Congratulations people of Crimea

[DoomYoshi]

He has a selection of lines he's memorized from the Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News articles on Ukraine that he parrots.

How much would you appreciate America if the only legal news sources were Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News?

Freedom of Media is a beautiful thing.

Try this: everytime you read something critical about Obama, vanquish that source from your list of sources. When you ruin out of news, you will get a feel for what Putin has created and creates.

show

[saxitoxin]

He has a selection of lines he's memorized from the Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News articles on Ukraine that he parrots.

How much would you appreciate America if the only legal news sources were Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News?

Freedom of Media is a beautiful thing.

Try this: everytime you read something critical about Obama, vanquish that source from your list of sources. When you ruin out of news, you will get a feel for what Putin has created and creates.

Or I could just ask Phil Donahue, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Anwar Al-Awlaki (if he were still alive), Daniel Berrigan, or Bradley Manning.

[Juan_Bottom]

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

[saxitoxin]

The execution of Anwar al-Awlaki's 14 year-old son, the torture of Bradley Manning, the pursuit of Snodwen and Assange, the destruction of Libya, wiretapping international citizens, support for Ukrainian neo-Nazis, etc., all appear to be paying off for the regime ...

Looking more broadly at the president and the United States' image in the world, more Americans now say the image of the U.S. has grown worse (43 percent) since Mr. Obama became president, rather than better (32 percent). One in five thinks his presidency has had no effect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-d ... ne-crisis/

Meanwhile ...

A majority of 61 percent of Americans do not think the U.S. has a responsibility to do something about the situation between Russia and Ukraine, nearly twice as many as the 32 percent who think it does. There is widespread bipartisan agreement on this. More specifically, 65 percent of Americans do not think the U.S. should provide military aid and equipment to Ukraine in response to Russia's actions, while only 26 percent think the U.S. should. Majorities of Republicans (59 percent), Democrats (67 percent), and independents (69 percent) are opposed to providing military aid and equipment to Ukraine.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-s ... n-ukraine/

Americans are mostly sane. It's their rulers and the rulers chicken-hawk harem-boys who are crazy.

[Qwert]

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

are you serious? Russia causes another European War? If you believe in all what West propaganda serve to you, then you are very naive person.
Amazing how people forget all lies what say US government, for purpose to invade and bombard other countries , and people still continue to believe .

[saxitoxin]

Imagine if Occupy Wall Street were protesting that the only way social equality could be achieved is if the U.S. president were overthrown and replaced by Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan. People would die laughing. That's what just happened in Ukraine.

http://www.dw.de/an-easy-victory-ahead- ... a-17531298

A "grassroots" movement that doesn't introduce any new, revolutionary personalities from the people. It just pushes into power the same-old, same-old, corrupt oligarchs to treat Ukraine as their personal playground.

Your choice of corrupt billionaires for Ukrainian president in the upcoming election:

1. Poroshenko - billionaire banker / candy maker / professional politician who owns Ukraine's equivalent of FOX News that was instrumental in helping to organize "protests"
2. Tymoshenko - former president who was estimated to have looted 20% of the nation's GDP

(Note the above Deutsche Welle story quotes the NID/IRI's CHESNO astroturfing grop who say Poroshenko is clean ... which is funny since 2 years ago he told the BBC he used to bribe Ukrainian officials to enact policies that would help grow his vast corporate empire.)

[saxitoxin]

are you serious? Russia causes another European War? If you believe in all what West propaganda serve to you, then you are very naive person.
Amazing how people forget all lies what say US government, for purpose to invade and bombard other countries , and people still continue to believe .

It is hilarious. The U.S. has started 4 wars in the last 10 years slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people but there are still a handful of dull, low-information citizens who are running around like Chicken Little screaming "Russia is about to start a war!" The Ministry of Truth didn't have it this good.

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me three times, ???
Fool me four times, ???
Fool me FIVE times ...

[Juan_Bottom]

I'd rather be compared to war-mongers like Churchill, or Adams than to people like Neville Chamberlain and Charles Lindbergh.

