was significantly shorter. You do the comparison. 150lbs does not sit the same on two frames, and because Zimmerman was short,clinically obese, and 50 lbs heavier, he would undoubtedly have the appearance of being twice as big as the tall & skinny Trayvon. Zimmerman weighed over 200 lbs while Trayvon weighed about 158. But these guys aren't weighing each other before they confront each other. With or without training, Trayvon would have been aware that a short stocky guy is going to grab a tall skinny guy and wrestle him, not box him. I'm just not convinced that Trayvon is that kind of stupid.
All boys are proud of their fights. It's part of growing into a man.
Zimmerman was training three days a week in MMA at a gym, so he had more experience fighting and 50 extra lbs to sit on Trayvon with.
And again, only a total idiot would intentionally attack a total stranger whom they knew had been stalking them without grabbing a weapon when the opportunity arose.

Trayvon had no juvenile record, and according to Wiki had never been in trouble at school for fighting. According to Trayvon's text messages, he avoided adults when fighting, and made it private. This fight doesn't fit into that known pattern.

Your story of Trayvon running home, then returning unarmed to attack a stalker that was twice his size just doesn't pass the smell test. Trayvon yelled at Zimmerman "Why are you following me!?"
To which Zimmerman replied with the threat "What are you doing around here!?"

What was said next we don't know, but that is when the fight happened. Something solid hit Trayvon's earpiece,
or you could also say that Trayvon's earpiece hit something solid,
and then they were rolling. Zimmerman was clearly provoking Trayvon, a point made clearer by the fact that he refused the logical invitation to identify himself. I suspect that Trayvon thought he was being followed by some kind of police officer, and then realized too late that he had made a mistake.
I "speculate" that Trayvon either thought that he lost Zimmerman when he ran, and was doubling back to see who was following him, OR that he could see Zimmerman behind his house and thought he was a racist cop staking out his home. Obviously someone who is innocent of crime and goes to confront the police is not going to pick up a weapon.


█████████████

Pure speculation.

Right after you say "oh yeah it makes great sense that Trayvon would want to attack Zimmerman."
Give me a break. Your speculation requires a burden of irrefutable evidence to disprove. Whereas my reasoned speculation is dismissible out of hand.


█████████████

Judging by your last two posts (my apologies; I haven't read all 116 pages), so far you've only given the argument more credence by your inability to refute it without delving into falsehoods and ad hominems.

You don't know what ad hominem means.
I was not attacking your preposition by attacking you.
I was ridiculing you for making such a dumb preposition. At the same time I also refuted your "logic" by pointing out the absurdity of racists calling the police and telling them that it's a racist call. It's like you just post whatever comes to your mind without asking yourself "where are the holes in my logic? Where would someone find fault with my thinking? Was the other guy trying to provoke me to think about something new, or did he say exactly what he meant?"
Try that more.

[rishaed]

Where would someone find fault with my thinking?
Trayvon yelled at Zimmerman "Why are you following me!?"
To which Zimmerman replied with the threat "What are you doing around here!?"

Umm... Right here?
Since when is asking someone what they are doing in the neighborhood a threat?
In that case I have threatened you to think by asking you questions quite a bit. So sue me, i'll win.
Is it so hard to admit that Zimmerman when he asked an unfamiliar person in the neighborhood, I mean you have to be facing each other to have a conversation, quite honestly wanted to know what Martin was up to in the neighborhood?

[Phatscotty]

This is just an issue with all the right ingredients that has been blown completely out of proportion in order to achieve emotional domination over certain types of people.

I would love if someone could find the video of Al Sharpton yelling at the top of his lungs and whipping a crowd into a furious frenzy within a matter of 30 seconds. And he didn't even say anything (not even hello) except for "I am TRAYVON MARTIN! No Justice no peace" and the crowd repeated it over and over again. Something that can help is that I know it was the one Geraldo Rivera attended, where people in the crowd started making threats against his life for being from FOX news. but threats on lives is not hate, not when FOX is in the room!

[Juan_Bottom]

Where would someone find fault with my thinking?
Trayvon yelled at Zimmerman "Why are you following me!?"
To which Zimmerman replied with the threat "What are you doing around here!?"

Umm... Right here?
Since when is asking someone what they are doing in the neighborhood a threat?
In that case I have threatened you to think by asking you questions quite a bit. So sue me, i'll win.
Is it so hard to admit that Zimmerman when he asked an unfamiliar person in the neighborhood, I mean you have to be facing each other to have a conversation, quite honestly wanted to know what Martin was up to in the neighborhood?

