What do you think of the greeks?

[Phatscotty]

Phatscotty was right yet again.

About what exactly?

Cuts in government spending is the answer.

Greece should not have taken the bailouts. They should have made cuts, fixed whatever tax problems you had, for whatever reasons. Much in the way some states in America have done and are doing and trying to do the right thing (New Jersey, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Indiana) and in the way the people are rising against Obamacare, just saying IMO Greece has made the wrong choice at every turn, and every event is going to be larger and scarier than the previous panic. These flutters inbetween bailouts are just a slow motion blowing of the roof off the European Union and most if not all of their economies. Economic Cantagion will be a buzzword of the near future, as the crisis races from country to country. I think it's too late for Greece. Quantative Easing is coming on an unimaginable scale. If you recall the last words of Alexandros, I hope people understand what that means, because he was right.



Greeks should have stood up to the bankers and sobered up on their debt and their spending when they had the chance. Now, as some predicted in a thread I made last year that by this time all the Greek gold would be gone and thus all Greek financial sovereignty would be gone as well. I have made the point elsewhere that Iceland is a good example. I understand all the difference you are probably about to point out between the two, but it's the principle that I am talking about.

Debt is fire. Either you control it, or it consumes you. You can't ignore it and expect it not to engulf everything in sight. I have seen the Greeks take the easy way out over and over again. I respect those who have been fighting against the bailouts from the beginning, but all that I know now is they did not get the job done. They failed. I don't know what else to really say about it except that we should learn from what went wrong, because America's debt is over 100% of GDP as well....

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.

[GreecePwns]

Shut up.

[Woodruff]

Is a barter system really starting to be utilized in Greece?

The barter system in South Philadelphia works quite well.

Man #1: Hey youse want to play the golf? I'm the greenskeeper for a nice club.
Man #2: Sure.
Man #1: Okay, let me have free hoagies for a month.
Man #2: Deal.

Happens all the time here in Nebraska, too. I'm not sure why Phatscotty thinks a barter system is a bad thing.

[BigBallinStalin]

Shut up.

Haha, 'nuff said.


inb4 Phatscotty: "but but but pay attention to my trolling/idiocy, guise! [insert rant, possibly plagiarized, plus one picture]"

[Johnny Rockets]

Correct is correct, whether the information comes from Phaty or not. His depiction of the Greece situation is pretty much spot on, as much as I don't see eye to eye on a lot of his politics.

"Shut Up" is not an effective counter argument. Who did you think was going to pay for your excesses???
You were either being delusional, or exceptionally cruel to your children and grand children in the handling of your nations finances. You riot in the streets because your lavish benefits are threatened, but you quietly let your leaders push you into the cattle chute.

Your sovereignty is going to be auctioned to the highest bidder in 20 years or less. I'd brush up on my mandarin and German if I were you.

Jrock

[thegreekdog]

Correct is correct, whether the information comes from Phaty or not. His depiction of the Greece situation is pretty much spot on, as much as I don't see eye to eye on a lot of his politics.

"Shut Up" is not an effective counter argument. Who did you think was going to pay for your excesses???
You were either being delusional, or exceptionally cruel to your children and grand children in the handling of your nations finances. You riot in the streets because your lavish benefits are threatened, but you quietly let your leaders push you into the cattle chute.

Your sovereignty is going to be auctioned to the highest bidder in 20 years or less. I'd brush up on my mandarin and German if I were you.

Jrock

I think you need to read the rest of the thread and the other threads on Greece.

Greecepwns is not only Greek, he has studied the Greek economy, speaks Greek, and gets his information from reputable sources. Phatscotty is not Greek, has not studied the Greek eonomy, does not speak Greek, and gets his information from Fox News and Glenn Beck. I don't know about you, but I'm going ot trust Greecepwns and his sources over Phatscotty and his sources (Megadeth notwithstanding).

You, however, have hit the nail on the head (which actually puts you at odds with Phatscotty): it's not about government spending on pensions and the like.

[GreecePwns]

Johnny Rockets, if you've been paying any attention to the Greek elections you'll see that Greeks will not stand for our sovereignty being sold away to anyone else any longer (in fact it's belonged to NATO for the past 30 years and only recently has the "troika" taken its piece of the pie).

The people of Greece shouldn't pay for the so-called excesses. Our "excesses" (and by this I assume you mean welfare and nationalized companies) are smaller than the EU average. It is the cronyism that has caused our economic problems. There are, according to tax collectors, something like 9 millionaires in Greece. Sounds fishy? Because our tax evasion is around 10% of GDP. As I've always said, without tax evasion we would have had surpluses the last 10 years. So this whole "excess" crap is BS. It's always been BS. And it's exactly what Merkel, Schauble and the troika will want you to believe, so they can have their way.

