Turkey shoots down Russian fighter jet

[GoranZ]

I'm not going to take your drivel seriously Saxi.

Any attack on Turkey will invoke the NATO charter. You know Saxi? Any attack on any NATO member country is an attack on all member countries.

Demonstrated in the streets of Paris NATO kill it self from helping France. And the things to be more drastic Olande is still persuading for his NATO allies to join(dont mix it with help) France in their revenge. By the same time Putin already give the order for assistance of France.
Which country from Europe would risk total destruction and join in Turkey if there is adequate retaliation from the Russians? I hope you are not hoping that the same countries that dont want Turkey in EU would hep it a lot.

Oh' Putin may take his shoe off and yell that he will bury us all, but that's all that's going to happen.

You know that the picture is not even in color. You are still stuck in that time I guess

Back on subject... Interesting speech from Erdogan from 2012, along with reported 1017 violations of Greek-Turkish border last year from Turkish planes.
Erdogan in 2012: Brief Airspace Violations Can't Be Pretext for Attack

[patches70]

NATO is a relic of an old world that no longer exists and should have long since been disbanded. The European countries haven't honored their end of the treaty for decades (as in they are supposed to meet certain defense spending that hasn't been met by many of them in many years).
Europe is now the European Union and as such is perfectly capable of defending themselves without the help of the US. The EU and the US should be engaging in trade, not the US promising to fight their wars for them.

And no Bernie, the US is not going to endanger themselves for the likes of Turkey. If the politicians try to take us down that road then the politicians will find themselves on the wrong end of a rope before it's all said and done.

A poll, how many of you american forum goers are willing to risk nuclear war with Russia on behalf of Turkey? A show of hands, anyone?
Turkey is aligned with ISIS for Christ's sakes! ISIS is supposed to be the "bad guys", so what does that make Turkey?

Where are the arrests of those traders who are middle manning the sale of ISIS oil? Anyone ever wonder about that? There is no doubt that ISIS is selling their oil (even though it is illegal for anyone to buy it, including TURKEY) and we even bombed some ISIS oil tankers just the other day (after giving them a 45 minute warning the bombs were coming hahahaha!). So who is buying this oil? Who are the facilitators that are hooking up the sellers (ISIS) to the buyers? Are we to believe that with SWIFT in effect we can't figure out who is buying ISIS oil?
Gimme a break.

[GoranZ]

Saxi spouts off:

You are completely out-of-touch if you seriously think any U.S. president will see the 25 largest U.S. cities turned into sheets glass and 60 million Americans killed to protect a a bunch of goat herders who are backing ISIS because there's a treaty that says he has to.

Putin and even the Russian Generals will not start a thermo-nuclear war over a Russian plane that has trespass over Turkey airspace.

Get real Saxi!

Good point but the question is: Would American Generals start thermo-nuclear war with Russia over Syria?
I think we all(even you) know the answer

[Bernie Sanders]

Saxi spouts off:

You are completely out-of-touch if you seriously think any U.S. president will see the 25 largest U.S. cities turned into sheets glass and 60 million Americans killed to protect a a bunch of goat herders who are backing ISIS because there's a treaty that says he has to.

Putin and even the Russian Generals will not start a thermo-nuclear war over a Russian plane that has trespass over Turkey airspace.

Get real Saxi!

Good point but the question is: Would American Generals start thermo-nuclear war with Russia over Syria?
I think we all(even you) know the answer

There will be no Thermo-Nuclear War.

That being said, everyone needs to calm down. I believe a rational agreement will come between Russia and Turkey. Nobody is going to win, by escalating this into a full blown war.

[jgordon1111]

Well at least some of you pay attention, my point about the Geneva convention was the pilots even being shot at after they ejected broke the Geneva convention, not the plane being shot down,no matter what right or wrong they hadn't fired their payload, and that was some coward bullshit to kill them like that. That was my only point.

[notyou2]

Legal experts say that shooting down a plane on suspicion of an airspace violation is a very extreme and strange measure, and particularly unjustified given that Russia showed no aggression towards Turkey.
Russian Fighter Jet Posed No Threat to Turkey, So Why Shoot it Down?


