Congratulations people of Crimea

[thegreekdog]

On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population

You give us way too much credit. Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans couldn't point to Ukraine on a map.

[rishaed]

On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population

You give us way too much credit. Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans couldn't point to Ukraine on a map.

I donate my 500 Saxbucks to TGD for this post.

[tzor]

China is growing and will at least become a dominant force within its own region. Russia's only power is its SC veto.

China is like a souffle; disturb it strongly enough and it will collapse.
(China's future in part depends on a orderly collapse, the number of companies that literally need to fail in order for the system to succeed long term is staggering.)

Russia has significant power in terms of natural gas to Europe.
(Russia is to Europe as the Middle East was to the United States)

The more things happens, the more the non participant has a chance to win. Seriously, India's potential has never been brighter. (Even though it might be dimmer than a proto-star.)

[AndyDufresne]

AndyDufresne

Goranz wrote: Mumbledy bumbledy

this its short oppinion of any post who are not pro-US

Qwert, it's okay you can't understand my posts. If you look around, I'm not a thumping patriot for the good ol' US of A in the Off Topics. I just find your disdain for everything associated with USA so comical. Your tunnel vision is absurd, and I love it. Keep it up!

Long live the independent republic of Qwert! May the he throw off the shackles of his oppression.


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population

You give us way too much credit. Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans couldn't point to Ukraine on a map.

Cheering loudly for a political commercial does not require a decent understanding of geography.

[DoomYoshi]

According to the Ukrainian Constitution (Chapter 1, Article 2).

The sovereignty of Ukraine extends throughout its entire territory.
Ukraine is a unitary state.
The territory of Ukraine within its present border is indivisible and inviolable.

Compare this to say, the Slovakian constitution which has a similar article (Section One, Article 3):

(1) The territory of the Slovak Republic is integral and indivisible.
(2) Borders of the Slovak Republic may be changed only by a constitutional law.

The Slovakian (and many other) Constitution has a system by which borders can change. No such change can occur in Ukraine.

Now, some may argue that the Kyiv rebellion was illegal due to (article 5):

No one shall usurp state power.

Based on that same ground, the Crimean revolution is equally illegal.

The US&A has fought for many years to teach that the Constitution is the only thing with authority equal to the Bible. It behooves the Americans to put their money (and ICBMs) where their mouth is. Not attacking Ukraine is unconstitutional.

There is a reason every former USSR republic has an inviolable borders clause in their constitution. They know that the Russians will gobble them up as soon as they can.

[Pope Joan]

You clearly dont understand current Russia, you still consider that Russia is stuck in Yeltsin time .

I am afraid I do once upon a time I was a little Russian girl...

What happen you forget how will Russians react? Or Russians are not your people?

Good Question! I am ambivalent//postmodern on the question of nationality and have more than one of them myself I'd rather be with decent people anywhere in the world than with morons, who may share the same nationality as me.

If current Ukrainian government does something else that Russia wont like, next equation will be "Russian intervention in South-Eastern Ukraine".

There is a remote possibility of this. It is not clear how to do it bloodlessly and there is no strategic need for this either. You can see how Russia behaves to the three breakaway states Abkhasia, South Ossetia, Transdnistria that are not strategically important. Two of them exist since the collapse of USSR and made numerous approaches to Russia to be annexed...

Putin's actions in Ukraine is supported by ~90% of Russian population, thus the equation. On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population. Anyway residence of EU consider Ukraine as land with heavy Russian influence.

Where did you get your first figure from? Anyway, it is a honeymoon period after short bloodless victory. Nicholas-2 also saw his popularity rising in 1914 but see what happened to him in 1918 Symbolic 100 years ago, eh?

The second figure is strange as well. There is no coherent responce//action so far, so even hawks would find it difficult to support headless chickens

What will western leaders do in case of Russian intervention in South-Eastern Ukraine? Mostly talk and maybe few economic sanctions but every economic sanctions will fade away from 1-st of September 2014(By then the gas must start flowing 24/7 threw Ukrainian pipes towards EU). Even US secretary Kerry was threatening with much harder response for Crimea's merger with Russia but in the end he chicken out.