Everyone knows that you have a lengthy trail of post praising Russia and it's history, while also speaking down on just about every Western nation, particularly the US. You've posted that the West would be trampled by the East if it ever came down to war. You are satisfied with America's war with the Nazi's, but any other fight conducted by the US is a war crime to you. The people of Syria are criminals for rising against their government (in which they have no representation) but the people of Crimea are more than justified in their secessionist activities (from a government they are already semi-autonomous from).

You've drawn comparisons to the Serbian conflict in Kosovo, which only now makes sense because GoranZ has just reveled that there are Russian-controlled Serbian Paramilitary units active in Crimea.



This is what it is I guess. I realize you're not a real person, but for those people here who think that you are; at best you're an appeaser like Neville Chamberlain, saying "let Russia have this place and that, and then they will stop." Eventually, war will come when Russia is in the best position for it.
But at worse you're like Charles Linbergh, saying "You can't stop Russia. It's best if you just stay out of it America. Russia is your friend." And war will come when Russia is in the best position for it.

I say we need to isolate Russia and put an immediate stop to this resurgence of Russian Nationalism. There is nothing more dangerous for our future than the rise of Nationalism from any source. It always leads to war.

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

are you serious? Russia causes another European War? If you believe in all what West propaganda serve to you, then you are very naive person.
Amazing how people forget all lies what say US government, for purpose to invade and bombard other countries , and people still continue to believe .

You know what Qwert? Just because you are a Serbian does not mean that I blame you for the current Serbian and Russian occupation of the Crimea.

So why is it that you continue to blame me as an American for the invasion of Iraq? I was still in school when it happened. No voting power or anything. I was a kid when it happened. To borrow a line from history, 9-11 reawakened the sleeping giant. President Bush and our Neo-Con government re-directed the surge of nationalism and feelings of betrayal and focused it on Iraq. So when I am trying to say that territorial acquisition and nationalism by Russia is a bad thing, maybe you should consider that point. I've seen it. I've seen American flags on every porch and heard country songs on the radio twanging about gettin' Saddam because America is #1.
As a Serbian, you don't see nationalism as a problem???


If you're going to sit behind a PC and say Russia can annex all the territory that it wants and it wont lead to a war, then you've forgotten the lessons of pretty much the entirety of European history.

[patches70]

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

are you serious? Russia causes another European War? If you believe in all what West propaganda serve to you, then you are very naive person.
Amazing how people forget all lies what say US government, for purpose to invade and bombard other countries , and people still continue to believe .

No, Qwert, the JB's are in the minority by far. The JB's yell the loudest but everyone just laughs at them because of the continued contradictory and hypocrisy they constantly espouse.

Like when Kerry said-
"You just don’t in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext."
we laugh at his idiocy because enough of us remember.

Just like most people ignore the nut job on the corner screaming "The End is Nigh!" so it is that most people ignore JB.

Have a bit of hope in the American people, we aren't the animals that our politicians are. We are sane, the politicians and their useful idiots, not so much.
For the most part, Americans are like pretty much the majority of people on the planet. We just want to live in peace, raise our families. Most of us have no desire at all to control other peoples.
The politicians on the other hand, they make their living by trying to control everyone else. We know what they are and for the most part the average American's default position is that they are full of shit. People like JB have to strive very hard indeed to overcome this and for the most part fail miserably because most of us just don't take them seriously.

Which is both good and bad in ways. But it is what it is, JB is not indicative to the Average American. He is the extreme.

[saxitoxin]

I'd rather be compared to war-mongers like Churchill

No one here has compared you to Winston Churchill.

We're comparing you to Homer Simpson.

[patches70]

I'd rather be compared to war-mongers like Churchill

No one here has compared you to Winston Churchill.

We're comparing you to Homer Simpson.

+100 Saxibucks

[DoomYoshi]

He has a selection of lines he's memorized from the Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News articles on Ukraine that he parrots.

How much would you appreciate America if the only legal news sources were Buzzfeed, E Online and FOX News?

Freedom of Media is a beautiful thing.

Try this: everytime you read something critical about Obama, vanquish that source from your list of sources. When you ruin out of news, you will get a feel for what Putin has created and creates.

Or I could just ask Phil Donahue, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, Anwar Al-Awlaki (if he were still alive), Daniel Berrigan, or Bradley Manning.

Uh, were they in nWo during the Wolfpack years?

