Illegal Immigration/Invasion

[BigBallinStalin]

"So, again, how are we gonna ask for respect for our new looser immigration policies, when there is no respect for our policies now? What's gonna change that?"

This makes no sense (sincerely, I don't get it). Please explain.

[Phatscotty]

Most arguments against loosening of immigration restrictions fundamentally rely on a dislike for the foreign. It's largely an emotionally driven argument.

We get the current situation under control first if we want to be taken seriously on anything.

Emotions are not the only thing to consider

So if we balanced the budget tomorrow, would you consider loosening immigration restrictions?

Ummm, I'm talking about the current Illegal Immigration/Invasion, getting that under control, stemming the flow, getting the word out that we take our borders seriously, instead of being a total joke.

If we balanced our budget or even came close to it, yes, that would help us as well as people in other countries too. Nothing compares so badly as borrowing money we don't have and cannot repay; that is building a foundation on sand and it never ends well.

[Phatscotty]

"So, again, how are we gonna ask for respect for our new looser immigration policies, when there is no respect for our policies now? What's gonna change that?"

This makes no sense (sincerely, I don't get it). Please explain.

Okay.....

Do you believe illegals have respect for our borders and our policies at the moment?

[BigBallinStalin]

"So, again, how are we gonna ask for respect for our new looser immigration policies, when there is no respect for our policies now? What's gonna change that?"

This makes no sense (sincerely, I don't get it). Please explain.

Okay.....

Do you believe illegals have respect for our borders and our policies at the moment?

What do you mean? American citizens on a regular basis have no respect for policies like speeding limits or hiring people without eating the expensive costs of hiring (e.g. I hire a guy to help me work some lawn).

In other words, framing this issue in terms of "respect" doesn't clarify the issue.

(If you mean "respect to the law," then you'll have to explain how The Law is independent of Morality and Economics).

[BigBallinStalin]

[Gillipig]

He sounds like an immigrant, yup he emigrated, a very unbiased person you managed to find there BBS.

[Phatscotty]

"So, again, how are we gonna ask for respect for our new looser immigration policies, when there is no respect for our policies now? What's gonna change that?"

This makes no sense (sincerely, I don't get it). Please explain.

Okay.....

Do you believe illegals have respect for our borders and our policies at the moment?

What do you mean? American citizens on a regular basis have no respect for policies like speeding limits or hiring people without eating the expensive costs of hiring (e.g. I hire a guy to help me work some lawn).

In other words, framing this issue in terms of "respect" doesn't clarify the issue.

(If you mean "respect to the law," then you'll have to explain how The Law is independent of Morality and Economics).

So, you can easily conclude that Americans have no respect for something like speeding (highly debatable), but when it comes to illegals, everything gets complicated?

[warmonger1981]

Everything written by Alvaro Llosa has something to do with money. Money is all that matters the rest is a by_product. Or shall I say money can be made off each statement. Money son...it runs everything.

[Phatscotty]

I guess everybody has the right to move into BBS's yard, millions have the right to move into BBS's neighbors houses, millions have the right to already packed classroms BBs's children as well as all his neighbors children attend.

Interesting to wonder if this philosophy can co-exist with a concept of private property, forget the concept of American soil. Too bad for the rest I have already posted videos showing that for certainly some and I opine on first hand experience, more than some, IT IS welfare. It does impact wages, not to mention the net export of our currency which economically speaking; the more local the money is spent, the better. It most certainly in many cases is about an ethnic claim, which I've posted examples of also as well as direct knowledge from personal first hand experience as well. It most certainly does have an impact on security. Not the illegals themselves, not every single one, but of course there are criminals in the bunch, of course there are bad people who use our current policy and exploit it.

However, BBS has recently been making the case Immigration is a collective ideal, since he directly accused me of denying foreigners a U.S. revenue stream...

I guess whoever wants it can come get it. I'm sure the Conquistadors said the exact same thing.

[BigBallinStalin]

I guess everybody has the right to move into BBS's yard, millions have the right to move into BBS's neighbors houses, millions have the right to already packed classroms BBs's children as well as all his neighbors children attend.

Interesting to wonder if this philosophy can co-exist with a concept of private property, forget the concept of American soil. Too bad for the rest I have already posted videos showing that for certainly some and I opine on first hand experience, more than some, IT IS welfare. It does impact wages, not to mention the net export of our currency which economically speaking; the more local the money is spent, the better. It most certainly in many cases is about an ethnic claim, which I've posted examples of also as well as direct knowledge from personal first hand experience as well. It most certainly does have an impact on security. Not the illegals themselves, not every single one, but of course there are criminals in the bunch, of course there are bad people who use our current policy and exploit it.

