Who killed Kennedy? (Official CC 50th Anniversary Thread)

[BigBallinStalin]

Sax, what's the modern day version of Bureau of Security?

And what's a good history book about it?

[saxitoxin]

Sax, what's the modern day version of Bureau of Security?

And what's a good history book about it?

1 - I don't know. SY was gutted in the mid-80s and reformed as a security service for embassies (the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Presumably what Dr. Morgentheau described as its "secret police" functions are now being handled by some other agency, maybe an agency without a name.

2- IDK if there are any books on it

[Baron Von PWN]

Krushchev in the ballroom with the lampshade.

[BigBallinStalin]

Sax, what's the modern day version of Bureau of Security?

And what's a good history book about it?

1 - I don't know. SY was gutted in the mid-80s and reformed as a security service for embassies (the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Presumably what Dr. Morgentheau described as its "secret police" functions are now being handled by some other agency, maybe an agency without a name.

2- IDK if there are any books on it

So, here's a crazy-looking book which mentions Morgenthau and the "Bureau of Security":

The Road to 9 11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America

(google "gen rus lib" for a very useful book viewer).

In 1955 the notion of a dual state was transferred from totalitarian states to America, by the distinguished political scientist Hans Morgenthau, another refugee from Nazi Germany. Criticizing the paranoid purges of the State Department by bureaucratic allies of Senator Joseph McCarthy, Morgenthau deplored that the “authorities charged by law” with making decisions had effectively been subordinated to a hostile right-wing Bureau of Security within the department, which exerted “an effective veto over the decisions” of the former.38

from Chapter 14

fn38:

38. Hans J. Morgenthau, Politics in the Twentieth Century, volume 1, The Decline of Democratic Politics (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1962), 400. (This article, “The Corruption of Patriotism,” was first published in 1955 in the New Republic and in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists.) Morgenthau rightly did not attribute the Security Bureau’s power to the overworld, but to the demagogy of the “Senator and his friends in Congress.” But today we can see more clearly how McCarthyism as a phenomenon first began inside the Office of Strategic Services and was originally encouraged by Wall Street Republicans, who were determined to cleanse America’s bureaucracies of the last remnants of Roosevelt’s New Deal.

Meh... google doesn't turn up anything specific with "bureau of security"--unless they moved to California (link).

I bought Morganthau's 3-volume set for $4.00 (competitors were selling at $60-$200, lol), so it should be good bedtime reading. This strand of thinking is interesting (most of it may be garbage--not Morgenthau, but conspiracy theory in general). It looks like a good road for modeling social change within governments; there is such a story in the US from 1920s throughout the 1940s, and then another change in the post-war phase as the New Dealers were getting thrown out. A closer inspection is warranted, and maybe Morgenthau points to some relevant variables in the puzzle.

[_sabotage_]

BBS, stay away from the light...

[mrswdk]

It was the British. They had been pissed ever since the Suez Incident and were infuriated when JFK pushed for the Nassau Agreement to try and further undermine the UK's ability to act independently on the world stage. They were worried that JFK would continue to act against their national sovereignty, and so a pair of BBC journalists approached Oswald in Minsk on behalf of the Foreign Office. He was persuaded to return to the US and assassinate the president.

[oVo]

“Historically, syphilis is right up there with other half-cocked theories. It wiped out the Romanovs. It decimated our fleet at Pearl Harbor, and of course, Fidel Castro impersonated Marilyn Monroe and gave President Kennedy a case of syphilis so severe that eventually it blew the back of his head off.”

Pubic Disclaimer: this was found on the web and is not my original writing.

[saxitoxin]

Don't they have libraries in the Cordon Bleu Parish swamp or wherever you're at, BBS?!?

Here's the full citation:

MORGENTHAU, HANS "Government Administration and Security" Current History. 29:170 (1955:Oct.) p. 210

Basically this is a specific example he uses to evidence his larger theory of the "dual state" ...