[BigBallinStalin]

I say we need to isolate Russia and put an immediate stop to this resurgence of Russian Nationalism. There is nothing more dangerous for our future than the rise of Nationalism from any source. It always leads to war.

(1) Would you apply the same strategy to China? It has "rising nationalism" and will very likely take the disputed "rocks and reefs" of the South and East China Seas within roughly 10-20 years (as soon as its 'blue-water' navy is developed).


If "rising nationalism" always leads to war, then... (2) how do you know this? Did US nationalism rise in 2002-2003 then sharply declined for 9 years, then suddenly rise when the US attacked Libya in 2012? Don't you think you're overlooking some very important variables?*

*Note the similarity in your argument with this one: the recent financial crisis was caused by greediness. By implication, greediness sharply increased from 2003-2007, then what? Sharply fell during the recession? Then resumed growing as the economy resumed its growth?

(3) Aside from the theoretical, how about the practical problem: how do you decrease Nationalism in a foreign country?


(4) Aren't you overlooking the constraints on possible war--e.g. loss of international trade (thus severe economic collapse) and Nuclear Weapons? How would the logic of mutually assured destruction not constrain Russia?

[BigBallinStalin]

Or, let's be very consistent:

Syria recently had a resurgence in nationalism, which was strongly reflected from the Free Syrian Army. Why weren't you calling to isolate Syria and put an immediate stop to rising Syrian nationalism? "There's nothing more dangerous for our future than the rise of Nationalism from any source. It always leads to war."

Instead, doesn't provoking conflict increase the chances of war? How about fighting proxy wars and placing nuclear missiles closer to the enemy? Has the history of the Cold War--specifically the Cuban Missile Crisis--influenced you in any way?

(JB sounds like one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff telling Kennedy to bomb Cuba, which would ultimately lead to a nuclear war with Russia).

[Qwert]

I'd rather be compared to war-mongers like Churchill, or Adams than to people like Neville Chamberlain and Charles Lindbergh.

Everyone knows that you have a lengthy trail of post praising Russia and it's history, while also speaking down on just about every Western nation, particularly the US. You've posted that the West would be trampled by the East if it ever came down to war. You are satisfied with America's war with the Nazi's, but any other fight conducted by the US is a war crime to you. The people of Syria are criminals for rising against their government (in which they have no representation) but the people of Crimea are more than justified in their secessionist activities (from a government they are already semi-autonomous from).

You've drawn comparisons to the Serbian conflict in Kosovo, which only now makes sense because GoranZ has just reveled that there are Russian-controlled Serbian Paramilitary units active in Crimea.



This is what it is I guess. I realize you're not a real person, but for those people here who think that you are; at best you're an appeaser like Neville Chamberlain, saying "let Russia have this place and that, and then they will stop." Eventually, war will come when Russia is in the best position for it.
But at worse you're like Charles Linbergh, saying "You can't stop Russia. It's best if you just stay out of it America. Russia is your friend." And war will come when Russia is in the best position for it.

I say we need to isolate Russia and put an immediate stop to this resurgence of Russian Nationalism. There is nothing more dangerous for our future than the rise of Nationalism from any source. It always leads to war.

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

are you serious? Russia causes another European War? If you believe in all what West propaganda serve to you, then you are very naive person.
Amazing how people forget all lies what say US government, for purpose to invade and bombard other countries , and people still continue to believe .

You know what Qwert? Just because you are a Serbian does not mean that I blame you for the current Serbian and Russian occupation of the Crimea.

So why is it that you continue to blame me as an American for the invasion of Iraq? I was still in school when it happened. No voting power or anything. I was a kid when it happened. To borrow a line from history, 9-11 reawakened the sleeping giant. President Bush and our Neo-Con government re-directed the surge of nationalism and feelings of betrayal and focused it on Iraq. So when I am trying to say that territorial acquisition and nationalism by Russia is a bad thing, maybe you should consider that point. I've seen it. I've seen American flags on every porch and heard country songs on the radio twanging about gettin' Saddam because America is #1.
As a Serbian, you don't see nationalism as a problem???


