True face of Angela Merkel

[subtleknifewield]

Well, actually, the Middle East is the origin of retty much all the major Abrahamic religions. You can't really say Islam invaded, it was born there too.

It was born there, yes, in a very multi-cultural and multi-religious world. At least a dozen major religions co-existed in relative peace before Mohammed created one that allows no co-existence and insists on the subjugation of all others.

Just like Islam might have been dominant in Spain but tolerated other religions existing there...before the Christians united and kicked everyone else out.

Yes, they had some special laws applicable to non-Muslims, I am aware, but they weren't actively persecuted for not being Muslim, either.

[waauw]

Well, actually, the Middle East is the origin of retty much all the major Abrahamic religions. You can't really say Islam invaded, it was born there too.

It was born there, yes, in a very multi-cultural and multi-religious world. At least a dozen major religions co-existed in relative peace before Mohammed created one that allows no co-existence and insists on the subjugation of all others.

Isn't the same true about christianism and judaism in their early days? I seem to remember a history lesson about emperor Constantine waging war on all pagans and the old testament talks of the jews starting religious wars on their neighbours.

[subtleknifewield]

Well, actually, the Middle East is the origin of retty much all the major Abrahamic religions. You can't really say Islam invaded, it was born there too.

It was born there, yes, in a very multi-cultural and multi-religious world. At least a dozen major religions co-existed in relative peace before Mohammed created one that allows no co-existence and insists on the subjugation of all others.

Isn't the same true about christianism and judaism in their early days? I seem to remember a history lesson about emperor Constantine waging war on all pagans and the old testament talks of the jews starting religious wars on their neighbours.

You are correct.

[Dukasaur]

Well, actually, the Middle East is the origin of retty much all the major Abrahamic religions. You can't really say Islam invaded, it was born there too.

It was born there, yes, in a very multi-cultural and multi-religious world. At least a dozen major religions co-existed in relative peace before Mohammed created one that allows no co-existence and insists on the subjugation of all others.

Just like Islam might have been dominant in Spain but tolerated other religions existing there...before the Christians united and kicked everyone else out.

Yes, they had some special laws applicable to non-Muslims, I am aware, but they weren't actively persecuted for not being Muslim, either.

So, being unable to counter my point about the Middle East, you decide to duck and run and switch the debate to Europe.

I could just say, "that's not the Middle East," but hell, no. I'll play along with your switch and the same holds true in Europe.

The tolerance you're referring to existed in the Caliphate of Cordoba during its "Golden Age" from 929 to 1031 A.D. Just slightly over a century, then, in the fourteen centuries that Islam has been with us. The Arab empire at its greatest extent was 15 million square kilometers and the Caliphate of Cordoba occupied 600,000 square kilometers, or 4% of the total. So, a kingdom that occupied 4% of the Arab empire for a duration of 7% of the time it has existed (in other words a fraction of 0.0028 of the total time-space extent of the Arab empire) practised a significant degree of religious tolerance.

That tolerance was not absolute. Muslim Arabs were a special ruling class, Muslims of non-Arab descent were considered second-class citizens, Jews were considered third-class, the Christians (a majority of the population in the 10th century but declining to a minority in the 11th) were fourth-class and paid special taxes for their Christianity, and other significant minorities like Zoroastrians and Non-trinitarian Christians were outlawed entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba#Society

The tolearant society of Cordoba led to a Golden Age of science and art, which helped seed the Renaissance in Europe, but it was viewed with suspicion by all other Muslim kingdoms. When civil war tore apart the Caliphate, the Almoravids, a fundamentalist group of Muslims from North Africa, firmly devoted to the concept of jihad, rushed north to fill the power vacuum.

http://www.spainthenandnow.com/spanish-history/11th-c-al-andalus-almoravids/default_146.aspx

The Almoravids utterly extinguished all traces of religious tolerance. Numerous massacres of Jews and Christians took place. Soon, the Christian kings of Northern Iberia were calling for help from other Christian kingdoms in Europe, and the rest, as they say, is history. The Christian reconquista included its own horrific atrocities, massacres of Jews and Muslims, but the precedent had been set by the Almoravids.

The Caliphate of Cordoba at its height was a shining beacon of what a tolerant society can do, but it was a statistical anomaly. The normal history of countries occupied by Arabs is jihad, extreme religious intolerance, sharia and faida.

[subtleknifewield]

Well, actually, the Middle East is the origin of retty much all the major Abrahamic religions. You can't really say Islam invaded, it was born there too.

It was born there, yes, in a very multi-cultural and multi-religious world. At least a dozen major religions co-existed in relative peace before Mohammed created one that allows no co-existence and insists on the subjugation of all others.

Just like Islam might have been dominant in Spain but tolerated other religions existing there...before the Christians united and kicked everyone else out.

Yes, they had some special laws applicable to non-Muslims, I am aware, but they weren't actively persecuted for not being Muslim, either.

So, being unable to counter my point about the Middle East, you decide to duck and run and switch the debate to Europe.

I could just say, "that's not the Middle East," but hell, no. I'll play along with your switch and the same holds true in Europe.

The tolerance you're referring to existed in the Caliphate of Cordoba during its "Golden Age" from 929 to 1031 A.D. Just slightly over a century, then, in the fourteen centuries that Islam has been with us. The Arab empire at its greatest extent was 15 million square kilometers and the Caliphate of Cordoba occupied 600,000 square kilometers, or 4% of the total. So, a kingdom that occupied 4% of the Arab empire for a duration of 7% of the time it has existed (in other words a fraction of 0.0028 of the total time-space extent of the Arab empire) practised a significant degree of religious tolerance.

That tolerance was not absolute. Muslim Arabs were a special ruling class, Muslims of non-Arab descent were considered second-class citizens, Jews were considered third-class, the Christians (a majority of the population in the 10th century but declining to a minority in the 11th) were fourth-class and paid special taxes for their Christianity, and other significant minorities like Zoroastrians and Non-trinitarian Christians were outlawed entirely.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate_of_C%C3%B3rdoba#Society

The tolearant society of Cordoba led to a Golden Age of science and art, which helped seed the Renaissance in Europe, but it was viewed with suspicion by all other Muslim kingdoms. When civil war tore apart the Caliphate, the Almoravids, a fundamentalist group of Muslims from North Africa, firmly devoted to the concept of jihad, rushed north to fill the power vacuum.

http://www.spainthenandnow.com/spanish-history/11th-c-al-andalus-almoravids/default_146.aspx

The Almoravids utterly extinguished all traces of religious tolerance. Numerous massacres of Jews and Christians took place. Soon, the Christian kings of Northern Iberia were calling for help from other Christian kingdoms in Europe, and the rest, as they say, is history. The Christian reconquista included its own horrific atrocities, massacres of Jews and Muslims, but the precedent had been set by the Almoravids.

The Caliphate of Cordoba at its height was a shining beacon of what a tolerant society can do, but it was a statistical anomaly. The normal history of countries occupied by Arabs is jihad, extreme religious intolerance, sharia and faida.

And you completely missed my point. Thanks anyway, it was not about just the Middle East, which has a history of religious violence long predating the origin of Islam.

My point was all religious have their high point of toleration, and all have their lows of persecuting others.