Block the Vote 2012

[Phatscotty]

voter ID 80% support. Oh, the tyranny of common sense!

Phatscotty's version of democracy: Two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner.

I think I'm going to use that one against...people, sometime.

-rd

Don't stub your toe when you try out that anti-Democracy propaganda....

My only version of Democracy is that votes are cast, counted, and the person with the most votes wins. OH THE TYRANNICAL HORROR AND OPPRESSION!!!

Woodruff, Juan Bottom, if you guys have a problem with voting, don't freak out about representative Democracy to me, don't cry and complain and stomp your feet and call the winners of elections tyrants. You guys have to learn that you don't win everything you want every time. And if you truly do want help, my piece of advice to you is to side with common sense, otherwise you are just setting yourselves up for disappointment. Letting Newsroom TV shows rile you up and project hate onto everyone and the world view that you should hate and be mean to and mock everyone who does not agree with you just make you a Fascist.

[Juan_Bottom]

Nonsense. I've demonstrated quite well that Voter ID blocks minorities from being able to vote; it's a fact that you've failed to address through each of your posts. You try to use the argument ad populum to demonstrate what you call "common sense," but it's pretty easily rebuked with a picture of millions of Nazis Seig Heiling. This has been a pretty easy win imho.

What I don't understand is why facts don't sway your opinions at all.

[Woodruff]

voter ID 80% support. Oh, the tyranny of common sense!

Phatscotty's version of democracy: Two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner.

I think I'm going to use that one against...people, sometime.

-rd

Don't stub your toe when you try out that anti-Democracy propaganda....

My only version of Democracy is that votes are cast, counted, and the person with the most votes wins. OH THE TYRANNICAL HORROR AND OPPRESSION!!!

Woodruff, Juan Bottom, if you guys have a problem with voting, don't freak out about representative Democracy to me, don't cry and complain and stomp your feet and call the winners of elections tyrants. You guys have to learn that you don't win everything you want every time. And if you truly do want help, my piece of advice to you is to side with common sense, otherwise you are just setting yourselves up for disappointment. Letting Newsroom TV shows rile you up and project hate onto everyone and the world view that you should hate and be mean to and mock everyone who does not agree with you just make you a Fascist.

You're so unaware of the American political process that you haven't realized that our nation does not impose direct democracy, and that it's intentionally not done? I mean, you talk in your paragraph there about representative Democracy, but you don't seem to actually understand it.

As for your statement regarding "tyrants", I seem to recall you supporting the statement that our democratically elected President is a dictator. How does that juxtapose with your sound and fury here?

Honestly, it seems to me that you should just read your own paragraph a few times, in the hopes that it may actually sink in. You seem to be yelling at yourself, from what I can tell.

[Woodruff]

What I don't understand is why facts don't sway your opinions at all.

Don't you...really? Facts only matter when they're facts that he likes.

[Phatscotty]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

How about we ask some of the people you are trying to exploit instead of letting you exploit the entire race of people (like Hitler) for your own political gain. Plenty of common sense being spoken here, which kind of creates a quandary for you and your racially divisive tactics.



FACTSCOTTY

[Woodruff]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

It may apply equally to all people, but it does not affect all people equally. That is the problem. It is absolutely targeted toward certain groups of people, not coincidentally groups who tend to vote for Democrats. It is one of those things that give the appearance of equality without being equal in actual impact.

How about we ask some of the people you are trying to exploit instead of letting you exploit the entire race of people (like Hitler) for your own political gain. Plenty of common sense being spoken here, which kind of creates a quandary for you and your racially divisive tactics.

Hey, Phatscotty found some black people who happen to agree with him. That means his argument must be sound?

I'm curious how you believe people are being exploited by the argument that voter ID laws are bad ones.

[Symmetry]

How about we ask some of the people you are trying to exploit instead of letting you exploit the entire race of people (like Hitler) for your own political gain.

Wow, just wow. You're hitting a new low with that one Scotty. Hitler? Really?

[Symmetry]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

This is incorrect. The last time I voted I did not have to show ID.

[Night Strike]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

This is incorrect. The last time I voted I did not have to show ID.

Maybe you should stop voting in US election? Or, maybe you should stop projecting UK politics and lack of rights on to the US Constitution and people.

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

It may apply equally to all people, but it does not affect all people equally. That is the problem. It is absolutely targeted toward certain groups of people, not coincidentally groups who tend to vote for Democrats. It is one of those things that give the appearance of equality without being equal in actual impact.