If you're going to sit behind a PC and say Russia can annex all the territory that it wants and it wont lead to a war, then you've forgotten the lessons of pretty much the entirety of European history.

o boy, , Serbian and Russian Occupation of Crimea . If you can have chance to read mine news sites, then you will know that our Serbian "Paramilitary" forces had FULL 5 members, and they hold one checkpoint in Crimea ( this its what i read in mine news,, and i dont know how much West propaganda multiply this number, when you get impression that Serbian "nationalist" occupy Crimea). You really need to not believe in all what you see in West news, and also you can not find any word where i blame you for Iraq Occupation . What i try to say, its that Russia brake international law, but US Government (not you or other normal US citizens) all ready make international law pointless, brake hem several times before. And im going to sit behind PC, because Russia will not occupy Europe , maybe just split Ukraine on half (pro-Russian side will go to Russia) and this will be end of drama. Of course you can take some weapon, join army, and try to fight against EVIL Russian Empire, its your free choice.

[saxitoxin]

o boy, , Serbian and Russian Occupation of Crimea . If you can have chance to read mine news sites, then you will know that our Serbian "Paramilitary" forces had FULL 5 members, and they hold one checkpoint in Crimea ( this its what i read in mine news,, and i dont know how much West propaganda multiply this number, when you get impression that Serbian "nationalist" occupy Crimea).

+500 SaxBucks

Western media write their stories to make it sound like there's a Serbian division parked in Simferopol. But if you look at the pictures that go with their stories it's all the same 5 guys, just photographed from different angles ... thousands of Serbian troops in Crimea but they can only get a picture of these same 5 dudes on different days:

(L-R): Bruce Lee, Timberlake, Bad Santa, The Woodsman, Marty Meth


Global Post: same guys, different picture
Syndney Morning Herald: same guys, different day
Reuters: there they are again
Reuters, 1 week later:still the same dudes
Vocativ: someone get this guy an agent!

Western media are notoriously terrible at basic math. In 1990 TIME and CBS News reported 60,000 people had been killed in Bucharest by the Army and Police. Those reports led to calls by hysterical people like Juan_Bottom for the U.S. to attack Romania (fortunately there was no oil and/or natural gas in Romania so no invasion happened). Within 2 months the final death toll had been adjusted to just 71! (later confirmed by the EU)

[thegreekdog]

Kremlin's Media 'Guidelines' on Crimea Leaked Online
http://www.businessinsider.com/kremlins ... mea-2014-3

And on that point, everyone's favorite activist group Anonymous claim to have hacked the Kremlin's media instructions about what to say on the occupation of Ukraine.


Vladimir Putin ‘wants to regain Finland’ for Russia, adviser says
The Independent and other news organizations are also reporting on the pattern that I am warning about. We have a nationalistic people who have been prepared by state media for a return to the power that they lost only 20 years ago. Russia is occupying and reclaiming territory from peaceful nations, the same as Hitler's Germany in the late 30's. Is it just a matter of time before Russia causes another European war?

Links confirmed and accurate.

The execution of Anwar al-Awlaki's 14 year-old son, the torture of Bradley Manning, the pursuit of Snodwen and Assange, the destruction of Libya, wiretapping international citizens, support for Ukrainian neo-Nazis, etc., all appear to be paying off for the regime ...

Looking more broadly at the president and the United States' image in the world, more Americans now say the image of the U.S. has grown worse (43 percent) since Mr. Obama became president, rather than better (32 percent). One in five thinks his presidency has had no effect.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-d ... ne-crisis/

Meanwhile ...

A majority of 61 percent of Americans do not think the U.S. has a responsibility to do something about the situation between Russia and Ukraine, nearly twice as many as the 32 percent who think it does. There is widespread bipartisan agreement on this. More specifically, 65 percent of Americans do not think the U.S. should provide military aid and equipment to Ukraine in response to Russia's actions, while only 26 percent think the U.S. should. Majorities of Republicans (59 percent), Democrats (67 percent), and independents (69 percent) are opposed to providing military aid and equipment to Ukraine.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-most-s ... n-ukraine/

Americans are mostly sane. It's their rulers and the rulers chicken-hawk harem-boys who are crazy.

Links confirmd and accurate.