Russian fighter jets will now accompany all of Moscow's missions against Islamic State targets in Syria, the General Staff said. Prior to Tuesday's attack, Russian strike aircraft were conducting their missions without air cover.
Russia Deploys Maritime Air Defense After Jet Shot Down Over Syria.

I presume its too late now... Turkey believes Russian pilots still alive, seeking their release: government official

OH REALLY??????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Tell that to the 269 civilians killed by Russia on that passenger jet.

[GoranZ]

Leaked Ankara UN letter claims Su-24's ‘air space violation’ lasted 17 seconds

Previously today we read that Russian plane was warned 10 times... 10 times in 17 seconds, that's fast or very fake from the Turks

[saxitoxin]

Putin and even the Russian Generals will not start a thermo-nuclear war over a Russian plane that has trespass over Turkey airspace.

Exactly.

And Barack McCain and even the American generals will not start a thermo-nuclear war if there's an unexplained loss of contact with one of Turkey's expensive new German subs in the Black Sea. Or if the PKK suddenly find themselves equipped with much heavier weapons to take on the Turkish police than some old Kalashnikovs. Or if the Minister of Agriculture is in a car accident. Or if one of Russia's "inaccurate cruise missiles" accidentally lands in Turkey (because it's inaccurate, of course, not because it was intended). Or, indeed, if all of those happen.

[patches70]

Well at least some of you pay attention, my point about the Geneva convention was the pilots even being shot at after they ejected broke the Geneva convention, not the plane being shot down,no matter what right or wrong they hadn't fired their payload, and that was some coward bullshit to kill them like that. That was my only point.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think ISIS ever actually signed the Geneva accords...
But yes, that is some cowardly bullshit done by "our guys", the supposed "moderate rebels" that we train, arm, equip and pay. Kinda makes one wonder what kind of people the US is giving lethal weapons such as TOW missile systems and such to...

Maybe if the terrorists blow up a Paris cafe with a US made TOW missile people might actually say "enough is enough, time to cut these guys loose" and put 'em in the ground where they belong. It shouldn't come to that though, I'd have hoped people had enough sense to not do such a thing, but here we are.

[GoranZ]

Legal experts say that shooting down a plane on suspicion of an airspace violation is a very extreme and strange measure, and particularly unjustified given that Russia showed no aggression towards Turkey.
Russian Fighter Jet Posed No Threat to Turkey, So Why Shoot it Down?


Russian fighter jets will now accompany all of Moscow's missions against Islamic State targets in Syria, the General Staff said. Prior to Tuesday's attack, Russian strike aircraft were conducting their missions without air cover.
Russia Deploys Maritime Air Defense After Jet Shot Down Over Syria.

I presume its too late now... Turkey believes Russian pilots still alive, seeking their release: government official

OH REALLY??????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

You are quite an idiot aren't you?
I quote from Wikipedia:

The aircraft was en route from Anchorage, Alaska to Seoul when it flew through Soviet prohibited airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission.

KAL007 was an accident that could have been avoided if United States and Soviet Union weren't pushing each other that much. And should have been avoided. PERIOD.

[jgordon1111]

Leaked Ankara UN letter claims Su-24's ‘air space violation’ lasted 17 seconds

Previously today we read that Russian plane was warned 10 times... 10 times in 17 seconds, that's fast or very fake from the Turks

Indeed goran remember it was first reported there was tape of those warnings, never played nor spoke of again. Now it is just( reported) 10 warnings.

[saxitoxin]

I believe a rational agreement will come between Russia and Turkey. Nobody is going to win, by escalating this into a full blown war.

This presupposes U.S.-ally Erdogan is a rational president. This is the guy who banned Twitter and spent more than half-a-billion dollars to build himself a new palace with gold toilets.

[jgordon1111]

Well at least some of you pay attention, my point about the Geneva convention was the pilots even being shot at after they ejected broke the Geneva convention, not the plane being shot down,no matter what right or wrong they hadn't fired their payload, and that was some coward bullshit to kill them like that. That was my only point.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think ISIS ever actually signed the Geneva accords...
But yes, that is some cowardly bullshit done by "our guys", the supposed "moderate rebels" that we train, arm, equip and pay. Kinda makes one wonder what kind of people the US is giving lethal weapons such as TOW missile systems and such to...

