School Uniforms

[waauw]

When I moved from the UK (where school uniforms are compulsory) to a US school (where casual is the norm, with a few restrictions) I found it very cliquey. I'm not sure that the individualism argument really flies, at least in my experience. It seemed to encourage a more overt form of discrimination between students. Say, for example, between the kids who could afford whatever was currently fashionable and the poorer kids.

I support the idea of uniforms in schools. I find it sad that people would think that individuality is reliant on the clothes a person wears in general, but I like it even less as a principle encouraged in kids.

Even though it might create contrasts between certain groups in society(rich and poor), isn't that what society is like anyway? So why not let kids face eachothers differences and allow people to wanna be different.

[Symmetry]

When I moved from the UK (where school uniforms are compulsory) to a US school (where casual is the norm, with a few restrictions) I found it very cliquey. I'm not sure that the individualism argument really flies, at least in my experience. It seemed to encourage a more overt form of discrimination between students. Say, for example, between the kids who could afford whatever was currently fashionable and the poorer kids.

I support the idea of uniforms in schools. I find it sad that people would think that individuality is reliant on the clothes a person wears in general, but I like it even less as a principle encouraged in kids.

Even though it might create contrasts between certain groups in society(rich and poor), isn't that what society is like anyway? So why not let kids face eachothers differences and allow people to wanna be different.

Sure, but why make that divide inherent in the education system? It seems antithetical to the ideal (however unachievable) of equality of opportunity.

Plus, of course, few kids end up being different. More likely they conform to other, more isolated norms.

[Woodruff]

school uniforms always make me think the schools just want you to fall in line and obbey without questions asked

What's the uniform situation like in Belgium?

pretty much the only schools with uniforms are schools who used to be led by nuns or monks.
Although not all of 'm still demand it.

But what I was referencing to was that it resembles a whole lot to the the military, where collectivism is very important. Uniforms make everyone the same, making it look like everyone is part of one and the same giant entity, with no room for individualism. Even though capitalism is an individualist based society.

I am overall against school uniforms. However, one thing that nietsche mentioned that I think is relevant is the idea of kids not having to worry about "wearing cool clothes they can't really afford"...it does take some pressure off of that a bit, which is a good thing.

Aren't you a military man?
... and you are against uniforms?

What does my being a military man have to do with the idea of school uniforms?

Don't you think a uniform instills a sense of common identity and common purpose?

Perhaps a common identity. Not a common purpose, as far as a high school goes.

Do you think this might be helpful in areas where kids are exposed to some many negative outside influences?

How so? I really don't see how wearing a school uniform would affect negative outside influences at all.

[AndyDufresne]

I was never very fashionable in highschool, maybe school uniforms would leveled the playing field? However, one of the best things about not having uniforms was distraction in class and scoping out eye-candy, which was often more fun (especially in Mathematics). Trade offs.




--Andy

[saxitoxin]

I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.

[Symmetry]

I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.

The ban was introduced in 2004 (I think), and was fairly obviously non-secular in its intentions to target a specific religion. I'm not sure that constitutes a tradition, or even part of one that France should hold in esteem.

[notyou2]

Nope we never had school uniforms.

Even though uniforms weren't required, did you voluntarily wear your baronial uniform anyway?

Only on fridays, which I chose to make formal fridays. I was not very popular.

Are you really Alex P Keaton?

[betiko]

I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.

Exactly. And here in France Islam is over 20/100 of the population. It has nothing to do with islamophobia, you can t wear a Christian cross, a David star why would we allow head scarves? France, along with Turkey is one of the only countries built on laicity. A headscarf is seen as proselitism in a public school or any government facility. That s how it is and if you re not happy about it send your kids to a private school. Why would radical Islamists have the right to make us change the principles of our republic? Threatening us with terrorist attacks for living by our own laws in our own country? They can suck it up.

[AndyDufresne]

Okay, so this old youtube video expresses the uniformity, and that first in order to achieve such uniformity and synchronization, we must lift ourselves up collectively:



(I just liked the video to be honest).

Edit: Okay, I found another. This time, we don't need to lift ourselves up collectively, we need to all stand united together, on the same platform.



"But there's one gloriously stubborn metronome in the second row on the extreme right that fights the mob and won't conform. In fact, it cleverly chooses to follow the beat but in exactly the wrong direction...for a while NPR blog"


--Andy

[DoomYoshi]

I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.

Targeting "different" people and being reactionary are in vogue now, just as they have always been.

