The 4th Amendment: Unreasonable Search and Seizure

[Woodruff]

I've asked this several times now...who are all of these liberals who support this, even with Obama in charge of it? I certainly don't know any.

Well, many in the current administration are defending it

Well of course they are, since they're potentially complicit. I'm speaking of ordinary liberals.

Also, "Miss USA" contestants - at least one of them - support the idea of having her phone tapped to make her feel safe.

Well...I'll just refrain from commenting there. <smile>

[Woodruff]

So? Rand Paul's "outrage" is just a show, as I said. He knew at the very least generally what was going on, or if he didn't know it was because he was essentially trying not to know. And generally knowing what was going on certainly should have been enough for that "outrage" then, when perhaps it wasn't as politically useful for him.

It's not necessarily a show. As far as we know, there are no ways to appeal a FISA court order because it's Top Secret. Once it was leaked, that could essentially break the Top Secret seal allowing orders to be appealed. Remember, Congress doesn't have authority to break classified information outside of closed sessions/briefings even if they think there is wrongdoing.

Even if they don't have the authority, I would suggest that they MIGHT have the responsibility to do so (depending on the nature of the information and such, which I think in this case it would be relevant, particularly considering the "outrage" he's feeling over it and the fact that what he is opposed to doesn't really have a lot to do with fighting terrorism).

[Woodruff]

So? Rand Paul's "outrage" is just a show, as I said. He knew at the very least generally what was going on, or if he didn't know it was because he was essentially trying not to know. And generally knowing what was going on certainly should have been enough for that "outrage" then, when perhaps it wasn't as politically useful for him.

It's not necessarily a show. As far as we know, there are no ways to appeal a FISA court order because it's Top Secret. Once it was leaked, that could essentially break the Top Secret seal allowing orders to be appealed. Remember, Congress doesn't have authority to break classified information outside of closed sessions/briefings even if they think there is wrongdoing.

I guess Rand Paul really isn't very interested in answers after all...he probably didn't like that it wouldn't get his name in the headline:

http://www.nationalmemo.com/bipartisan-group-of-senators-wants-answers-on-nsa-surveillance/#.Uc3I6GtBDBU.reddit

[thegreekdog]

So? Rand Paul's "outrage" is just a show, as I said. He knew at the very least generally what was going on, or if he didn't know it was because he was essentially trying not to know. And generally knowing what was going on certainly should have been enough for that "outrage" then, when perhaps it wasn't as politically useful for him.

It's not necessarily a show. As far as we know, there are no ways to appeal a FISA court order because it's Top Secret. Once it was leaked, that could essentially break the Top Secret seal allowing orders to be appealed. Remember, Congress doesn't have authority to break classified information outside of closed sessions/briefings even if they think there is wrongdoing.

I guess Rand Paul really isn't very interested in answers after all...he probably didn't like that it wouldn't get his name in the headline:

http://www.nationalmemo.com/bipartisan-group-of-senators-wants-answers-on-nsa-surveillance/#.Uc3I6GtBDBU.reddit

Inflammatory much? Jeez dude.

[AndyDufresne]

TGD, where are you. I just heard a story about Iowa State Patrol officers using a nifty gps tracking device that aims to cut down on police chases and general disorder on the road caused by chasing. I only caught a bit of the story on the news, but there were some discussions about 4th amendment.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/11/21/ ... ps-cannons

That’s why the Iowa State Patrol is now experimenting with the latest gadget aimed at reducing the number of pursuits. It’s a mini air cannon that mounts on the patrol car’s push bar. It fires a GPS device that’s designed to stick to the back of the fleeing vehicle. The officer can then lay back at a safe speed and distance and track the suspect by satellite.

Iowa troopers have shot twice so far and are 2 for 2 with a couple arrests. The system and the company that makes it are called StarChase.

“It allows the officer to really use different tactics on what would be a traditional pursuit,” says StarChase President Trevor Fischbach, “but just run it differently, lower the adrenaline, lower the risk, and it allows everybody to make better decisions, even the criminal.”

...

Price could be a big drawback. The system is not cheap. Each cannon runs $5,000 and every GPS round costs $250.

The price seems like an obvious limitation, but then I wonder how much it costs to fix police cars if they get dented and bumped using their PIT maneuvers, etc.

Anyways, TGD, your expertise is needed. Anyone else claiming to have expertise can also weigh in. I claim to have no expertise, except in Animated Star Trek Gifing.


--Andy

[BigBallinStalin]

TGD, where are you. I just heard a story about Iowa State Patrol officers using a nifty gps tracking device that aims to cut down on police chases and general disorder on the road caused by chasing. I only caught a bit of the story on the news, but there were some discussions about 4th amendment.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/11/21/ ... ps-cannons

That’s why the Iowa State Patrol is now experimenting with the latest gadget aimed at reducing the number of pursuits. It’s a mini air cannon that mounts on the patrol car’s push bar. It fires a GPS device that’s designed to stick to the back of the fleeing vehicle. The officer can then lay back at a safe speed and distance and track the suspect by satellite.

Iowa troopers have shot twice so far and are 2 for 2 with a couple arrests. The system and the company that makes it are called StarChase.

“It allows the officer to really use different tactics on what would be a traditional pursuit,” says StarChase President Trevor Fischbach, “but just run it differently, lower the adrenaline, lower the risk, and it allows everybody to make better decisions, even the criminal.”

...

Price could be a big drawback. The system is not cheap. Each cannon runs $5,000 and every GPS round costs $250.

The price seems like an obvious limitation, but then I wonder how much it costs to fix police cars if they get dented and bumped using their PIT maneuvers, etc.

Anyways, TGD, your expertise is needed. Anyone else claiming to have expertise can also weigh in. I claim to have no expertise, except in Animated Star Trek Gifing.


--Andy

I wonder what the average cost is per car chase. Based on my very scientific observations from the very scientific TV Show, Cops, it appears that the StarChase system would be worth it.

[thegreekdog]

TGD, where are you. I just heard a story about Iowa State Patrol officers using a nifty gps tracking device that aims to cut down on police chases and general disorder on the road caused by chasing. I only caught a bit of the story on the news, but there were some discussions about 4th amendment.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/11/21/ ... ps-cannons

That’s why the Iowa State Patrol is now experimenting with the latest gadget aimed at reducing the number of pursuits. It’s a mini air cannon that mounts on the patrol car’s push bar. It fires a GPS device that’s designed to stick to the back of the fleeing vehicle. The officer can then lay back at a safe speed and distance and track the suspect by satellite.

Iowa troopers have shot twice so far and are 2 for 2 with a couple arrests. The system and the company that makes it are called StarChase.

“It allows the officer to really use different tactics on what would be a traditional pursuit,” says StarChase President Trevor Fischbach, “but just run it differently, lower the adrenaline, lower the risk, and it allows everybody to make better decisions, even the criminal.”

...

Price could be a big drawback. The system is not cheap. Each cannon runs $5,000 and every GPS round costs $250.

The price seems like an obvious limitation, but then I wonder how much it costs to fix police cars if they get dented and bumped using their PIT maneuvers, etc.

Anyways, TGD, your expertise is needed. Anyone else claiming to have expertise can also weigh in. I claim to have no expertise, except in Animated Star Trek Gifing.


--Andy

If I remember correctly, there is an exception to search and seizure parameters when there is a chase. The question here is whether those parameters are excepted when there is not a chase but a tracking. I don't know.