- in democratic societies there have evolved a "legal state" and a "security state" (power state)
- the legal state is a "government of alternatives" (democratic choice)
- the security state is dormant and activates itself when no alternatives exist (e.g. any action other than "X" will result in the destruction of the state); if there are no alternatives then there is no capacity for democratic action since the people can't vote the state out of existence either intentionally or through incompetent voting, therefore any action taken by the security state - even in contradiction of the constitution - is justified by the law of necessity

SY in 1955 is incidental, they would just be muscle for the security state, but not the state itself. The security state may not be a formal entity, it may spring into existence when needed, though it probably has had some continuing form since the start of the permanent emergency in 1949. Morgenthau says in 1955 it exists among a junta in the Senate.

[BigBallinStalin]

Dude, $4.00 deal for a book priced between $60-$200 or so? I'm down.

So, to add credence/clarity to Morgenthau's position, at what times have the 'junta' acted explicitly and who exactly were members of the junta at those times?

My concern is that if the framework is too broad, then the analyst can mislabel several instances and members as confirming the junta, thus the existence of 'security state'/deep state.

[saxitoxin]

So, to add credence/clarity to Morgenthau's position, at what times have the 'junta' acted explicitly and who exactly were members of the junta at those times?

Well now how would I answer that?!

Dr. Morgenthau analyzes identifiable forces and arrives at a general conclusion that "X" exists. Anything more specific than that is conspiracy-mongering or story telling. (We know the Higgs-Boson particle exists but we've never seen it and can't explain exactly how it works.)

[clangfield]

It was the British. They had been pissed ever since the Suez Incident and were infuriated when JFK pushed for the Nassau Agreement to try and further undermine the UK's ability to act independently on the world stage. They were worried that JFK would continue to act against their national sovereignty, and so a pair of BBC journalists approached Oswald in Minsk on behalf of the Foreign Office. He was persuaded to return to the US and assassinate the president.

We don't do that sort of thing over here - not cricket, you know!
There's an outside possibility that someone in the Philby/ Burgess/Maclean/Blunt/Cairncross spyring, with their Soviet leanings, might have had a hand in it, but it would never have been done officially. They were too worried about Soviet influence at the time, dealing with the aftermath of the Profumo affair and a new Prime Minister wouldn't have had time to organise it.

[Symmetry]

[BigBallinStalin]

So, to add credence/clarity to Morgenthau's position, at what times have the 'junta' acted explicitly and who exactly were members of the junta at those times?

Well now how would I answer that?!

Dr. Morgenthau analyzes identifiable forces and arrives at a general conclusion that "X" exists. Anything more specific than that is conspiracy-mongering or story telling. (We know the Higgs-Boson particle exists but we've never seen it and can't explain exactly how it works.)

Well, that's not a very satisfying theory.

[ManBungalow]

The Tea Party...

[DoomYoshi]

Just like 9/11, it was done by the french.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/art-books/camus-sartre-fbi-hoover/#.Uo1Jrmt5mSN

[_sabotage_]

Bush is French... I should have known. Well, an assassination, 9-11 and now they want Jeb as president. Dante didn't get deep enough to see a Bush.

[oVo]

Will we ever really know the truth?

So many stories recounting the events of that day; and one of the first thing that stands out to me is a "witness" on Dealy Plaza giving a description of a "suspect" that they observed in the "sixth floor window" which accurately describes Oswald. This description includes facial features and approximate height & weight.

A second "witness" in Oak Cliff --where Oswald was apprehended-- identifies Oswald from his view in the rear view mirror of his car after police officer Tippit has been shot.

The Police "announce" when the suspect will be moved and even though this event is delayed an hour, Jack Ruby arrives just in time to walk directly up to Oswald and shoot him.

So much inept detective work destroying evidence and still the police manage to capture the accused perpetrator about an hour after the shooting of the President.

[Dukasaur]

What a stupid poll. The only credible suspect isn't on it.

If you read any serious JFK scholars, it becomes crystal clear that JFK was killed by Cosa Nostra hitmen acting on orders from mob boss Carlos Marcello. All other theories have huge holes in them and require massive leaps of faith to bridge the gaps. The Marcello theory is the only one that is both internally and externally consistent.