However, BBS has recently been making the case Immigration is a collective ideal, since he directly accused me of denying foreigners a U.S. revenue stream...

I guess whoever wants it can come get it. I'm sure the Conquistadors said the exact same thing.[/quote

Hey dumb, dumb. Immigration restrictions prevent me from renting out a room to illegal immigrants or from offering them a job. I can't use my property or my money.

It doesn't follow that I'm forcing everyone to provide housing to immigrants.

[mrswdk]

A lady round my way got molested by some immigrants. I suppose BBS's calculations would deem her nightmares and crippling fear of leaving the house worth less than a nice, cheap Rogan Josh.

Welcome to capitalism.

[Dukasaur]

A lady I know got molested by some guy whose ancestors have lived here since 1820.

No group has a monopoly on crime.

[BigBallinStalin]

A lady round my way got molested by some immigrants. I suppose BBS's calculations would deem her nightmares and crippling fear of leaving the house worth less than a nice, cheap Rogan Josh.

Welcome to capitalism.

Sounds like a problem of policing.

Welcome to capitalism for private security and socialism for government-provided security.

[notyou2]

In the states they have security in the corner stores guarding the union made Twinkies.

[BigBallinStalin]

In the states they have security in the corner stores guarding the union made Twinkies.

Welcome to teh Fascist State.

[KoolBak]

Which states would those be? You know, twinkies just made their triumphant return from the grave, so perhaps that's not a bad idea.....

[Falkomagno]

Immigration is crucial to development of culture and society as a whole. The focus should be in having strong principles as foundations of every society, in the most basic things as respect for each other’s life and protection of the vulnerable (children, older, the sick) instead of blocking borders to avoid something that cannot, (nor should be) avoided

[Gillipig]

Capitalism has shown that it's not sustainable either, I wonder in which decade capitalism will disappear into obscurity.

[PLAYER57832]

The problem is that no everyone wants to move here for positive reasons. Many people actually (gasp) want to do us serious harm, to benefit their home country, to "defend" their religion (not referring to people seeking to freely practice their religion, but those who see opposing religions as a threat worthy of violence), or have more personal harmful intent (whether drug dealing, extortion, or merely to make a lot of money by polluting/paying low wages, etc.).

Point is, pretending that we should just open our borders up to anyone without any adherence to responsibility won't work. That said, there is a HUGE difference between people who are just coming here to work and people coming for other reasons, including to live here permanently.

Both you and Phattscotty don't seem to want to disintinguish between people's motives.

As a minimum, the huge influx of Mexicans and other Latinos has had a very serious impact on our society. Go all over CA and you will find people who feel their culture is being threatened or overrun by what is generalized as "Mexican" culture. In CA it is more poignant because it once was a Mexican territory. There are places where it is more common to hear Spanish than English. While that might seem OK on a culturally diverse front, it is problematic in terms of public policy and in being a unified nation.

There ARE many who will benefit from having a divided society, but that is not average middle class America. Previous groups came here to become part of the US, to become part of the culture. This new wave often wants nothing of that. That IS something to be concerned about. "Concerned" does not mean excluding out of hand, but it does mean that there are a lot of issue to be thought out.

[PLAYER57832]

Immigration is crucial to development of culture and society as a whole. The focus should be in having strong principles as foundations of every society, in the most basic things as respect for each other’s life and protection of the vulnerable (children, older, the sick) instead of blocking borders to avoid something that cannot, (nor should be) avoided

Except, your basic assumption is incorrect. Not every society has the same things as its foundation. There is a huge difference between, for example, the state of Israel, the state of Saudi Arabia, China, Russia and the US.

Its ironic, but in advocating cultural diversity, you are actually ignoring the very real and serious differences that exist. Frankly, I don't want to be any of those countries listed. I don't particularly want to be Mexico, either. Yet.. if we continue to allow huge numbers of those people to come without any qualifications, without any restrictions, then that IS what we will become. That is the real risk here.

[BigBallinStalin]

The problem is that no everyone wants to move here for positive reasons. Many people actually (gasp) want to do us serious harm, to benefit their home country, to "defend" their religion (not referring to people seeking to freely practice their religion, but those who see opposing religions as a threat worthy of violence), or have more personal harmful intent (whether drug dealing, extortion, or merely to make a lot of money by polluting/paying low wages, etc.).

