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Why democracy is failing America

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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:17 pm

mrswdk wrote:Phatscotty's argument appeared to hinge on the idea that a larger government undermines 'democracy' by increasing the number of areas in which government agents have the power to rent seek. His answer is to reduce the number of things that the government has control over.

My question is: does reducing government authority and responsibility in various areas of society decrease the scale of corruption and rent-seeking overall, or would it just shift it from within the government to non-government hands?

With regards to your point, tgd, do you have any particular examples of areas where you feel the private sector could do what the government does but without using as many resources?


Reducing government authority and responsibility shifts rent-seeking and corruption from government to non-government. I think that's a safe assumption to make (although, inb4 BigBallinStalin rage).

I'll use a simple example for government vs. private sector. The US Postal Service vs. Federal Express, etc. I personally think the US Postal Service does a fine job, but that's not the issue. The issue is that the US Postal Service is an arm of the government and is thus subject to the various bureaucracies of the government. Further, the purpose of the US Postal Service is not to reduce costs. In fact, there is a disincentive for the US Postal Service to decrease costs. There is an incentive for Federal Express to reduce costs, else it will go out of business.

A less simple example is the inefficacy of the SEC. I'll let others, who understand better, to explain that. How has the SEC helped US citizens when the people that work there (and are paid by taxpayers) favor rent-seekers (or are rent-seekers themselves)? Okay, let's assume the Dodd-Frank Act was awesome... it's "enforced" by executive branch regulatory bodies and is thus subject to rent-seeking. But let's say we have a moderately effective SEC. Is what we're getting from the SEC (moderate effectiveness at best with bureaucratic costs) better than what we would get without the SEC (no effectiveness, no bureaucratic costs)?

Ultimately, one would assume the purpose of any government-created/organized/run entity is to service the citizens in ways that the private sector can't or won't. So when we talk about an exchange of tax dollars for a service, that makes sense (logically... again inb4 BigBallinStalin rage). The reality, however, is that there is rent-seeking (so private companies can exert control over a system or organization over which they should not have control) and there is a cost associated with government bodies. The cost is never examined and compared to the efficacy of the system. If something is broken at Fed Ex, the company fails and is replaced. If something is broken at the US Postal Service or SEC, we throw more money at it or do nothing and say "Oh well, that $100 million didn't work..."

I don't limit blame to "teh guvmint." I blame US citizens for simply not caring enough to do anything about it. Although, again, what choices are there? No one is going to violently overthrow the government because most people here, even the impoverished, live pretty comfortably and don't want to risk their lives when life is good and The Bachelor is on TV. I just wish we had more realistic choices from a governance perspective. I'm probably wrong about this, but don't all other erstwhile republics have more than two political parties? Isn't there actually a real choice in other countries instead of choosing between two sides of the same coin?
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:32 pm

mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:if the government didn't have so much power, so much power would not be for sale


What makes you sure that shifting that power to the private sector wouldn't just replace a bunch of 'for sale' politicians with a bunch of 'for sale' executives? Why should we assume that non-government power holders would be less rent-seeking?


Examine the differences in the exchanges: voting/rent-seeking v. paying for something.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:39 pm

Fair enough.

tgd wrote:I just wish we had more realistic choices from a governance perspective. I'm probably wrong about this, but don't all other erstwhile republics have more than two political parties? Isn't there actually a real choice in other countries instead of choosing between two sides of the same coin?


I'm assuming I won't be accused of DERAILING!!!!?!1 by following up on your last point within this thread. What is it about the American system that locks out new/small parties from gaining any traction whatsoever? Has any serious effort ever been made to at least establish and maintain a political alternative, anywhere in the States?