While EU is, indeed, toothless, but dont misunderestimate the US responce. The second set of US sanctions bites. They closed any chance to process dollars to Bank Rossija, the house bank of Kremlin elite; and they sanctioned most of Putin's oligarchs (i.e. the guys who became rich during Putin's time and mostly due to close ties with Putin --- they are probably the only guys who have influence on him). Funny enough, most of them have various EU passports These are the type of sanctions they developed to pursue Al-Qaeda after 9/11. They also used them (successfully) against Iran. If they deploy against Russia with a typical American determination, it will hurt...

Remember that Putin's impressive election victories are partly due to the "managed democracy", for instance, denying anyone who can poll more than 20% registration (Kasyanov in 2004, Yavlinsky in 2012). I have many not at all pro-Putin friends who voted Putin in 2012 because the rest of the field are dangerous clowns...

[DoomYoshi]

Er, scratch that last point. Georgia is practically begging for an invasion:

. The alienation of the territory of Georgia shall be prohibited. The state frontiers shall be
changed only by a bilateral agreement concluded with the neighbouring State.

Oh, wait, that war already happened?

In all seriousness, I just checked every one of the "Post-Soviet States". They all have the inviolable borders clause except Latvia.

Outside of the Evil Empire's claws, constitutions have that clause in 50% of cases.

[GoranZ]

If current Ukrainian government does something else that Russia wont like, next equation will be "Russian intervention in South-Eastern Ukraine".

There is a remote possibility of this. It is not clear how to do it bloodlessly and there is no strategic need for this either. You can see how Russia behaves to the three breakaway states Abkhasia, South Ossetia, Transdnistria that are not strategically important. Two of them exist since the collapse of USSR and made numerous approaches to Russia to be annexed...

I dont think that the possibility is that remote... Tho I agree that currently Russia has problems how to achieve the goals without bloodshed or destruction, especially the second one. And probably the main problem is to get whole Ukraine undestroyed so there wont be needs to rebuild it for decades to come.

Putin's actions in Ukraine is supported by ~90% of Russian population, thus the equation. On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population. Anyway residence of EU consider Ukraine as land with heavy Russian influence.

Where did you get your first figure from? Anyway, it is a honeymoon period after short bloodless victory. Nicholas-2 also saw his popularity rising in 1914 but see what happened to him in 1918 Symbolic 100 years ago, eh?

The second figure is strange as well. There is no coherent responce//action so far, so even hawks would find it difficult to support headless chickens

Both figures are from last week news...

What will western leaders do in case of Russian intervention in South-Eastern Ukraine? Mostly talk and maybe few economic sanctions but every economic sanctions will fade away from 1-st of September 2014(By then the gas must start flowing 24/7 threw Ukrainian pipes towards EU). Even US secretary Kerry was threatening with much harder response for Crimea's merger with Russia but in the end he chicken out.

While EU is, indeed, toothless, but dont misunderestimate the US responce. The second set of US sanctions bites. They closed any chance to process dollars to Bank Rossija, the house bank of Kremlin elite; and they sanctioned most of Putin's oligarchs (i.e. the guys who became rich during Putin's time and mostly due to close ties with Putin --- they are probably the only guys who have influence on him). Funny enough, most of them have various EU passports These are the type of sanctions they developed to pursue Al-Qaeda after 9/11. They also used them (successfully) against Iran. If they deploy against Russia with a typical American determination, it will hurt...