Maybe if the terrorists blow up a Paris cafe with a US made TOW missile people might actually say "enough is enough, time to cut these guys loose" and put 'em in the ground where they belong. It shouldn't come to that though, I'd have hoped people had enough sense to not do such a thing, but here we are.

Patches Isis is not being credited for that action Turkish or Turkish supported fighters are & those mother fuckers did sign the Geneva convention.

[notyou2]

Legal experts say that shooting down a plane on suspicion of an airspace violation is a very extreme and strange measure, and particularly unjustified given that Russia showed no aggression towards Turkey.
Russian Fighter Jet Posed No Threat to Turkey, So Why Shoot it Down?


Russian fighter jets will now accompany all of Moscow's missions against Islamic State targets in Syria, the General Staff said. Prior to Tuesday's attack, Russian strike aircraft were conducting their missions without air cover.
Russia Deploys Maritime Air Defense After Jet Shot Down Over Syria.

I presume its too late now... Turkey believes Russian pilots still alive, seeking their release: government official

OH REALLY??????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

You are quite an idiot aren't you?
I quote from Wikipedia:

The aircraft was en route from Anchorage, Alaska to Seoul when it flew through Soviet prohibited airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission.

KAL007 was an accident that could have been avoided if United States and Soviet Union weren't pushing each other that much. And should have been avoided. PERIOD.

You are a simple minded moron if you think Russia did not know it was shooting down a passenger jet.

[patches70]

Well at least some of you pay attention, my point about the Geneva convention was the pilots even being shot at after they ejected broke the Geneva convention, not the plane being shot down,no matter what right or wrong they hadn't fired their payload, and that was some coward bullshit to kill them like that. That was my only point.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think ISIS ever actually signed the Geneva accords...
But yes, that is some cowardly bullshit done by "our guys", the supposed "moderate rebels" that we train, arm, equip and pay. Kinda makes one wonder what kind of people the US is giving lethal weapons such as TOW missile systems and such to...

Maybe if the terrorists blow up a Paris cafe with a US made TOW missile people might actually say "enough is enough, time to cut these guys loose" and put 'em in the ground where they belong. It shouldn't come to that though, I'd have hoped people had enough sense to not do such a thing, but here we are.

Patches Isis is not being credited for that action Turkish or Turkish supported fighters are & those mother fuckers did sign the Geneva convention.

I don't think it was Turks who shot the parachuting Russians. I may be wrong, I didn't watch the videos of the Russian planes being shot down or of the pilots being machine gunned and their bodies being dragged around by the FSA. Turkey shot the plane down, but to my understanding it was the FSA who was machine gunning the pilots as they parachuted. Which is as you say against Geneva convention but FSA didn't sign any Geneva convention.
Do you think Turkey should be held accountable for FSA actions?

[saxitoxin]

Legal experts say that shooting down a plane on suspicion of an airspace violation is a very extreme and strange measure, and particularly unjustified given that Russia showed no aggression towards Turkey.
Russian Fighter Jet Posed No Threat to Turkey, So Why Shoot it Down?


Russian fighter jets will now accompany all of Moscow's missions against Islamic State targets in Syria, the General Staff said. Prior to Tuesday's attack, Russian strike aircraft were conducting their missions without air cover.
Russia Deploys Maritime Air Defense After Jet Shot Down Over Syria.

I presume its too late now... Turkey believes Russian pilots still alive, seeking their release: government official

OH REALLY??????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

You are quite an idiot aren't you?
I quote from Wikipedia:

The aircraft was en route from Anchorage, Alaska to Seoul when it flew through Soviet prohibited airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission.

KAL007 was an accident that could have been avoided if United States and Soviet Union weren't pushing each other that much. And should have been avoided. PERIOD.

You are a simple minded moron if you think Russia did not know it was shooting down a passenger jet.

So it sounds like the takeaway here is: don't book your holiday travel on Turkish Airlines.

[Bernie Sanders]

I believe a rational agreement will come between Russia and Turkey. Nobody is going to win, by escalating this into a full blown war.

This presupposes U.S.-ally Erdogan is a rational president. This is the guy who banned Twitter and spent more than half-a-billion dollars to build himself a new palace with gold toilets.

Saxi, you really can crack a joke.

You being a Putin apologists, Putin cracking down on any type of dissent in Russia and the government controlling the media there AND you pointing your finger at Erdogan?