I guess the other end of the scale would be Australia, where I'm told compulsory voting and ballot cards with 100+ candidates on them can see people gaining votes simply by being the person placed at the top of the list (because people who are only voting out of legal necessity don't really care whose name they tick).
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:40 pm

BigBallinStalin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:if the government didn't have so much power, so much power would not be for sale


What makes you sure that shifting that power to the private sector wouldn't just replace a bunch of 'for sale' politicians with a bunch of 'for sale' executives? Why should we assume that non-government power holders would be less rent-seeking?


Examine the differences in the exchanges: voting/rent-seeking v. paying for something.


Isn't bribing a government official also 'paying for something'?
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:40 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:But if they're already in the store and they're choosing between a larger and smaller package, they will often go for the smaller one simply because it's cheaper in the short term.


I don't have any information to indicate the average person does that so I'll have to take your word for it. The only information I have is that stores that sell CPG products in bulk have been the most successful retail sector in the U.S. over the last decade and I'm pretty sure it's not because of the free frozen hummus samples.


What do you mean by "most successful retail sector?" Growing the fastest does not necessarily mean that they are the most successful (unless you define it that way), if the market for their competitors has saturated. Remember that BJs, Price Club/Costco, Sam's Club, etc. mostly all got going in the mid-1980s. This growth could simply be because the stores hadn't hit their natural equilibrium yet. And if they had, what would be your explanation for the growth? That people suddenly got smarter about 10 years ago?

I suspect the humans are capable of more complex thought than you seem inclined to believe.


It's not that we're not capable -- it's just that we don't always act rationally. To be fair, it goes both ways -- sometimes we'll buy things to get the better deal, even if we don't need the extra quantity. Stores wouldn't keep using 2 for $5 style discounts if it didn't work.

That said, I do frequently purchase less than the absolute largest size I can get of things, even though it may be more expensive. That's not because I can't do 10th grade division, but because I don't like to store 50 rolls of toilet paper and am happy to pay a relatively small premium to Ralph's to store 46 rolls for me until such time as I've shit my way through the 4 I took out of the store with me.


That's fine, but it doesn't really address the battery example.


It's true that sometimes, in a conversation, people reach an impasse of comprehension they are unable to surmount no matter how many different instructional phrasings are offered.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Mar 14, 2014 2:56 pm

mrswdk wrote:Fair enough.

tgd wrote:I just wish we had more realistic choices from a governance perspective. I'm probably wrong about this, but don't all other erstwhile republics have more than two political parties? Isn't there actually a real choice in other countries instead of choosing between two sides of the same coin?


I'm assuming I won't be accused of DERAILING!!!!?!1 by following up on your last point within this thread. What is it about the American system that locks out new/small parties from gaining any traction whatsoever? Has any serious effort ever been made to at least establish and maintain a political alternative, anywhere in the States?

I guess the other end of the scale would be Australia, where I'm told compulsory voting and ballot cards with 100+ candidates on them can see people gaining votes simply by being the person placed at the top of the list (because people who are only voting out of legal necessity don't really care whose name they tick).


To answer your questions:

(1) What prohibits other parties from seriously contending? Some combination of money and the rules around the political process.
(2) Have there been serious efforts? It depends on what you mean by serious. There have been efforts on a local/state level, but they have been largely unsuccessful and I'm not sure how serious they were. There was Ross Perot and his nonsense back in the 1990s. I don't even remember the name of the political party. I think most of what has to be done has to be done within the existing political parties until there is enough pressure in a particular party to cause a rift. So the Tea Party is a potential example of something that can cause a rift although I don't think it will.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Jmac1026 on Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:22 pm

mrswdk wrote:I'm assuming I won't be accused of DERAILING!!!!?!1 by following up on your last point within this thread. What is it about the American system that locks out new/small parties from gaining any traction whatsoever? Has any serious effort ever been made to at least establish and maintain a political alternative, anywhere in the States?