Well if EU wasn't barking(it doesn't have absolutely any ability to bite) by now Russia and US would have made an agreement.
Blocking of Mastercard and Visa for Bank Rossija(and potentially for other banks in Russia) is good move atm but on long run it will hurt both Mastercard and Visa. Two potential moves out of which 1 should already have been done already.
1. If MasterCard or Visa want to operate in Russia their main servers for Russian costumers must be on Russian soil and controlled from Russian(similarly as Saudi Arabia did with Blackberry).
2. Make similar credit card system as MasterCard or Visa, connect it to intermediary service as paypal/google wallet/skrill and ban both Mastercard and Visa for life. Same reason as google is not operating in China.
But I guess Russian leadership will learn as they advance
Sanctions against Iran worked after several years, but in order to be successful against Russia must work within 6 months. I dont think that will happen. And I dont think that it will be simple or cheep task to turn down Russian gas and oil, especially for EU costumers now and in the future... Tho US doesn't care a lot about EU

@DoomYoshi... You are wasting your time m8. All of us know that you are very much AFRAID from Russia, so you cant expect to achieve anything with your posts. The problem with Crimea is solved for very long time. Ukraine(and you) can dream for returning it back.

[Qwert]

AndyDufresne

Goranz wrote: Mumbledy bumbledy

this its short oppinion of any post who are not pro-US

Qwert, it's okay you can't understand my posts. If you look around, I'm not a thumping patriot for the good ol' US of A in the Off Topics. I just find your disdain for everything associated with USA so comical. Your tunnel vision is absurd, and I love it. Keep it up!

Long live the independent republic of Qwert! May the he throw off the shackles of his oppression.


--Andy

oh, c mon,, i have disdain for everything associated with USA?
If we talk about sport,music, movies, series,entertainment, then its have a lot what i like from US.

Unfortunately foreign behavior of US Government ( not people ) are quite hostile and they pressure all countries to play, how they want. Even mine country was bombarded, and mine home its 400 km away from Kosovo. So i live in Northern Province of Vojvodina, and US make bombardment of this area to (where % of Albanians are 0,12), and even i saw exploded bomb (US bomb).

But from your post, i understand that you also disdain Foreign police of US, so we agree on this

Long live independence of Republic of LAkotah and Republic of Texas and Alaska

[GoranZ]

Long live independence of Republic of LAkotah and Republic of Texas and Alaska

I must make a correction to Qwert's post... Alaska will go to Russia

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petiti ... a/SFG1ppfN

@DoomYoshi... Be afraid, be very afraid, Russians are coming next to your You can run but you can not hide

[thegreekdog]

On the other hand EU/US politics towards Ukraine is supported by 15-20% of EU/US population

You give us way too much credit. Fifteen to twenty percent of Americans couldn't point to Ukraine on a map.

Cheering loudly for a political commercial does not require a decent understanding of geography.

f*ck you. I'm not giving back my Saxbucks.

[patches70]

You would think these idiots would learn to talk on secure phones after all that's happened. But I guess not. A new conversation has been leaked (I think we can guess who leaked it) between Ice Queen herself, Yulia Tymoshenko and parliamentarian Nestor Shufrych in which Tymoshenko says this about the 8 million ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine and what is to be done about them-
"They must be killed with nuclear weapons."

Seriously.

She also goes into detail about how much she'd like to machine gun Russians in the head and claims that once she gets power she can get the whole world to rise against Russia and leave all of Russia as nothing but "scorched Earth", presumably with all the Russian people scorched along with.

With Tymoshenko a leading contender to become President in the soon to be elections and that she is the ideological leader of the Ukraine "revolution", is it any wonder that ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine are so nervous?

Tymoshenko confirmed (via twitter) that the below conversation did indeed take place though she disputes that she said the ethnic Russians should be nuked.

The more information that comes to light about these people who have seized power the more I can understand from the Russian's point of view. It may very well be that Putin is actually saving lives by intervening than what would happen if he stood idly by and let these people do what they want.

Not to mention, Tymoshenko's comments give Putin all the justification and provocation he needs if somewhere down the line some radical Tymoshenko follower starts capping ethnic Russians in the Ukraine.



Sad indeed how well people have been played into automatically assuming that the "revolution" in Kiev was somehow a noble effort or that sane people would be taking charge. This chick is bat shit crazy.