[waauw]

I don't think I have a problem with the French headscarf ban since France has a long secularist tradition going back to the revolutionary period. I would have a problem wih a headscarf ban in countries without that tradition, like the US, Canada or the UK, though. In those cases it would seem more targeted and reactionary.

The ban was introduced in 2004 (I think), and was fairly obviously non-secular in its intentions to target a specific religion. I'm not sure that constitutes a tradition, or even part of one that France should hold in esteem.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

This is one of the arguments used in my country pro laws of this kind.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

[thegreekdog]

Thankfully, the style when I was in high school was to wear crappy jeans, a crappy t-shirt, and a crappy flannel (thank you Nirvana and Pearl Jam) so I was okay in high school.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

That was pretty much the style I was wearing (still kinda do), but ten years too late.

-TG

[waauw]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

[thegreekdog]

That was pretty much the style I was wearing (still kinda do), but ten years too late.

-TG

For some reason, when I went to college in 1997 that style went out of style and I suffered immediate negative consequences when I didn't change my style.

[thegreekdog]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

Why? It's not like you'd have to wear a burka if you went to Iran... oh wait.

[jimboston]

What does my being a military man have to do with the idea of school uniforms?

Uniforms are a standard part of military organizations. I am sure there are many reasons why these have come to be so common. Certainly being able to properly identify friend from foe on the battlefield is a primary reason... but secondary reasons must include the idea that they help with training by helping to instill a common sense of belonging, a group identity.

I would assume (I'm guessing wrongly) that someone with a military background would see the benefits of a "uniform" in a setting where you are trying to train (teach) and would therefore (generally) be in favor of uniforms.

Perhaps a common identity. Not a common purpose, as far as a high school goes.

Common identity is the first step towards creating a common purpose. Also the discussion is about school uniforms in general... not necessarily only at the high-school level.[/quote]

Do you think this might be helpful in areas where kids are exposed to some many negative outside influences?

How so? I really don't see how wearing a school uniform would affect negative outside influences at all.

By creating a common sense of identity kids may be able to use this "new" or "better" identity to help avoid negative influences. Let's say in an area rampant with crime and drugs... I believe if you can get kids to "buy into" the idea that they are better off avoiding drugs, and you instill this value in the school... then kids can "band together" outside of school (on the way home, at the park, etc.) and help eachother avoid those negative influences.

It's not 100% guarantee here.. but it's not a completely bogus theory either.

[PLAYER57832]

I had to wear dresses to school until I was in 3rd grade, then a couple of girls came to school in jumpers the teacher thought were so cute the rule was changed. We could wear "slacks", but no jeans, etc.

When we moved down to southern Ca, the rules said "no jeans", but I saw that everyone was wearing jeans the first day. "Decency codes" were not really necessary, because no parent then would allow their kids to go out in anything that wouldn't pass anyway.

In high school, we started seeing real decency rules, but the style was "preppy". Mini skirts and so forth were things our moms would have worn ... definitely NOT what the teens were wearing back then.

My oldest had a standard "decency" dress code, but was derided in front of the entire class (in second grade!) for wearing one of those "aliens ate my homework, the dog ate my homework... " T-shirts. My neighbor's girls, however were allowed to wear miniskirts that would have shamed most in the 60's and midriff-showing shirts without any problem

My youngest goes to private, Roman Catholic school, with uniforms. I can get them used and wind up with a much lower bill for clothes, plus there is no question about what is and is not proper.

[Woodruff]

What does my being a military man have to do with the idea of school uniforms?

Uniforms are a standard part of military organizations.

I'm aware of that. <chuckle>

I am sure there are many reasons why these have come to be so common. Certainly being able to properly identify friend from foe on the battlefield is a primary reason... but secondary reasons must include the idea that they help with training by helping to instill a common sense of belonging, a group identity.

Certainly. I'm still not seeing the tie-in to a high school setting.

I would assume (I'm guessing wrongly) that someone with a military background would see the benefits of a "uniform" in a setting where you are trying to train (teach) and would therefore (generally) be in favor of uniforms.

If there is value to it that isn't greater than the problems it would cause, I would be in favor of it. I don't see a tremendous value to it, to be honest, outside of what I mentioned earlier about poorer kids being able to sustain against the peer pressure of "not having the cool clothes". That's really the ONLY benefit I see.

Perhaps a common identity. Not a common purpose, as far as a high school goes.

Common identity is the first step towards creating a common purpose. Also the discussion is about school uniforms in general... not necessarily only at the high-school level.

Ok. I don't see the significant value in it at lower levels of school either, and I would say it's actually a negative in a collegiate atmosphere.

Do you think this might be helpful in areas where kids are exposed to some many negative outside influences?