The last serious effort (although I am not a political historian by any measure) was probably the Bull Moose party. Theodore Roosevelt was pissy with the direction that the Republican Party had decided to take after the end of his presidency, so he formed the Bull Moose party to run for a third term (this being before the amendment restricting it to two terms). The guy was extraordinarily popular, but all he managed to do was split the republican vote in half, allowing underdog Democrat Woodrow Wilson to squeak by and gain the presidency. Now there's a major stigma against attempting that kind of thing, fearing it would just split the vote negatively again.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:03 pm

mrswdk wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:if the government didn't have so much power, so much power would not be for sale


What makes you sure that shifting that power to the private sector wouldn't just replace a bunch of 'for sale' politicians with a bunch of 'for sale' executives? Why should we assume that non-government power holders would be less rent-seeking?


Examine the differences in the exchanges: voting/rent-seeking v. paying for something.


Isn't bribing a government official also 'paying for something'?


Do you bribe the person at the ticket counter to buy a movie ticket?
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:28 pm

No, and I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Bribery is possible in the private sector as well as in the public sector, so I don't see how transferring power from public to private hands would cause corruption to suddenly wane.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby tzor on Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:33 pm

mrswdk wrote:I'm assuming I won't be accused of DERAILING!!!!?!1 by following up on your last point within this thread. What is it about the American system that locks out new/small parties from gaining any traction whatsoever? Has any serious effort ever been made to at least establish and maintain a political alternative, anywhere in the States?


It doesn't. People just look at political parties in the wrong way. They think of a political party and they think of President of the United States or bust. You need a (strangely defined) majority to have a shot at that.

What you can do, however, is impact local elections, state elections, and perhaps a number of congressional races. (A US Senate Seat requires more effort since it is state wide.)

Now New York has something called electoral fusion, "An arrangement where two or more political parties on a ballot list the same candidate, pooling the votes for that candidate. Distinct from the process of electoral alliances in that the political parties remain separately listed on the ballot, the practice of electoral fusion in jurisdictions where it exists allows minor parties to influence election results and policy by offering to endorse or nominate a major party's candidate." This allows a party, say the "Conservative" party to hold a major party, say the "Republican" party to specific principles if the Republican Candidate wants the line of the Conservative and thus the voting block of the Conservative members. This is done in NY through the "Wilson-Pakula Act of 1947" (yes say that name three times in a row; it's strangely fun). That act allows "the leaders of political parties the power to anoint nonparty members who want to run on their ballot lines."

Here is the list of political parties in New York. Does it work? Well, somewhat. New York's problems are mostly demographic anyway, New York City controls most of the population and tends to be strongly Democrat.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:01 pm

mrswdk wrote:No, and I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Bribery is possible in the private sector as well as in the public sector, so I don't see how transferring power from public to private hands would cause corruption to suddenly wane.


Exchanges in politics differ from exchanges in markets. Thinking about how they differ reveals the different outcomes of the two.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:36 am

So what's the difference between bribing a private company's HR officer to employee you instead of a more suitable candidate, and bribing a public official to award a tender to your company in place of a slightly more suitable one?
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:27 am

mrswdk wrote:So if you remove that power and ability to control from the hands of politicians, whose hands does it end up in? And why do you assume that it would not be 'for sale' in the same way that government-held power supposedly is?


Because, the government did not create the new industry. did not create the jobs, did not innovate a new product, it did not earn or create that power, that power was taken by the government. What I am saying is why should the power be handed over to anyone at all? Why does the power have to 'end up in someones hands'? Why must the power be transferred to an entity that has no idea what it took to create the power or how to maintain it?

Bottom line, IMO, big government is a major reason why Democracy is failing America,
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:33 am

Jmac1026 wrote:
mrswdk wrote:I'm assuming I won't be accused of DERAILING!!!!?!1 by following up on your last point within this thread. What is it about the American system that locks out new/small parties from gaining any traction whatsoever? Has any serious effort ever been made to at least establish and maintain a political alternative, anywhere in the States?