Kind of like how Democrats are disproportionally benefited by illegal voting? Laws like Voter ID tend to disproportionally affect those who are doing more of the activity being outlawed.

[Woodruff]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

This is incorrect. The last time I voted I did not have to show ID.

Maybe you should stop voting in US election? Or, maybe you should stop projecting UK politics and lack of rights on to the US Constitution and people.

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

It may apply equally to all people, but it does not affect all people equally. That is the problem. It is absolutely targeted toward certain groups of people, not coincidentally groups who tend to vote for Democrats. It is one of those things that give the appearance of equality without being equal in actual impact.

Kind of like how Democrats are disproportionally benefited by illegal voting?

The Democrats disproportionally benefited in Florida during Bush's election over Gore? Oh wait, that's different...right? Because instead of being a matter of illegal voting, it was a matter of illegal counting, so that's ok...because you got what you wanted.

So answer these two questions for me, Night Strike:
1. Do you agree with my statement that while it may apply equally to all people, it does not affect all people equally?
2. Are you ok with disenfranching vast numbers of people in order to try to stop very few people?
3. What is actually gained from Voter ID laws that isn't already in place as opposed to what is being lost?

Laws like Voter ID tend to disproportionally affect those who are doing more of the activity being outlawed.

Wow! I honestly cannot believe you just said that! You actually believe that it is the poor people, the people without transportation, the people who have difficulty enough getting to the voting station BUT WHO HAVE LEGALLY REGISTERED TO VOTE...who are voting illegally?

Night Strike...seriously, man...turn off Fox News and try to think for yourself. I know it will be hard. I know...I sympathize. But you can do it, man!

What is the point of requiring voter registration, if voter ID is now required? Are both necessary? If someone can get around the legal registration, then cannot they also get around the voter ID...after all, minors NEVER have access to illegally-made IDs, right? So a minor has more capabilities than voters? I thought we wanted smaller government? Or does that only apply when Fox News tells you it should?

[Phatscotty]

The only people who think you should not have to identify yourself when you vote are the people who want to cheat, and they are hiding behind and promoting bullshit racism and using race (pattern anyone?), which means they are not only cheaters, but also racist.

Anyone who can make it to vote, can make it to register to vote.

[Symmetry]

You have to show ID when you vote. It applies equally to all people

This is incorrect. The last time I voted I did not have to show ID.

Maybe you should stop voting in US election? Or, maybe you should stop projecting UK politics and lack of rights on to the US Constitution and people.

Perhaps you should stop making sweeping generalisations as if they were true. Fox news ain't your friend on this.

To be fair, of course, your argument doesn't even hold water in the US.

State-by-state requirements as of August 2012

The statuses, as of August 2012, of the 50 U.S. states regarding the required or requested showing of ID at the polling place are as follows:[22]

Strict photo ID (voters must show photo ID at polling place or follow-up with election officials soon after the election if they fail to provide a photo ID when voting): Georgia, Indiana, Kansas, Pennsylvania and Tennessee. In addition, Mississippi and South Carolina have strict photo ID laws that must receive, but have not received, approval from the U.S. Justice Department; pending such approval, they all require non-photo ID, except for Mississippi which has no other voter ID law on the books.

Photo ID or alternative (voters at polling place must either show photo ID or meet another state-specific requirements, such as answering personal questions correctly or being vouched for by another voter or poll worker(s) who has a voter ID): Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Michigan and South Dakota. New Hampshire also has one of these laws, but it requires pre-approval from the U.S. Justice Department first.

Non-photo ID (state-specific list of acceptable forms of polling place ID, including a non-photo form): Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Kentucky, Missouri, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington. Arizona, Ohio and Virginia also have strict, after election follow-up rules for voters that fail to provide the required voter ID when voting at a polling place. Alabama has a newer photo ID law that is scheduled to take effect in 2014, if it gets pre-approval from the U.S. Justice Department.

No ID required at polling place: all other states not noted above.

Link

So, hmm, you were wrong. Cut the BS NS, and check your facts.

[Woodruff]

The only people who think you should not have to identify yourself when you vote are the people who want to cheat

That doesn't even make basic sense, Phatscotty. I certainly don't want voting to be a cheat, and I feel safe in speaking for thegreekdog that he does not want voting to be a cheat.

and they are hiding behind and promoting bullshit racism and using race (pattern anyone?), which means they are not only cheaters, but also racist.