And Tymoshenko's admission that the above conversation did take place though she disputes that she said that 8 million ethnic Russians need to be nuked is on her twitter account. I'd post it but I am not sure how to if someone wants to tell me how to do it. You'll have to have it translated, I did, and it says this in Ukraine and the English translation as best I can accomplish-

Розмова була, але про 8 млн росіян в Україні - монтаж. Насправді сказала: росіяни в Україні - це українці.Привіт ФСБ:) Вибачте за нецензурне

The conversation was, but for 8 million Russians in Ukraine - installation. In fact, said Russians in Ukraine - is ukrayintsi.Pryvit FSB Sorry for the obscene

(Yes, she used a smiley face on her twitter post)


She says now that she meant the Russian soldiers need to be nuked, but in the conversation she answers- "They have to be nuked" to the question- "what should we do now with the 8 million Russians that stayed in Ukraine. They are outcasts".

She made no distinction, and there aren't 8 million Russian soldiers in Crimea. But there are 8 million ethnic Russians living across the Ukraine.

Judge for yourself I guess, time will tell more I'm sure.

[GoranZ]

Розмова була, але про 8 млн росіян в Україні - монтаж. Насправді сказала: росіяни в Україні - це українці.Привіт ФСБ:) Вибачте за нецензурне

The conversation was, but for 8 million Russians in Ukraine - installation. In fact, said Russians in Ukraine - is ukrayintsi.Pryvit FSB Sorry for the obscene

(Yes, she used a smiley face on her twitter post)

More correct translation: (I'm no expert in Ukrainian or Russian, but we have Russian princess on the site, she can be more precise then me )
The conversation did happen, but the part with 8 million Russians in Ukraine - is fabricated. In fact Russians in Ukraine - are Ukrainians. Greetings FSB Sorry for the inconvenience

Someone needs medications. For the best for all Ukrainians and Russians. Interesting but if someone threatens 8 million Americans I think that Obama will authorize the use of nuclear weapons.

What can I say... Hopefully everything will end up like Crimea.

[Juan_Bottom]

[patches70]

Розмова була, але про 8 млн росіян в Україні - монтаж. Насправді сказала: росіяни в Україні - це українці.Привіт ФСБ:) Вибачте за нецензурне

The conversation was, but for 8 million Russians in Ukraine - installation. In fact, said Russians in Ukraine - is ukrayintsi.Pryvit FSB Sorry for the obscene

(Yes, she used a smiley face on her twitter post)

More correct translation: (I'm no expert in Ukrainian or Russian, but we have Russian princess on the site, she can be more precise then me )
The conversation did happen, but the part with 8 million Russians in Ukraine - is fabricated. In fact Russians in Ukraine - are Ukrainians. Greetings FSB Sorry for the inconvenience

Someone needs medications. For the best for all Ukrainians and Russians. Interesting but if someone threatens 8 million Americans I think that Obama will authorize the use of nuclear weapons.

What can I say... Hopefully everything will end up like Crimea.

GoranZ, thanks for the clarification. Can you have your Russian princess listen to the video and confirm that the translation is correct? I can only go by what the sub titles say they are saying. It would be nice to have someone who speaks the language (if indeed your friend does speak said language) confirm that it truly is what they are saying.

Thanks, sir.

[t-o-m]

It's about time somebody
mentioned Hitler.

I forgot I was on
the internet.

[Qwert]

Breaking News!

G8 summit, become G7 summit when Obama and hes allies , vote to remove Russian chair out from Summit room, and place her in corridor to the courtyard , before arrival of Russian member.
But G7 members are not aware ,that earlier Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov , decide that Russian chair in former G8 are to much expensive and he put chair for sell on e-bay with starting price of 1 ruble .
When they get this news, US and hes allies get caught on surprise , and they thought that Russia will move back out from Crimea, when they saw hes chair in corridor. After 5 minute of silence, G7 summit are brief interrupted, and members go to closed consultations , to find new way to force Russia to leave Crimea.

more news soon.......

[t-o-m]

Breaking News!

G8 summit, become G7 summit when Obama and hes allies , vote to remove Russian chair out from Summit room, and place her in corridor to the courtyard , before arrival of Russian member.
But G7 members are not aware ,that earlier Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov , decide that Russian chair in former G8 are to much expensive and he put chair for sell on e-bay with starting price of 1 ruble .
When they get this news, US and hes allies get caught on surprise , and they thought that Russia will move back out from Crimea, when they saw hes chair in corridor. After 5 minute of silence, G7 summit are brief interrupted, and members go to closed consultations , to find new way to force Russia to leave Crimea.

more news soon.......