Fair question.
It's a threat because Zimmerman made it clear to Trayvon that he was stalking him. He told the police over the phone that he and Trayvon were staring at each other, and then he got out of his truck and followed him. When Trayvon saw Zimmerman he didn't attack him, he shouted what's known as a "right's challenge"* by yelling "WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME!?" This is Trayvon asking "what authority or right do you have to stalk me?" That was Zimmerman's cue to identify himself, his chance to diffuse the whole situation by saying "I am Mr Zimmerman, I am the neighborhood watch captain (his authority to check) and I've been following you. Do you know anything about such and such (his right to investigate)...."
But instead of taking the way out, Zimmerman shouted back "WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE!?" To me, and I think to anyone of color who knows that they caught a stalker in action, that sounds hostile, racist, and threatening. Even if it wasn't meant in a racist way, it still comes across pretty strongly like a cranky old racist guy has been following you. He made it clear to Trayvon with this answer that not only had he been stalking him, but also he had no authority or reason to stalk him.
ie you're in danger

*or at least it was known as a Right's Challenge in European Military in the 1600s. I dunno if we still use the term or not. I just recognize how people trying to avoid a confrontation behave a certain way. Zimmerman, either by accident or purpose, acted contrary to that.

[Phatscotty]

.... his chance to diffuse the whole situation by saying "I am Mr Zimmerman, I am the neighborhood watch captain"

is exactly the same as "I am Trayvon Martin, my dad lives in this neighborhood and I am staying with him"

[Juan_Bottom]

Trayvon didn't get the opportunity to say that. Zimmerman only vaguely identified himself as a threat. If he had said "I am the watch captain" then I'm sure Trayvon would have said something similar to that. Though, it certainly would have been a hostile courtesy.

What would you have thought if you were in his shoes?

[Night Strike]

Juan is one of those who sees racism anywhere he wants to see it, so it doesn't matter what the truth is in a situation. You can especially tell it's the case when he sees racism in a situation that the FBI has investigated for 18 months without seeing racism.

[Phatscotty]

Trayvon didn't get the opportunity to say that.

Where do you get this information?

If I were in his shoes, I would have said " "I am Trayvon Martin, my dad Mr. Martin lives in this neighborhood and I am staying with him."

[Woodruff]

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

You may want to reexamine the facts, TGD. According to the transcript of the 911 call, Zimmerman only mentioned Martin's race because he was directly asked by the 911 dispatcher. Race wasn't given as the reason why he was calling at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying "Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black..." and "the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black." Unless you have some evidence to back it up, that statement is patently false. As PS pointed out, Zimmerman wasn't even sure at first if Martins was black ("he looks black").

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Okay, try this: flip the situation around. In a parallel universe if Martin was in the car, Zimmerman was on the street in the rain looking in houses, the situation played out the same with Martins calling 911, saying the same thing, and ultimately shooting Zimmerman; would you call Martin a racist or say that is the reason he reacted the way he did? I would most definitely say no.

Why in the flying f*ck are you people using this as an argument that Zimmerman is not racist?
What f*cking dumbass racist is going to call the police and say "OH COME ARREST THIS BLACK GUY FOR BEING BLACK, PLEASE."
I swear to the FSM that this is some 5 year old kid logic bullsh*t.

Ah, so then they should take the fact that he didn't say something racist and conclude that he is...racist? 5-year-old kid logic bullshit, indeed.

[Woodruff]

Furthermore, when asked his cousin (from whom Zimmerman is facing molestation allegation) had this to say:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

This is a very specific, and deliberate kind of racism. This is a well-articulated yet emotional accusation, which shows some consideration from his cousin, whom he molested.

And that seems like a strong witness to you? Someone who might just have an axe to grind against him?

[Woodruff]

but threats on lives is not hate, not when FOX is in the room!

Sometimes you say things that you think mean one thing but which easily mean quite another. And you just don't get it.

[Juan_Bottom]

Furthermore, when asked his cousin (from whom Zimmerman is facing molestation allegation) had this to say:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

This is a very specific, and deliberate kind of racism. This is a well-articulated yet emotional accusation, which shows some consideration from his cousin, whom he molested.

And that seems like a strong witness to you? Someone who might just have an axe to grind against him?

Yeah actually, it does. It never ceases to amaze me how many people in this country blame victims for whatever happens. It's easier to accept this idea that an unarmed black kid is going to try to kill an adult that he doesn't even know, than it is to believe that an idiot child-molester was an aggressor with a gun.
Do you discount victims statements against their attackers because "they might have an axe to grind?" How do you say that to a molestation victim? "I don't believe you, you might have an axe to grind." She was forthright, and her story isn't extravagant or outlandish, so there's no reason not to believe her.

Her statement is clear, concise, and is explains exactly the type of racism that doesn't just "pop up" in a background check. It can also be easily covered up by family, who may just be the only people who would hear such prejudice anyway. And it also explains what happened that day better than anything else. If you live like a "white person" then Zimmerman is not going to exhibit any signs of racism towards you. But if you exist in another culture, he's going to have pre-conceived prejudices against you. At the same time, since he doesn't like those types of people, he doesn't have any friends who exist in Black Culture, so there's nobody close to him who can deny his story.
And why where the police called on Trayvon anyway? Because of pre-concieved prejudices.
All he was doing was walking down the sidewalk while being black.
Trayvon was walking in the rain, "looking around," and talking on a cell phone. Oh, and he "had his hands at his waist band." Only someone with prejudice would see that as suspicious behavior. There is absolutely no reason to stalk someone for doing that, let alone chase them while armed with a gun.

[Juan_Bottom]

Trayvon didn't get the opportunity to say that.

Where do you get this information?