You do realize that all claims of racism aren't automatically inaccurate, right? Do you also want to avoid the fact that this isn't necessarily a race issue, but rather an accessibility issue?

Anyone who can make it to vote, can make it to register to vote.

Let me ask YET AGAIN...if the voter registration process (currently used) can be thwarted so that individuals can vote, what is to stop the voter ID process (what you want) from being similarly thwarted? Why is it that you believe the new process will be any more secure than the old process? I've seen nothing that shows me it will be.

[thegreekdog]

Hey, don't bring me back into this. I already made my point by showing how Phatscotty is a hypocrit.

Let me refresh:

(1) Voter identification laws = more government spending; more government employees; more government waste; bigger government.
(2) Voter identification laws don't really do anything since, as was pointed out, there are probably 2 cases a year of voter fraud. As an aside, when 30% of the people in the country vote, voter fraud doesn't really matter.
(3) Phatscotty is for less government spending unless he agrees with whatever big government spending happens to be occurring (hey, just like Paul Ryan and Mittens).

/thread.

[Phatscotty]

Hey, don't bring me back into this. I already made my point by showing how Phatscotty is a hypocrit.

Let me refresh:

(1) Voter identification laws = more government spending; more government employees; more government waste; bigger government.
(2) Voter identification laws don't really do anything since, as was pointed out, there are probably 2 cases a year of voter fraud. As an aside, when 30% of the people in the country vote, voter fraud doesn't really matter.
(3) Phatscotty is for less government spending unless he agrees with whatever big government spending happens to be occurring (hey, just like Paul Ryan and Mittens).

/thread.

you don't sit and point at government spending when it's a legitimate function of government. I mean, that is about a stupid as saying we should not vote, because voting = more government spending, more government employees; more government waste; bigger government. Pretty stupid, huh?

Also, there are 200 cases of voter fraud prosecuted in Minnesota since 2009 alone, more to follow. Why you are telling lies, idk, but if you just want to make me look bad, you should make sure to have a little factual information on what you speak about before you pull out your hypocrite schtick. Pretty stupid, huh?

Phatscotty is for less government, but that does not mean I think we should close all police offices, stop building all roads and bridges, or cease to spend money to hold elections. Pretty stupid, huh?

[Juan_Bottom]

Kind of like how Democrats are disproportionally benefited by illegal voting?

The Democrats disproportionally benefited in Florida during Bush's election over Gore? Oh wait, that's different...right? Because instead of being a matter of illegal voting, it was a matter of illegal counting, so that's ok...because you got what you wanted.

So answer these two questions for me, Night Strike:
1. Do you agree with my statement that while it may apply equally to all people, it does not affect all people equally?
2. Are you ok with disenfranching vast numbers of people in order to try to stop very few people?
3. What is actually gained from Voter ID laws that isn't already in place as opposed to what is being lost?

I want to be clear when I say that both Gore and Kerry lost the popular elections because of who counts the votes. It's not just about blocking the voter, it's also about not counting votes. You remember that judge saying that it wasn't an racial issue that minority votes were tossed out by the millions, it was an economic issue that they couldn't afford modern or close voting methods. As if discriminating against the poor is more reasonable or something.

[Juan_Bottom]

Also, there are 200 cases of voter fraud prosecuted in Minnesota since 2009 alone, more to follow. Why you are telling lies, idk, but if you just want to make me look bad, you should make sure to have a little factual information on what you speak about before you pull out your hypocrite schtick. Pretty stupid, huh?

No there weren't.
There were 200 cases where people were charged, but most were not prosecuted. And the majority of those cases involved felons who registered to vote on election day. A voter ID would not have stopped them from voting. It's Minnesota's problem that they don't do background checks on election day.
& they were all caught.

[Juan_Bottom]

[Phatscotty]

Also, there are 200 cases of voter fraud prosecuted in Minnesota since 2009 alone, more to follow. Why you are telling lies, idk, but if you just want to make me look bad, you should make sure to have a little factual information on what you speak about before you pull out your hypocrite schtick. Pretty stupid, huh?

No there weren't.
There were 200 cases where people were charged, but most were not prosecuted. And the majority of those cases involved felons who registered to vote on election day. A voter ID would not have stopped them from voting. It's Minnesota's problem that they don't do background checks on election day.
& they were all caught.

the background check is voter ID Don't worry, it won't be a problem much longer. We have over 4,000 cases of voter fraud pending in my state. The problem is that voter fraud cannot be investigated or prosecuted until AFTER the illegal votes have been cast and counted. But hey, that is what JB and Greekdog seems to like so much!