Qwert. It took me a while to 'get' what you wrote. Now that I understand, I've spelled it out for the rest of us.

[GoranZ]

GoranZ, thanks for the clarification. Can you have your Russian princess listen to the video and confirm that the translation is correct? I can only go by what the sub titles say they are saying. It would be nice to have someone who speaks the language (if indeed your friend does speak said language) confirm that it truly is what they are saying.

Thanks, sir.

Done... I dropped a line that we need her(Pope Joan) expertise

It's about time somebody
mentioned Hitler.

I forgot I was on
the internet.

Yes, someone did mention Hitler but he mixed some pictures(Probably they are also mixed in his brain, I wonder if doctors are able to help him )

And here is the man that is willing to fight every single living Nazi...

[saxitoxin]

The Russian Federation today approved personal sanctions against more than a dozen officials of the right-wing Stephen Harper regime of Canada for plotting crimes against world peace. Most notable:

- Sen. Raynell Andreychuk (Conservative - Saskatchewan)
- MP Andrew Scheer (Conservative - Saskatchewan)
- MP Dean Allison (Conservative - Ontario)
- MP Ted Opitz (Conservative - Ontario)
- MP James Bezan (Conservative - Manitoba)
- MP Paul Dewar (NDP - Ontario)
- MP Irwin Cotler (Liberal - Quebec)
- MP Chrystia "Julius Streicher" Freeland (Liberal - Ontario) *
- Christine Hogan (assistant to PM for foreign affairs)
- Wayne G.Wouters (clerk of the Privy Council)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/russian ... -1.2584137

* Chrystia was former editor-in-charge at Reuters at the time Reuters was caught releasing staged photos during the Russian humanitarian intervention in South Ossetia.

[saxitoxin]

You would think these idiots would learn to talk on secure phones after all that's happened. But I guess not. A new conversation has been leaked (I think we can guess who leaked it) between Ice Queen herself, Yulia Tymoshenko and parliamentarian Nestor Shufrych in which Tymoshenko says this about the 8 million ethnic Russians living in the Ukraine and what is to be done about them-
"They must be killed with nuclear weapons."

This is inconvenient. How will we respond to reporters asking why we're supporting this woman? Oh wait, we don't need to!

[patches70]

Haha, that's funny in a sick kind of way, Sax. Seems that people don't want Americans to know whats going on, except for the State approved news.

[Pope Joan]

Розмова була, але про 8 млн росіян в Україні - монтаж. Насправді сказала: росіяни в Україні - це українці.Привіт ФСБ:) Вибачте за нецензурне

The conversation was, but for 8 million Russians in Ukraine - installation. In fact, said Russians in Ukraine - is ukrayintsi.Pryvit FSB Sorry for the obscene

(Yes, she used a smiley face on her twitter post)

More correct translation: (I'm no expert in Ukrainian or Russian, but we have Russian princess on the site, she can be more precise then me )
The conversation did happen, but the part with 8 million Russians in Ukraine - is fabricated. In fact Russians in Ukraine - are Ukrainians. Greetings FSB Sorry for the inconvenience.

GoranZ did a good job. Here is my version:

The conversation took place, but the part about 8 million Russians in Ukraine is edited. I did say instead: Russians in Ukraine are Ukrainians. Greetings to FSB Sorry for the slang.

If you take away the disputed part about shooting 8 million Russians with nuclear weapons, most of the rest is mildly potent, yet she uses the k-word for Russians http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/katsap, which is considered deeply offensive. A western politician would be sacked and discredited for using a similar term for a national minority. That is what she apologises for in the tweet.

I have added my translation of the whole conversation. IMHO, it deserves a separate thread:
http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=203513

[GoranZ]

If we analyze the words that Putin is using and the words that Tymoshenko is using, it will turn out that Putin is a saint compared to Tymoshenko