So who did I think would have to pay for the country's problems? The politicians who guaranteed people jobs-for-life for votes (which they did pay and will pay even more on the election on the 17th). And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers. It's funny that the only party trying to reform the actual problems with any chance of governing is the eco-socialist SYRIZA. And the only one talking about leaving NATO is the KKE. Who on the right talks about these things? Only the nazis.

Those who are liable will pay for the country's problems, not the people as a whole.

[Symmetry]

Johnny Rockets, if you've been paying any attention to the Greek elections you'll see that Greeks will not stand for our sovereignty being sold away to anyone else any longer (in fact it's belonged to NATO for the past 30 years and only recently has the "troika" taken its piece of the pie).

The people of Greece shouldn't pay for the so-called excesses. Our "excesses" (and by this I assume you mean welfare and nationalized companies) are smaller than the EU average. It is the cronyism that has caused our economic problems. There are, according to tax collectors, something like 9 millionaires in Greece. Sounds fishy? Because our tax evasion is around 10% of GDP. As I've always said, without tax evasion we would have had surpluses the last 10 years. So this whole "excess" crap is BS. It's always been BS. And it's exactly what Merkel, Schauble and the troika will want you to believe, so they can have their way.

So who did I think would have to pay for the country's problems? The politicians who guaranteed people jobs-for-life for votes (which they did pay and will pay even more on the election on the 17th). And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers. It's funny that the only party trying to reform the actual problems with any chance of governing is the eco-socialist SYRIZA. And the only one talking about leaving NATO is the KKE. Who on the right talks about these things? Only the nazis.

Those who are liable will pay for the country's problems, not the people as a whole.

Kind of a shame that you advocate an opposite policy with regard to the Falkland Islanders- that they should be collectively punished against their will, and be subject to foreign powers against their democratic rights.

[saxitoxin]

Johnny Rockets, if you've been paying any attention to the Greek elections you'll see that Greeks will not stand for our sovereignty being sold away to anyone else any longer (in fact it's belonged to NATO for the past 30 years and only recently has the "troika" taken its piece of the pie).

The people of Greece shouldn't pay for the so-called excesses. Our "excesses" (and by this I assume you mean welfare and nationalized companies) are smaller than the EU average. It is the cronyism that has caused our economic problems. There are, according to tax collectors, something like 9 millionaires in Greece. Sounds fishy? Because our tax evasion is around 10% of GDP. As I've always said, without tax evasion we would have had surpluses the last 10 years. So this whole "excess" crap is BS. It's always been BS. And it's exactly what Merkel, Schauble and the troika will want you to believe, so they can have their way.

So who did I think would have to pay for the country's problems? The politicians who guaranteed people jobs-for-life for votes (which they did pay and will pay even more on the election on the 17th). And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers. It's funny that the only party trying to reform the actual problems with any chance of governing is the eco-socialist SYRIZA. And the only one talking about leaving NATO is the KKE. Who on the right talks about these things? Only the nazis.

Those who are liable will pay for the country's problems, not the people as a whole.

Kind of a shame that you advocate an opposite policy with regard to the Falkland Islanders- that they should be collectively punished against their will, and be subject to foreign powers against their democratic rights.

no one has an internationally-recognized land claim to Greece

[Symmetry]

Johnny Rockets, if you've been paying any attention to the Greek elections you'll see that Greeks will not stand for our sovereignty being sold away to anyone else any longer (in fact it's belonged to NATO for the past 30 years and only recently has the "troika" taken its piece of the pie).

The people of Greece shouldn't pay for the so-called excesses. Our "excesses" (and by this I assume you mean welfare and nationalized companies) are smaller than the EU average. It is the cronyism that has caused our economic problems. There are, according to tax collectors, something like 9 millionaires in Greece. Sounds fishy? Because our tax evasion is around 10% of GDP. As I've always said, without tax evasion we would have had surpluses the last 10 years. So this whole "excess" crap is BS. It's always been BS. And it's exactly what Merkel, Schauble and the troika will want you to believe, so they can have their way.

So who did I think would have to pay for the country's problems? The politicians who guaranteed people jobs-for-life for votes (which they did pay and will pay even more on the election on the 17th). And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers. It's funny that the only party trying to reform the actual problems with any chance of governing is the eco-socialist SYRIZA. And the only one talking about leaving NATO is the KKE. Who on the right talks about these things? Only the nazis.