But by all means, you and Greekdog, go ahead and keep pretending it's not a big deal. I expect it from you JB, but I don't know what Greekdog is smoking. I thought both of you would understand that every vote counts, and making sure the votes are legal and registered is a direct and legitimate primary function of gov't, IF THERE EVER WAS ONE!

[Phatscotty]

How about we ask some of the people you are trying to exploit instead of letting you exploit the entire race of people (like Hitler) for your own political gain.

Wow, just wow. You're hitting a new low with that one Scotty. Hitler? Really?

wow, just wow. Juan Bottom brought it up, I was responded to JB's Hitler post with a Hitler post. I guess you mean Juan Bottom hit a new low.

Here, these might help you from making such mistakes in the future

[Juan_Bottom]

What you're talking about is that argument ad nazism or whatever it's called, and that's not my argument. I just find that it's easiest to dismiss the argument ad populum by reminding people that almost all the Germans consented to Hitler's takeover of Europe. It's the shortest route to tell people that just because everyone else is doing something doesn't make them right.

I thought I made this clear before but that's ok. It's easy to get the arguments mixed up online and in person.

[Woodruff]

Also, there are 200 cases of voter fraud prosecuted in Minnesota since 2009 alone, more to follow. Why you are telling lies, idk, but if you just want to make me look bad, you should make sure to have a little factual information on what you speak about before you pull out your hypocrite schtick. Pretty stupid, huh?

No there weren't.
There were 200 cases where people were charged, but most were not prosecuted. And the majority of those cases involved felons who registered to vote on election day. A voter ID would not have stopped them from voting. It's Minnesota's problem that they don't do background checks on election day.
& they were all caught.

the background check is voter ID Don't worry, it won't be a problem much longer. We have over 4,000 cases of voter fraud pending in my state. The problem is that voter fraud cannot be investigated or prosecuted until AFTER the illegal votes have been cast and counted. But hey, that is what JB and Greekdog seems to like so much!

But by all means, you and Greekdog, go ahead and keep pretending it's not a big deal. I expect it from you JB, but I don't know what Greekdog is smoking. I thought both of you would understand that every vote counts, and making sure the votes are legal and registered is a direct and legitimate primary function of gov't, IF THERE EVER WAS ONE!

Still hiding from my questions, Phatscotty? Why is that? Is this another example of how you don't hide from anything?

[Phatscotty]

What you're talking about is that argument ad nazism or whatever it's called, and that's not my argument. I just find that it's easiest to dismiss the argument ad populum by reminding people that almost all the Germans consented to Hitler's takeover of Europe. It's the shortest route to tell people that just because everyone else is doing something doesn't make them right.

I thought I made this clear before but that's ok. It's easy to get the arguments mixed up online and in person.

And I would just remind you that you are comparing Hitler taking over Europe with showing your ID when you vote. It's completely dishonest, but that seems to be your thing lately. Not like any of the big dicks around here will give you any shit for it.....

Let me ask you honestly though...

1a) Do you think that people should need to register to vote? b) Is requiring people to register to vote also racist?
2a) Do you think that voters should have to tell the election judge their name and confirm the address so the judge can find their name and address in the voter rolls? 2b) Is the election judge asking for your name and verifying that you are a registered voter racist?
3) Are these people in the video racist? If no, why not?

[Juan_Bottom]

WE'VE ALREADY GONE OVER THAT

And I would just remind you that you are comparing Hitler taking over Europe with showing your ID when you vote.

& THIS NEVER HAPPENED

Over the past year Voter Fraud has become an important issue in Florida. Governor Rick Scott has spearheaded the issue by creating new Voter ID laws to curb illegal voting. But the fear remains that it may be too little too late. Florida gun owners are uniting to bring a new law to the table called Protect the Polls. The logic behind Protect the Polls is simple. If you are a legal gun owner in the state of Florida and you suspect someone on Election Day is committing voter fraud you can shoot him or her with your licensed weapon and not be charged with a crime. Precedents have already been set allowing these rights, like the important Stand Your Ground law, and in this case, there is more at stake than just one person’s life; this is for the life of this great country.

http://protectthepolls.com/Home_Page.html

This is not a joke, this is real.

[Juan_Bottom]