No one is denying that all immigrants must be good.

Point is, pretending that we should just open our borders up to anyone without any adherence to responsibility won't work. That said, there is a HUGE difference between people who are just coming here to work and people coming for other reasons, including to live here permanently.

Who's pretending that everyone--regardless of criminal record or desire to work--should be allowed in place X?

Both you and Phattscotty don't seem to want to disintinguish between people's motives.

False.

As a minimum, the huge influx of Mexicans and other Latinos has had a very serious impact on our society. Go all over CA and you will find people who feel their culture is being threatened or overrun by what is generalized as "Mexican" culture. In CA it is more poignant because it once was a Mexican territory. There are places where it is more common to hear Spanish than English. While that might seem OK on a culturally diverse front, it is problematic in terms of public policy and in being a unified nation.

What's so great about nationalist arguments? Unification can easily be maintained by xenophobic policies, but... why do that?

I'm not that concerned about people hating on other subcultures.

There ARE many who will benefit from having a divided society, but that is not average middle class America. Previous groups came here to become part of the US, to become part of the culture. This new wave often wants nothing of that. That IS something to be concerned about. "Concerned" does not mean excluding out of hand, but it does mean that there are a lot of issue to be thought out.

That's doubtful. It depends on the changes in relative prices brought about by the positive change in immigration, which affects various labor markets and thus product markets. Do you think the average middle class American has benefited on net from the minimal restrictions on interstate migration?

[mrswdk]

A lady round my way got molested by some immigrants. I suppose BBS's calculations would deem her nightmares and crippling fear of leaving the house worth less than a nice, cheap Rogan Josh.

Welcome to capitalism.

Sounds like a problem of policing.

Welcome to capitalism for private security and socialism for government-provided security.

Yeah, the problem is that the police fail to turn foreign devils away at Arrivals.

Welcome to Miami.

[BigBallinStalin]

A lady round my way got molested by some immigrants. I suppose BBS's calculations would deem her nightmares and crippling fear of leaving the house worth less than a nice, cheap Rogan Josh.

Welcome to capitalism.

Sounds like a problem of policing.

Welcome to capitalism for private security and socialism for government-provided security.

Yeah, the problem is that the police fail to turn foreign devils away at Arrivals.

Welcome to Miami.

[PLAYER57832]

The problem is that no everyone wants to move here for positive reasons. Many people actually (gasp) want to do us serious harm, to benefit their home country, to "defend" their religion (not referring to people seeking to freely practice their religion, but those who see opposing religions as a threat worthy of violence), or have more personal harmful intent (whether drug dealing, extortion, or merely to make a lot of money by polluting/paying low wages, etc.).

No one is denying that all immigrants must be good.

Point is, pretending that we should just open our borders up to anyone without any adherence to responsibility won't work. That said, there is a HUGE difference between people who are just coming here to work and people coming for other reasons, including to live here permanently.

Who's pretending that everyone--regardless of criminal record or desire to work--should be allowed in place X?

The above quote. If moving is a right, then there should be no restrictions, though I will allow that we do restrict criminals within our own country, BUT the problem with immigration is that we lose those abilities and distinctions when we make the mere passage through a border to be an illegal act in itself.

Both you and Phattscotty don't seem to want to disintinguish between people's motives.

False.

Sometimes you have, but most of your comments lately do not. You lump all immigrants into one lump... only qualifying it later, when challenged. You even (as noted below) try to claim that interstate movement is somehow identical to movement between countries!

As a minimum, the huge influx of Mexicans and other Latinos has had a very serious impact on our society. Go all over CA and you will find people who feel their culture is being threatened or overrun by what is generalized as "Mexican" culture. In CA it is more poignant because it once was a Mexican territory. There are places where it is more common to hear Spanish than English. While that might seem OK on a culturally diverse front, it is problematic in terms of public policy and in being a unified nation.

What's so great about nationalist arguments? Unification can easily be maintained by xenophobic policies, but... why do that?

Again, you are mixing two concepts.