Those who are liable will pay for the country's problems, not the people as a whole.

Kind of a shame that you advocate an opposite policy with regard to the Falkland Islanders- that they should be collectively punished against their will, and be subject to foreign powers against their democratic rights.

no one has an internationally-recognized land claim to Greece

GreecePwns and I would disagree with you when it comes to Cyprus and whether or not it's part of Greece.

[saxitoxin]

Johnny Rockets, if you've been paying any attention to the Greek elections you'll see that Greeks will not stand for our sovereignty being sold away to anyone else any longer (in fact it's belonged to NATO for the past 30 years and only recently has the "troika" taken its piece of the pie).

The people of Greece shouldn't pay for the so-called excesses. Our "excesses" (and by this I assume you mean welfare and nationalized companies) are smaller than the EU average. It is the cronyism that has caused our economic problems. There are, according to tax collectors, something like 9 millionaires in Greece. Sounds fishy? Because our tax evasion is around 10% of GDP. As I've always said, without tax evasion we would have had surpluses the last 10 years. So this whole "excess" crap is BS. It's always been BS. And it's exactly what Merkel, Schauble and the troika will want you to believe, so they can have their way.

So who did I think would have to pay for the country's problems? The politicians who guaranteed people jobs-for-life for votes (which they did pay and will pay even more on the election on the 17th). And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers. It's funny that the only party trying to reform the actual problems with any chance of governing is the eco-socialist SYRIZA. And the only one talking about leaving NATO is the KKE. Who on the right talks about these things? Only the nazis.

Those who are liable will pay for the country's problems, not the people as a whole.

Kind of a shame that you advocate an opposite policy with regard to the Falkland Islanders- that they should be collectively punished against their will, and be subject to foreign powers against their democratic rights.

no one has an internationally-recognized land claim to Greece

GreecePwns and I would disagree with you when it comes to Cyprus and whether or not it's part of Greece.

this is a non sequitur

[Symmetry]

this is a non sequitur

I agree.

[Woodruff]

And the people who took these jobs, leading to a school with 6 kids having 21 teachers.

I've always said that teaching would be a great job if we didn't have students.

(For what it's worth, I said the same thing about being a system administrator without users, so...)

[GreecePwns]

Symmetry, I've given you my reason why the Falkland Islands and Cyprus situation are different. The Cypriot people actually voted on their fate, and it was interrupted by an outside country. There was no such thing in the Falklands. Doing so now would be totally irrelevant; the massive majority of Falklanders are of British ancestry, whereas back then they were not. Doing so now in Cyprus would not be irrelevant; 99% of Cypriots are still either Greek Cypriots or Turkish Cypriots like it was when the referendum was taken and continuously since.

It is a very consistent stance to take. Let the people (the actual people, not the imported people) decide. The actual Cypriots voted for union, the imported Cypriots are against. The imported people of the Falklanders want union with Britain, the actual Falklanders, while not alive today can be represented by the ancestors of the tribes who lived on the island first, want union with Argentina.

And trying to equate the Falklands issue to Greece's eurozone status is a massive stretch.

[Phatscotty]

I think all hell is about to break loose

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... nts-greece

In an atmosphere that has become increasingly electric before Greece's crucial election, the far-right Golden Dawn has ratcheted up the rhetoric by threatening to remove immigrants and their children from hospitals and kindergartens.

Earning loud applause at an election campaign rally in Athens, Golden Dawn MP Ilias Panagiotaros said: "If Chrysi Avgi [Golden Dawn] gets into parliament [as polls predict], it will carry out raids on hospitals and kindergartens and it will throw immigrants and their children out on the street so that Greeks can take their place."

Medical supplies and beds at some hospitals are running desperately short. The governor of the state-run Nikea hospital, Theodoros Roupas, called on doctors to stop non-essential surgical interventions because of a critical shortage of gloves, syringes and gauze.

[Symmetry]

Symmetry, I've given you my reason why the Falkland Islands and Cyprus situation are different. The Cypriot people actually voted on their fate, and it was interrupted by an outside country. There was no such thing in the Falklands.

Well, indeed, nobody lived there. Now people do, and are voting on their fate. You want them to be interrupted by an outside country.

I'm sorry I can't give you an identical situation to that of Cyprus, but on your own admission this point is the same. I hope you note that I used only your own description of the Cypriot circumstances.

What would you have done with the Falkland Islanders? Would you see them occupied by an outside country? Would you like to see the situation in Cyprus replicated?

Would you accept a vote from Falkland Islanders on the fate of the Falkland Islands?