[oVo]

Seems like the magic bullet and Oswald were both leaps of faith from a government that wanted a quick and tidy resolution to this event.

[mrswdk]

They didn't want the embarrassment of acknowledging that the British - their 'closest ally' - resented the president so much that they were prepared to resort to assassination. The Cold War required political solidarity. The big boys of the Establishment snubbed out the precocious newcomer and carried on as before.

[saxitoxin]

What a stupid poll. The only credible suspect isn't on it.

If you read any serious JFK scholars, it becomes crystal clear that JFK was killed by Cosa Nostra hitmen acting on orders from mob boss Carlos Marcello. All other theories have huge holes in them and require massive leaps of faith to bridge the gaps. The Marcello theory is the only one that is both internally and externally consistent.

OK, I just bing-dot-commed Carlos Marcello and that seems to be pretty compelling. Especially how the Warren Commission concluded he was a tomato salesman ... which seems to cast a little bit of doubt on the entire competence of the Warren Commission.

[saxitoxin]

With all the non-stop news today on the anniversary, does anyone think it's a little much? It's been 50 years, is this kind of protracted mourning necessary for a president who was in office less than 3 years?

Did William McKinley get this kind of treatment in 1951?

[oVo]

Only 1/3 of the Americans alive today were living when the president was shot. So a lot of this might be new to a lot of people. Of course if there had been this much research done fifty years ago we might actually know exactly what happened on November 22, 1963.

[BigBallinStalin]

With all the non-stop news today on the anniversary, does anyone think it's a little much? It's been 50 years, is this kind of protracted mourning necessary for a president who was in office less than 3 years?

Did William McKinley get this kind of treatment in 1951?

He married Ida Saxton, a word which closely resembles Saxitoxin. I suspect that William McKinley was assassinated by his wife, Ida Saxton, who later assumed the name "saxitoxin" in order to avoid further investigations into her husband's mysterious death. The motive for his death was of course led by the proto-Federal Reserve, whose supporters sought a removal of the gold standard in favor of expansionary monetary policy as a subvert means for taxation. This movement was led by Aaron Burr, who founded the Bank of the Manhattan Company, which later became JP Morgan's Chase Bank.

Having realized that McKinley was nonplussed about expansionary monetary policy, Aaron Burr along with his Illuminati followers and with members of the Secret Secret Masonic Society proposed a plan to McKinley's wife, Ida, which she could not refuse. Upon President McKinley's death, she was handsomely rewarded by the Will as well as by favorable mortgage rates from the Bank of the Manhattan Company and enjoyed special privileges in both the Masonic and Illuminati Societies--including a two-way trip plus Luxurious Hotel within Vatican City.

Having imbibed the a cup from the Illuminati's personal Fountain of Youth, Ida Saxton lived a long and prosperous life until 20 years ago she grew tired of the easy living. She decided to study mass communications, earning a Bachelor's as well as a Masters in the subject. One fortunate day, she discovered conquerclub.com where she mercilessly trolls the populace with her well-spun depictions of political affairs--all of which is funded by the Illuminating Modern Masons Incorporated--a name which was born through the Illuminati-Masonic merger of 1997 during the dot-com boom.

[BigBallinStalin]

With all the non-stop news today on the anniversary, does anyone think it's a little much? It's been 50 years, is this kind of protracted mourning necessary for a president who was in office less than 3 years?

Did William McKinley get this kind of treatment in 1951?

C'mon. You know why this story sells. There's so many conspiracy theories because so little has been released by government--and so much data from the event are exploitable to any theory. Without any means for verifying/confirming any hypotheses--due to the limited scope of our knowledge and of logic, then it follows that many entertaining stories will develop in order to explain the event. Many of these stories have captivated the imaginations of Americans, thus the story will continue to sell--until the older generations die out, thus the demand for it shrinks. Eventually, we'll be left with stories of Princess Di's death/murder, the Cheney-Bush-Atwater story, 9-11, and many more to come!