The last serious effort (although I am not a political historian by any measure) was probably the Bull Moose party. Theodore Roosevelt was pissy with the direction that the Republican Party had decided to take after the end of his presidency, so he formed the Bull Moose party to run for a third term (this being before the amendment restricting it to two terms). The guy was extraordinarily popular, but all he managed to do was split the republican vote in half, allowing underdog Democrat Woodrow Wilson to squeak by and gain the presidency. Now there's a major stigma against attempting that kind of thing, fearing it would just split the vote negatively again.


Teddy split the vote on purpose. See, Teddy Roosevelt was a Progressive, but his hand picked successor turned out not to be. So when Teddy's successor ran again Woodrow Wilson (Progressive) Teddy made sure the vote was split, because even if Teddy's own 'party' lost, Teddy still won the cause (Progressivism)
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:35 am

mrswdk wrote:No, and I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Bribery is possible in the private sector as well as in the public sector, so I don't see how transferring power from public to private hands would cause corruption to suddenly wane.


If the exchange of goods was legal or ethical, we would not be using the word 'bribing'
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:53 am

PS wrote:Because, the government did not create the new industry. did not create the jobs, did not innovate a new product, it did not earn or create that power, that power was taken by the government. What I am saying is why should the power be handed over to anyone at all? Why does the power have to 'end up in someones hands'? Why must the power be transferred to an entity that has no idea what it took to create the power or how to maintain it?


Well that's not vague at all. What power are you talking about? Your problem is with the government regulating industry?

Anyway, I thought your complaint was that power becomes 'for sale' once it is in the hands of the government. Now you're talking about the government stealing power from those who truly deserve it. Which do you want to talk about?
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:55 am

Phatscotty wrote:
mrswdk wrote:No, and I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Bribery is possible in the private sector as well as in the public sector, so I don't see how transferring power from public to private hands would cause corruption to suddenly wane.


If the exchange of goods was legal or ethical, we would not be using the word 'bribing'


Yes. And if you were typing in German then we would be communicating in a different language.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby crispybits on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:56 am

mrswdk wrote:Phatscotty's argument appeared to hinge on the idea that a larger government undermines 'democracy' by increasing the number of areas in which government agents have the power to rent seek. His answer is to reduce the number of things that the government has control over.

My question is: does reducing government authority and responsibility in various areas of society decrease the scale of corruption and rent-seeking overall, or would it just shift it from within the government to non-government hands?

With regards to your point, tgd, do you have any particular examples of areas where you feel the private sector could do what the government does but without using as many resources?


I think PSs argument (and for once I don't entirely disagree with him) is that government interference creates power over situations where without government none would exist, rather than the power being in private hands.

For example, the government say you need a license to sell alcohol or firearms. This creates power in the hands of the beauracracy to allow or deny any given peron to sell alcohol or firearms. If the government did not require a license to sell alcohol or firearms then that power does not pass to the private sector, it simply vanishes.

(I have no idea about the specific regulations round selling alcohol or firearms in America btw, the example still stands as a theoretical even if it doesn't work in practice because the law doesn't quite work that way there)
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:59 am

mrswdk wrote:
PS wrote:Because, the government did not create the new industry. did not create the jobs, did not innovate a new product, it did not earn or create that power, that power was taken by the government. What I am saying is why should the power be handed over to anyone at all? Why does the power have to 'end up in someones hands'? Why must the power be transferred to an entity that has no idea what it took to create the power or how to maintain it?


Well that's not vague at all. What power are you talking about? Your problem is with the government regulating industry?

Anyway, I thought your complaint was that power becomes 'for sale' once it is in the hands of the government. Now you're talking about the government stealing power from those who truly deserve it. Which do you want to talk about?


The premise here is government that is too big, so no, it wouldn't be regulation of industry, it would be over-regulation.

the bigger the government, the smaller the citizen, the smaller the voice of the citizen, the smaller the resbonsibility of the citizen, the smaller the power of the citizen, the weaker the Democracy. Make sense, even a little??
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:02 am

mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:
mrswdk wrote:No, and I don't see what that has to do with my question.