Politically, we need to ensure that the majority of people living here are vested in our political system. By that, I don't just mean that the majority cannot be criminals. That is a given. Its that if you have a large group without any stake, then you get even more of a "meism" society than today. JFK's "Ask not what your country can to for you, ask what you can do for your country" sounds almost like a joke today.. a joke or a tragedy. Granted, "Camelot" was a dream, a fiction that hid a lot of nastiness. Still... we saw a LOT of positive moves back then that have now been replaced by "I want MORE!". And, ironically, the ones steering that cry the most are those who benefit the absolute least. The Phattscotty's of this country cry a lot about personal freedom, utterly ignoring that they are merely puppets spouting the predominant paradigm that benefits mostly the very top few.

Immigration is not the only cause of that, but it is a big part. When teenagers going to a public high school in the US are chastised for wearing the US flag, it is significant. But more a problem is the number of times smaller incidents happen that don't reach the news. I hear about all this push to allow kids of illegal aliens to get college degrees, to obtain aid, and have to ask.. what about our kids? What about my kids and the kids of my neighbors, friends and relatives who have lived here all their lives, who's relatives have fought and died for this country.. why cannot THEY also get a college education, get loans without incurring so much debt things like buying a house, having a family would be dreams. College is supposed to open opportunities, not close them down!

Ethnically, it gets both more complex and more simple. The simple part is that if you have a people who cannot communicate, it is inherently a problem. Language is a very, very big part of that, more subtle cultural aspects matter, too.

The more complex part is that historically, we have an overriding paradigm. That paradigm is that we accept new people, who then become a part of our society, the overriding paradigm. Changes are relatively small and often subtle, or seem so at first. It is now rare to walk around California without hearing Spanish, to go to a market without seeing Mexican foods prominently displayed. I pick those superficial and relatively unimportant changes because while in and of themselves they are not negative, may even be positive, they represent a fundamental change in the population that is anything BUT minor and unimportant. I realize full well that the story of the "American Dream" and the immigrant who comes here, faces a hardscrabble road to benefit his/her children, is rather a myth. It always was partly myth, but today its more of an outright fiction or lie.

I have seen a change in CA, a significant change. That I see so much more evidence of Latino, but particularly Mexican culture, is not itself an issue, particularly given the strong roots between Mexico and CA. However, when that evidence is disdain for anything "Anglo" or "white" or even average American...then it very much IS a problem, in the US.

[I'm not that concerned about people hating on other subcultures.

You should be. You should wonder WHY that hatred exists.

As long as its just a few idiots.. Ye old ignorant KKK hater, then sure. Having them is just part of freedom, the ironic part of an overriding tolerance for difference. They serve to let us know "there we do NOT want to go!" However, when you see hundreds of average people across the west, when you see large segments of "middle America" toying with ideas that broach on racism or xeonophobia... it behooves you to ask "why?". Ignoring real issue and problems is the easiest way to see them fester into real and serious problems. In this case, I honestly think we are already at that point in many places, but even if that were not true, pretending that dissatisfaction is always just about idiots not seeing the whole picture is the surest way to become a fanatic yourself.

[

There ARE many who will benefit from having a divided society, but that is not average middle class America. Previous groups came here to become part of the US, to become part of the culture. This new wave often wants nothing of that. That IS something to be concerned about. "Concerned" does not mean excluding out of hand, but it does mean that there are a lot of issue to be thought out.

That's doubtful. It depends on the changes in relative prices brought about by the positive change in immigration, which affects various labor markets and thus product markets. Do you think the average middle class American has benefited on net from the minimal restrictions on interstate migration?

Interstate and international immigration are entirely different things. Only when we become one, unified, voting world will that comparison matter. Pretending otherwise is purely obtuse.

Regarding immigration, I think you need to step outside of your neat text book theories and catch phrases long enough to observe what is really and truly happening, what has happened.

It is no coincidence that the concentration upward to not just the top 1%, but even a portion of that 1%, has occurred exactly when we have gotten this huge influx of largely illegal immigrants. HOWEVER, its no where near as simple as saying "they are taking our jobs". Both you and Phattscotty have, rightfully, pointed out that immigrants historically take the jobs American citizens won't take. They work hard and make our system work. However, in recent years that has changed to illegal immigrants not just taking the low paying and unattractive jobs to taking truly skilled positions. Also, because they have traditional societal networks still, which most Americans no longer have, they are often able to pull together in ways that more long-standing Americans have not. My dad, an immigrant, got jobs in part because of the network of people from his country of birth. That network is only very marginally available to myself and my brothers. It is not really available at all to my children. Some groups still have those ties. The church of the Latter-Day Saints, for example, makes great bones to instruct members to help each other.