If I were in his shoes, I would have said " "I am Trayvon Martin, my dad Mr. Martin lives in this neighborhood and I am staying with him."

It's not what the situation called for. Zimmerman told to police that he was stalking Trayvon while driving his truck in the rain, and that Trayvon knew it. Put yourself in Trayvon's shoes. It's completely logical that he would say what he said:

"WHY ARE YOU FOLLOWING ME?!"

But why would Zimmerman refuse to identify himself, and instead yell back:
"WHAT ARE YOU DOING AROUND HERE?"

At that point anyone would know that Zimmerman was not a cop, but a stalker, so only a complete moron would then say:
"Oh, well my name is Trayvon and I live here with my dad."

You just don't give your personal information to strangers who've stalked you.

[Woodruff]

Furthermore, when asked his cousin (from whom Zimmerman is facing molestation allegation) had this to say:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/1 ... 76729.html

I was afraid that he may have done something because the kid was black. Because growing up they’ve always made, him and his family have always made statements that they don’t like black people if they don’t act like white people. They like black people if they act white and other than that, they talk a lot of bad things about black people.

This is a very specific, and deliberate kind of racism. This is a well-articulated yet emotional accusation, which shows some consideration from his cousin, whom he molested.

And that seems like a strong witness to you? Someone who might just have an axe to grind against him?

Yeah actually, it does. It never ceases to amaze me how many people in this country blame victims for whatever happens.

You're going to have to explain to me how recognizing that Zimmerman's cousin might have an axe to grind is blaming the victim.

It's easier to accept this idea that an unarmed black kid is going to try to kill an adult that he doesn't even know, than it is to believe that an idiot child-molester was an aggressor with a gun.

It's called looking at the evidence objectively. You should try it...you MIGHT like it.

Do you discount victims statements against their attackers because "they might have an axe to grind?"

Do you believe that victims never trump charges because they have an axe to grind?

How do you say that to a molestation victim? "I don't believe you, you might have an axe to grind."

Where did I say that?

She was forthright, and her story isn't extravagant or outlandish, so there's no reason not to believe her.

Other than it goes completely counter to the evidence, you mean?

Her statement is clear, concise, and is explains exactly the type of racism that doesn't just "pop up" in a background check. It can also be easily covered up by family, who may just be the only people who would hear such prejudice anyway. And it also explains what happened that day better than anything else. If you live like a "white person" then Zimmerman is not going to exhibit any signs of racism towards you. But if you exist in another culture, he's going to have pre-conceived prejudices against you.

So what? I have pre-conceived prejudices against people with tattoos, people who smoke, and people who act like gangsters. It's impossible to avoid having pre-conceived prejudices. That's a far different thing from allowing yourself to act on them.

At the same time, since he doesn't like those types of people, he doesn't have any friends who exist in Black Culture, so there's nobody close to him who can deny his story.
And why where the police called on Trayvon anyway? Because of pre-concieved prejudices.
All he was doing was walking down the sidewalk while being black.
Trayvon was walking in the rain, "looking around," and talking on a cell phone. Oh, and he "had his hands at his waist band." Only someone with prejudice would see that as suspicious behavior. There is absolutely no reason to stalk someone for doing that, let alone chase them while armed with a gun.

The evidence points to Trayvon's actions being much more than that, of course. I know you think you've got to trump-up everything to try to support your side of the argument, but you're doing such a terrible job of it that you should probably re-think that strategy.

[thegreekdog]

In the instant scenario, Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black and looking in windows and walking down the street at night. I note the last two because if we just take them - here's a guy walking down the street and night and looking in windows - then we see that the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black. That's profiling due to a person's race.

this is worded in a confusing way. how do you know that zim took action due to his race, instead of the other two reasons?

You may want to reexamine the facts, TGD. According to the transcript of the 911 call, Zimmerman only mentioned Martin's race because he was directly asked by the 911 dispatcher. Race wasn't given as the reason why he was calling at all, so I'm not sure why you're saying "Zimmerman took action against a person because he was black..." and "the ultimate reason Zimmerman took action against Martin was because he was black." Unless you have some evidence to back it up, that statement is patently false. As PS pointed out, Zimmerman wasn't even sure at first if Martins was black ("he looks black").

Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department.
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near] Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

Okay, try this: flip the situation around. In a parallel universe if Martin was in the car, Zimmerman was on the street in the rain looking in houses, the situation played out the same with Martins calling 911, saying the same thing, and ultimately shooting Zimmerman; would you call Martin a racist or say that is the reason he reacted the way he did? I would most definitely say no.

The profile of those people committing the buglaries started or included the term "black." In any event, it is interesting that the race of Martin did not come up until Zimmerman was asked by the police.

[thegreekdog]

Trayvon didn't get the opportunity to say that. Zimmerman only vaguely identified himself as a threat. If he had said "I am the watch captain" then I'm sure Trayvon would have said something similar to that. Though, it certainly would have been a hostile courtesy.

What would you have thought if you were in his shoes?

Frankly, if someone was following me I would call my girlfriend, complain that some [insert homosexual slur here] was following me, turn around and punch him in the face and then beat his skull against the curb. What would you do Juan? Same?