How so? I really don't see how wearing a school uniform would affect negative outside influences at all.

By creating a common sense of identity kids may be able to use this "new" or "better" identity to help avoid negative influences. Let's say in an area rampant with crime and drugs... I believe if you can get kids to "buy into" the idea that they are better off avoiding drugs, and you instill this value in the school... then kids can "band together" outside of school (on the way home, at the park, etc.) and help eachother avoid those negative influences.

Honestly, I'm still not seeing how school uniforms would relate to helping kids feel less pressure to try druges than they would otherwise.

It's not 100% guarantee here.. but it's not a completely bogus theory either.

I don't mean to say it's a bogus theory. But I'm not understanding at all how the school uniforms would make any difference at all in that aspect of things.

[PLAYER57832]

Do you think this might be helpful in areas where kids are exposed to some many negative outside influences?

How so? I really don't see how wearing a school uniform would affect negative outside influences at all.

By creating a common sense of identity kids may be able to use this "new" or "better" identity to help avoid negative influences. Let's say in an area rampant with crime and drugs... I believe if you can get kids to "buy into" the idea that they are better off avoiding drugs, and you instill this value in the school... then kids can "band together" outside of school (on the way home, at the park, etc.) and help eachother avoid those negative influences.

It's not 100% guarantee here.. but it's not a completely bogus theory either.

The issue is really much more practical. Kids get into too many fights over clothing in those areas -- either kids with nicer clothes get them taken (literally, of their backs sometimes) or certain clothes/colors/symbols indicate gang membership.

When this is not the case, you still have kids being ostracized for not wearing the "right" clothes, as several have mentioned above.

The identity bit is tricky. it does work, but to work requires a different uniform than others might have, pride, etc. It works better with smaller groups. In school, things like mascots and such can do the same thing if that is the goal. But, the problem is that if you start mandating uniforms in a require setting like school, then some kids just plain rebel and maybe defeat the whole purpose.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

'cept that customs change over time, especially with the influx of immigrant cultures. Same with language, beliefs, etc.

-TG

[Symmetry]

I was one of the poor kids who had clothes from the Goodwill. I wished we had uniforms.

I agree the situation in France seems to have turned a bit into a phobia, however there is also a matter of politeness. It is considered as polite to remove ones head coverage in class. So if society would allow burka's in schools, how could it still forbid other youngsters to wear caps in class.

It's considered polite in our society, not necessarily a Muslim one.

-TG

if muslims come to France they should expect French social standards

'cept that customs change over time, especially with the influx of immigrant cultures. Same with language, beliefs, etc.

-TG

Plus, of course, it was France that came to the Muslims. The majority of Muslims living in France are from, or descended from countries that were once considered French.

[betiko]

You are mixing up everything. Adapting to incomming cultures is for example to make pork free menus for lunch so that muslims and jews can eat what they are allowed to eat.
The separation of state and church is a pretty important thing in french society. A president saying "god bless france" would be a huge scandal. This is just how our institutions are, so if you are french and muslim you are supposed to be french before muslim. Laws here are french laws, or should we now adapt our laws to charia laws? Like you are not allowed to sacrifice a lamb in your bathtub as it's seen as animal crualty. Being a citizen is just like being the tenant of an apartment. No smoking and no pets? well, if you don't like it take another apartment, you know from the start the rules. You know that if you smoke you'll get in trouble with the landlord.

[PLAYER57832]

You are mixing up everything. Adapting to incomming cultures is for example to make pork free menus for lunch so that muslims and jews can eat what they are allowed to eat.
The separation of state and church is a pretty important thing in french society. A president saying "god bless france" would be a huge scandal. This is just how our institutions are, so if you are french and muslim you are supposed to be french before muslim. Laws here are french laws, or should we now adapt our laws to charia laws? Like you are not allowed to sacrifice a lamb in your bathtub as it's seen as animal crualty. Being a citizen is just like being the tenant of an apartment. No smoking and no pets? well, if you don't like it take another apartment, you know from the start the rules. You know that if you smoke you'll get in trouble with the landlord.

Why is it OK to say restaurants should serve pork free menus and that animal sacrafice is wrong, but not OK to say that girls cannot be hidden behind burkas?

Oh, and per the "animal sacrifice is torture" bit... you are misinformed. It is no more tortuous in most cases to kill an animal in sacrifice than to kill it for food. In fact, most religions are pretty specific about not causing pain. Such rules are really among the worst of back-handed discrimination moves, based on complete ignorance and the demand that others follow the mores of a few without those few bothering to investigate if their claims (such as of cruelty) are really true.