[thegreekdog]

Imagine if Occupy Wall Street were protesting that the only way social equality could be achieved is if the U.S. president were overthrown and replaced by Bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan. People would die laughing. That's what just happened in Ukraine.

http://www.dw.de/an-easy-victory-ahead- ... a-17531298

A "grassroots" movement that doesn't introduce any new, revolutionary personalities from the people. It just pushes into power the same-old, same-old, corrupt oligarchs to treat Ukraine as their personal playground.

Your choice of corrupt billionaires for Ukrainian president in the upcoming election:

1. Poroshenko - billionaire banker / candy maker / professional politician who owns Ukraine's equivalent of FOX News that was instrumental in helping to organize "protests"
2. Tymoshenko - former president who was estimated to have looted 20% of the nation's GDP

(Note the above Deutsche Welle story quotes the NID/IRI's CHESNO astroturfing grop who say Poroshenko is clean ... which is funny since 2 years ago he told the BBC he used to bribe Ukrainian officials to enact policies that would help grow his vast corporate empire.)

Link confirmed and accurate.

[Juan_Bottom]

o boy, , Serbian and Russian Occupation of Crimea . If you can have chance to read mine news sites, then you will know that our Serbian "Paramilitary" forces had FULL 5 members, and they hold one checkpoint in Crimea ( this its what i read in mine news,, and i dont know how much West propaganda multiply this number, when you get impression that Serbian "nationalist" occupy Crimea). You really need to not believe in all what you see in West news, and also you can not find any word where i blame you for Iraq Occupation . What i try to say, its that Russia brake international law, but US Government (not you or other normal US citizens) all ready make international law pointless, brake hem several times before. And im going to sit behind PC, because Russia will not occupy Europe , maybe just split Ukraine on half (pro-Russian side will go to Russia) and this will be end of drama. Of course you can take some weapon, join army, and try to fight against EVIL Russian Empire, its your free choice.

Ok now I get what you are saying. Because the US broke law, then there are no laws. If one person breaks the speed limit, then we shouldn't have speed limits.

Putin has already annexed two chunks of territory from other sovereign country's, and has expressed interest in regaining others. You know, Hitler split Poland in half. He also split Czechoslovakia in half. I have no interest in seeing an arms race in Eastern Europe again.

Russian news has up-played the importance of their multinational occupational force, for the same reason they played-up their "referendum observers" from all over Europe. Over and over again this conversation has dwindled into "your news is propaganda, but mine isn't." You know what? I don't give a f*ck what you guys think about local news at 6. I'm not quoting local news at 6. What I am doing is talking about 2 things, the first is basic history, and the second is that it's wrong for Russia to steal land away from other countries. You guys are relentless in your apathy. I'm talking about "Russia has the Ukraine disarmed and trapped in a pincher," and you tweedles come back with "yeah but America broke the laws."

Western media write their stories to make it sound like there's a Serbian division parked in Simferopol. But if you look at the pictures that go with their stories it's all the same 5 guys, just photographed from different angles ... thousands of Serbian troops in Crimea but they can only get a picture of these same 5 dudes on different days:

Where? Where are these stories?
The closest thing to that which I have seen is a story pointing out that Russia is taking help from Serbs linked to war crimes in Serbia.

[Juan_Bottom]

Also, let me just remind all of you that the United States has already said that it will not resort to war to protect the Ukraine. If Russia were to attack the Ukraine, or occupy more territory, then nobody would raise a gun to help.


May 25th. That's when the Ukrainian presidential election will take place. The Russians want to split Ukraine apart before that happens.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... vrov-paris

"Frankly speaking, we don't see any other way for the steady development of the Ukrainian state apart from as a federation," he added. Under the Russian plan, which Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin reportedly discussed in a phone call initiated by Moscow on Friday, each region would have control of its economy, taxes, culture, language, education and "external economic and cultural connections with neighbouring countries or regions," Lavrov said.

"Given the proportion of native Russians [in Ukraine], we propose this and we are sure there is no other way."

[mrswdk]

'There are lots of Russians in Crimea/Ukraine' isn't a very convincing reason for supporting Russia barging in and having its way. If it worked like that then all a government has to do is ship lots of its nationals to a neighoring country, force any kind of discontent to occur and then march in with an annexation. Europe could become an Arab emirate. West USA could become Mexican. 'We have lots of our nationals there!'