Or would you dismiss the vote?

[saxitoxin]

Symmetry, I've given you my reason why the Falkland Islands and Cyprus situation are different. The Cypriot people actually voted on their fate, and it was interrupted by an outside country. There was no such thing in the Falklands.

Well, indeed, nobody lived there. Now people do, and are voting on their fate.

If China parachuted 21 people onto one of the uninhabited Outer Hebrides tomorrow, and those 21 people declared they wanted that island to be part of China, what would be the most likely outcome:

(a) the UK would say, "yes, of course!"
(b) the UK would send troops to arrest and eject them all

[Symmetry]

Symmetry, I've given you my reason why the Falkland Islands and Cyprus situation are different. The Cypriot people actually voted on their fate, and it was interrupted by an outside country. There was no such thing in the Falklands.

Well, indeed, nobody lived there. Now people do, and are voting on their fate.

If China parachuted 21 people onto one of the uninhabited Outer Hebrides tomorrow, and those 21 people declared they wanted that island to be part of China, what would be the most likely outcome:

(a) the UK would say, "yes, of course!"
(b) the UK would send troops to arrest and eject them all

c) it would suddenly be found to be legally the headquarters of a number of multinational companies, until the 21 people realised why the island was uninhabited in the first place.

[Symmetry]

It is a very consistent stance to take. Let the people (the actual people, not the imported people) decide. The actual Cypriots voted for union, the imported Cypriots are against. The imported people of the Falklanders want union with Britain, the actual Falklanders, while not alive today can be represented by the ancestors of the tribes who lived on the island first, want union with Argentina.

I kind of ignored the second part of your argument, as the first was so silly, and kind of hypocritical, but what tribes are you talking about? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the Falklands were uninhabited before Europeans set foot there.

This isn't British propaganda, it's the Argentinian side too.

I'm not sure how the dead descendents of tribes that never existed, but you claim as "actual Falklanders" (as opposed to people who have lived on the Islands for generations in non-fiction) have a claim to an island for Argentina that not even Argentina claims to have had tribes living on, let alone staking claim to.

Bizarre.

[Army of GOD]

Unless we're talking about pre-Roman Empire Greece, I have no interest in a conversation about the nation.

[huamulan]

Good input. Where you looking at your henlay when you wrote that?

[Pedronicus]

How did Greece manage to get out of that group? fucking uefa and their silly rules... pfftt!

[Symmetry]

Good input. Where you looking at your henlay when you wrote that?

Huh?

[huamulan]

The correct response is 'what's a henlay?'.

[GreecePwns]

I'm not sure how the dead descendents of tribes that never existed, but you claim as "actual Falklanders" (as opposed to people who have lived on the Islands for generations in non-fiction) have a claim to an island for Argentina that not even Argentina claims to have had tribes living on, let alone staking claim to.

Bizarre.

Tribes, people, same thing (I apologize, I mistranslated a Spanish excerpt in my head). This is the relevant Argentinian claim:

"The principle of self-determination does not apply to the Malvinas Islands Question ... the fact that the United Kingdom occupied the islands by force in 1833, expelled the original population and did not allow its return, thus violating Argentine territorial integrity. Therefore, the possibility of applying the principle of self-determination is ruled out, as its exercise by the inhabitants of the islands would cause the 'disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity' of Argentina."

The principle of territorial integrity gives Argentina a valid claim to the islands. Spain granted Argentina the islands after Argentina gained independence. They established a colony in the 1830s, to which the US and UK responded by unlawful force. Anything after that is invalid and irrelevant. Taking the island by force was illegal, the people imported there are illegally there and their referendum would be useless.

If you're claiming the British got there and found an empty island, you're way off.

UK Gov't: Hey Luis Vernet, you can go to Falkland Islands.
Vernet: Will you protect me until you start your own territory?
UK Gov't: Okay, yeah, whatever. We don't really plan on going there or anything, but we'll do that. Sure. Okay.

United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. I hear you're going to las Malvinas. Wanna go for us?
Vernet: Sure.

---5 years later+, Vernet has settled there and even had a child----

United Provinces Gov't: Hey, Vernet. Wanna be governor of las Malvinas?
Vernet: Sure
UK Gov't: Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. That's our island now.
US Gov't: Yeah, that's our ally's island.
United Provinces Gov't: Nope. We've been here for a while now. It's too late to claim it.
US Gov't: Oh yeah?

---Vernet sinks US ships near las Malvinas, significant damage done to the settlement---

UK Gov't: Oh yeah?

---UK takes the settlement---

Who has the legal claim to the island?