Bribery is possible in the private sector as well as in the public sector, so I don't see how transferring power from public to private hands would cause corruption to suddenly wane.


If the exchange of goods was legal or ethical, we would not be using the word 'bribing'


Yes. And if you were typing in German then we would be communicating in a different language.


well, that's why it's different than buying a move ticket anyways
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:30 am

Phatscotty wrote:the bigger the government, the smaller the citizen


Only if you assume that increasing the role of government is incompatible with empowering citizens. What about, say, Switzerland?

At the end of the day, these politicians and their institutions rely on your votes to exist. If you're really that fed up, and there is no alternative to the Democrats and Republicans, then stop voting. As long as the majority of the population keep voting for the status quo then you have to accept that the status quo is what people have democratically chosen.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:37 am

crispybits wrote:I think PSs argument (and for once I don't entirely disagree with him) is that government interference creates power over situations where without government none would exist, rather than the power being in private hands


Well then you need to look at each individual example (e.g. sale of firearms) and consider the pros and cons for society of regulation versus deregulation.

I would also argue that the issue is not the power that comes with regulation per se, but the way in which that power is used. Proper checks and balances would be just as viable a way of fighting corruption as throwing out official power altogether would be.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:33 am

mrswdk wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:the bigger the government, the smaller the citizen


Only if you assume that increasing the role of government is incompatible with empowering citizens. What about, say, Switzerland?

At the end of the day, these politicians and their institutions rely on your votes to exist. If you're really that fed up, and there is no alternative to the Democrats and Republicans, then stop voting. As long as the majority of the population keep voting for the status quo then you have to accept that the status quo is what people have democratically chosen.


Looks like you've never heard of the Tea Party, and only if you assume that if something works in Switzerland, that means it's the exact same in America. But let's not change the subject and start bringing up other countries, I'd like to hear you explore how a bigger government makes the citizenry more powerful, preferably in America. Go!!

show

and BTW, someone remind the establishment Republicans they already co-opted the Tea Party years ago, because the Republican leaders are still smearing and fighting the Tea Party to the death and making threats years later. They must have forgot they already co-opted us.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby mrswdk on Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:54 am

loal. So what you were actually trying to say is 'big American government means smaller American citizens'.

PS wrote:I'd like to hear you explore how a bigger government makes the citizenry more powerful


I never said that big government causes empowered citizens. I just asked whether or not it's possible to have both at the same time. Other countries manage it. Why not the US? What's different?

Regardless of the Tea Party's existence (aren't they all members of the Republican Party anyway?), the point still stands that most of your countrymen and women are voting to stick with the established system. If people did not like their current institutions then they would not keep voting to perpetuate them.
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Re: Why democracy is failing America

Postby Phatscotty on Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:00 am

mrswdk wrote:loal. So what you were actually trying to say is 'big American government means smaller American citizens'.

PS wrote:I'd like to hear you explore how a bigger government makes the citizenry more powerful


I never said that big government causes empowered citizens. I just asked whether or not it's possible to have both at the same time. Other countries manage it. Why not the US? What's different?

Regardless of the Tea Party's existence (aren't they all members of the Republican Party anyway?), the point still stands that most of your countrymen and women are voting to stick with the established system. If people did not like their current institutions then they would not keep voting to perpetuate them.


How would to figure you could have both at the same time. Do you have some thoughts to offer?

How do you figure most of my country is voting to stick with the established system? What do you base that statement on? Are you sure there wasn't a shockwave as far as who we've been voting in the last few years? (Hint: 2010 was the biggest Congressional landslide since 1938, and 'establishment' is the wrong word to descibe all the incoming 'freshman')

Republicans hate the Tea Party more than they hate Democrats. The Tea Party is a Liberal-Libertarian leaning group of fiscal Conservatives. We will hopefully have some Tea Party Democrats soon too.
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