Likewise, historical sovereignty over a piece of land does not mean it is perpetually yours. That is why Gibraltar remains British to this day, rather than simply reverting to Spanish control because 'it's close to us and used to be ours'.

[Juan_Bottom]

I think that if any of you remember your history, you'll know that Hitler used the same reason for his invasion of Poland.
Nazi radio said that Poland would try to take Danzig away, and that Poland would persecute the Germans living in territory Poland acquired from Germany after WWII. Hitler then tried to goad the Poles into attacking Germans on the border, but they wouldn't. So he simply fabricated an attack on Germany, then invaded Poland with the excuse of protecting the Germans living there.

I'm not saying Putin is Hitler here, I'm just saying that there is a ridiculously obvious pattern to European warfare. Russia is claiming that the Ukraine must be broken apart to protect the Russians living there. Otherwise, they might have to attack the Ukraine. Those Vice dispatches also told told the story of how Russians were trying to get the Ukrainian military to fire at them. It's an obvious pattern.

[GoranZ]

I think that if any of you remember your history, you'll know that Hitler used the same reason for his invasion of Poland.
Nazi radio said that Poland would try to take Danzig away, and that Poland would persecute the Germans living in territory Poland acquired from Germany after WWII. Hitler then tried to goad the Poles into attacking Germans on the border, but they wouldn't. So he simply fabricated an attack on Germany, then invaded Poland with the excuse of protecting the Germans living there.

I'm not saying Putin is Hitler here, I'm just saying that there is a ridiculously obvious pattern to European warfare. Russia is claiming that the Ukraine must be broken apart to protect the Russians living there. Otherwise, they might have to attack the Ukraine. Those Vice dispatches also told told the story of how Russians were trying to get the Ukrainian military to fire at them. It's an obvious pattern.

You are mistaking a lot, same as other western politicians. Putin said what are his plans 15 years ago on his inauguration for premier of Russia in 1999. He never backed from that promise, seems like he will go fulfill it all eventually. All people need to do is just listen and negotiate, underestimating him wont work, he will just laugh

*Turn off subtitles for English translation

[saxitoxin]

So, to summarize Juan's position:

Hitler Hitler Hitler Hitler Hitler. Hitler? Hitler! Hitler Hitler. Listen, I'm not saying Putin is Hitler, however, Hitler. What if Putin Hitlers Hitler? Then we'll be Hitlered. Hitler. Also, Hitler.

[saxitoxin]

'There are lots of Russians in Crimea/Ukraine' isn't a very convincing reason for supporting Russia barging in and having its way. If it worked like that then all a government has to do is ship lots of its nationals to a neighoring country, force any kind of discontent to occur and then march in with an annexation. Europe could become an Arab emirate. West USA could become Mexican. 'We have lots of our nationals there!'

Likewise, historical sovereignty over a piece of land does not mean it is perpetually yours. That is why Gibraltar remains British to this day, rather than simply reverting to Spanish control because 'it's close to us and used to be ours'.

First, Gibraltar should be returned to Spanish control. And Isles Malvinas to Argentina. World opinion has been consistently in favor of Spain and Argentina on these points. But this has been discussed elsewhere and we don't need to rehash it here.

Second, the argument "the fact that one illegal thing happened doesn't excuse a second illegal thing" is flawed. That is, in fact, exactly how it works. Maybe TGD can correct me if I err, however, IIRC a total breach allows the aggrieved party in a contract to immediately terminate its participation in the contract. (?) The people of Crimea participated in the Ukrainian state bound by the contract of the Ukraine constitution. The usurpation of state authority via overthrow of Yanukovych was a total breach of that contract and freed the people of Crimea from continuing to participate in it.*

The Russian position is one in accordance with the calm, procedural, and logical rule of law. The U.S. position is ruled by passion and crazed shouts of "Hitler!"

* This is one reason the person who has attempted to analogize Crimean secession to Southern secession in the U.S. is wrong. If Breckenridge was elected president in 1860 and the Republicans then violently overthrew him and installed Abraham Lincoln, the South would have been justified in seceding as the U.S. constitution, and its [implied] no exit provisions would be void. But that didn't happen, the Southern secession was illegal, and was justifiably violently suppressed.