Saxi, you funny, like a clown.

[jgordon1111]

Yes patches if they operated inside Turk borders Turkey has two choices take responsibility for what happens inside their borders, or say it was a misrepresentation of what rely happened (outside) their borders by previous allies. Putin and the rest of the world may accept that and move forward to kick the crap out of Isis. Maybe

[GoranZ]

Legal experts say that shooting down a plane on suspicion of an airspace violation is a very extreme and strange measure, and particularly unjustified given that Russia showed no aggression towards Turkey.
Russian Fighter Jet Posed No Threat to Turkey, So Why Shoot it Down?


Russian fighter jets will now accompany all of Moscow's missions against Islamic State targets in Syria, the General Staff said. Prior to Tuesday's attack, Russian strike aircraft were conducting their missions without air cover.
Russia Deploys Maritime Air Defense After Jet Shot Down Over Syria.

I presume its too late now... Turkey believes Russian pilots still alive, seeking their release: government official

OH REALLY??????

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

You are quite an idiot aren't you?
I quote from Wikipedia:

The aircraft was en route from Anchorage, Alaska to Seoul when it flew through Soviet prohibited airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissance mission.

KAL007 was an accident that could have been avoided if United States and Soviet Union weren't pushing each other that much. And should have been avoided. PERIOD.

You are a simple minded moron if you think Russia did not know it was shooting down a passenger jet.

First, it was the Soviets, not the Russians, there is a difference. From the reports the passenger plane was shot down at the border of Soviet Air Space with air to air rocket fired from ~5km distance in night time. I dont think that were aware that that was passenger plane, or better said they believed it was reconnaissance plane. Importantly there was improper use of equipment in KAL007 and Soviets scrambled 10 planes to intercept it. Soviets also had problems on their own with their radar station and on top of everything Americans used Reconnaissance plane in the same area in the same time.
Too many little details that caused to the loss of life but in no way you imbecile can write that down on the Russians.

[jgordon1111]

And still no one finds it strange that those fighters were in just the right place at the right time to get it all on video, and the video itself a prpaganda tool for Isis. Hey look we took down a Russian jet and killed the pilots as well, imagine how that's being passed around right now. Again Turks have a choice, bring the world to war or disassociate themselves from those so called allies.my thought is they go for war and everyone else is now along for the ride,unless someone calms Putin down, he so wants to be the big dog.

[muy_thaiguy]

http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/News/2 ... s-airspace
This was from over a month ago. It says that Turkey would respond with their rules of engagement to any more violations of their air space.

Not going to say in favor of one side or another, but it from this, Russia was clearly told that if theirs, or any other nations jets violate their airspace (there without Turkish permission), Turkey would respond. However, the pilots could have accidentally passed over Turkey to or from a mission.

[Dukasaur]

This was a war crime, plain and simple. Russia has an inherent, legal right of self-defense,

Russia has long maintained the right to shoot down any planes, even harmless civilian planes, that violate its airspace, even accidentally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleva_%28airplane%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_402
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Since Russia believes in the right to shoot down even civilian flights that accidentally violate its airspace, it should without question accept the shooting down of a military flight that intentionally violated Turkish airspace.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

Was there an Armenian in the jet?

-TG

[jgordon1111]

This was a war crime, plain and simple. Russia has an inherent, legal right of self-defense,

Russia has long maintained the right to shoot down any planes, even harmless civilian planes, that violate its airspace, even accidentally.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaleva_%28airplane%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_402
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_902
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007

Since Russia believes in the right to shoot down even civilian flights that accidentally violate its airspace, it should without question accept the shooting down of a military flight that intentionally violated Turkish airspace.

Ditto duk

[jgordon1111]

Ok, for those who look at this thread and think what a great way to say what I want about who I want, think of it this way we play risk here you win some you lose some move on to the next game, you CC players are from all over the world, you feel you know what is going on around you, you think you know how alot of people around you think. If you do,really think about the possibility of what might in real life happen next, no matter where you are, time to put aside your differences, ideological,racial etc, it starts with one person, YOU. ALL LIVES MATTER,it doesn't matter who you are or where your from, speak it mean it, words have power, they can build or destroy empires, how many of you got the guts to try and make a difference?