President Proposes to Lower Taxes

[PLAYER57832]

Besides, then Night Strike and his ilk can't look down their noses at them for being poor.

Considering we live in a 1 bedroom apartment and are living frugally.....and would be poor if we had a kid (living comfortably at the moment).....no, I have absolutely no reason to look down on anybody, especially if they're poor. We've both worked for what we currently have and are working to move up in our professions. It's OUR responsibility to take those steps, not somebody else's job.

OH BULL.. you have not "worked" solely for "what you have". You have what you have because of the fights and work of MANY who came before you and who continue to contribute to your well-being.


Take, for example, this very internet. I am sure you can tout how it all came from private enterprise in Silicone valley... and you would be only superficially correct. In fact, Silicone Valley is where it is largely because of Stanford and other area colleges and their embracing of government contracts, government funded technology. It was Stanford professors encouraging their students to take that government funded technology and to go out and use it for business enterprise that was a major factor, sme would argue THE factor in the tech boom.

OR, how about the fact that even though you live in a, by your statement, cheap one bedroom apartment, you still live in an apartment that meets fire codes, various other safety codes.. that came about because others before you died or were injured, thus forcing an outcry. Their sacrifice led to your currently enjoyed safety.

OR, whatever job you have, you can thank unions for your wages and most of the conditions and benefits you now enjoy.

You benefit now from the taxes and labor of others in the transportation, inspection services industries, and multiple lines of research far too many to name here.

Claiming you are the product of your own work is just garbage... but go on believing you live in an island. If your political wishes come true, you will find out just how wrong you were. Sadly, it won't be just you experiencing the pain, though.

[PLAYER57832]

PS, I can basically guarantee I live a lot more frugally than you.. AND contribute more to society more, in addition to raising 2 kids who will be supporting you in your old age through their taxes and other payments.

Yet, because I don't claim all that to be of my own, independent measure.. you seem to think that gives you the right to label me things like "welfare mom" and to make other idiotic claims.

[Woodruff]

Besides, then Night Strike and his ilk can't look down their noses at them for being poor.

Considering we live in a 1 bedroom apartment and are living frugally.....and would be poor if we had a kid (living comfortably at the moment).....no, I have absolutely no reason to look down on anybody, especially if they're poor.

Not that that seems to stop you, of course.

[Woodruff]

PS, I can basically guarantee I live a lot more frugally than you.. AND contribute more to society more

Wow. Speaking as a pretty arrogant individual myself, this is the height of arrongance. How can you possibly know any such thing?

[Night Strike]

Besides, then Night Strike and his ilk can't look down their noses at them for being poor.

Considering we live in a 1 bedroom apartment and are living frugally.....and would be poor if we had a kid (living comfortably at the moment).....no, I have absolutely no reason to look down on anybody, especially if they're poor. We've both worked for what we currently have and are working to move up in our professions. It's OUR responsibility to take those steps, not somebody else's job.

OH BULL.. you have not "worked" solely for "what you have". You have what you have because of the fights and work of MANY who came before you and who continue to contribute to your well-being.


Take, for example, this very internet. I am sure you can tout how it all came from private enterprise in Silicone valley... and you would be only superficially correct. In fact, Silicone Valley is where it is largely because of Stanford and other area colleges and their embracing of government contracts, government funded technology. It was Stanford professors encouraging their students to take that government funded technology and to go out and use it for business enterprise that was a major factor, sme would argue THE factor in the tech boom.

OR, how about the fact that even though you live in a, by your statement, cheap one bedroom apartment, you still live in an apartment that meets fire codes, various other safety codes.. that came about because others before you died or were injured, thus forcing an outcry. Their sacrifice led to your currently enjoyed safety.

OR, whatever job you have, you can thank unions for your wages and most of the conditions and benefits you now enjoy.

You benefit now from the taxes and labor of others in the transportation, inspection services industries, and multiple lines of research far too many to name here.

Claiming you are the product of your own work is just garbage... but go on believing you live in an island. If your political wishes come true, you will find out just how wrong you were. Sadly, it won't be just you experiencing the pain, though.

Your point? Yes, all people help create a society, but that doesn't mean it's the society's role to fund every person in that society. It's up to each person to work to provide for themselves, not to live off the hard work of others. And your list is completely irrelevant: I now pay my share to fund those tasks myself. I don't get paid by the government to do nothing.

In Capitalist Society it is Government's job to make sure there is a staircase to step-up.

No it's not. The free market system will provide a staircase because it will naturally promote those who are the best. The government is there to punish abuses, breaches of contract, etc.

Besides, then Night Strike and his ilk can't look down their noses at them for being poor.

Considering we live in a 1 bedroom apartment and are living frugally.....and would be poor if we had a kid (living comfortably at the moment).....no, I have absolutely no reason to look down on anybody, especially if they're poor.

Not that that seems to stop you, of course.

Right........

[Teflon Kris]

No it's not. The free market system will provide a staircase because it will naturally promote those who are the best. The government is there to punish abuses, breaches of contract, etc.

'The Best'



'Punish abuses'

[Woodruff]

No it's not. The free market system will provide a staircase because it will naturally promote those who are the best. The government is there to punish abuses, breaches of contract, etc.

'The Best'

'Punish abuses'

In theory, what he says is true. Unfortunately, the government only punishes those abuses that it chooses to, and just as unfortunately, the free market system promotes those who are the most cut-throat or perhaps those who have the most resources available, not necessarily those who are the best (though many times, it does promote those who are the best, as well).

For instance, Wal-Mart in it's inception could absolutely be touted as "the best" and it didn't really have any resources or advantages and wasn't what one would necessarily call cut-throat (though it was highly-aggressive). As opposed to these days when Wal-Mart IS very cut-throat and has many more resources available to others and so, even in situations where Wal-Mart is NOT the best, they are able to keep "the best" competitors at bay fairly easily because of those two things, and the free market system supports that ability to do so.

[tzor]

We already have free education....it's called high school. If a person wants to better themselves beyond that, then it's THEIR responsibility to take those steps. It's not every one else's job.

While I agree that a plethora of useless bachelor degrees does no one any good, I would like to point out that technical skill learning (in various trades) which was common at the high school level until the progressives took over, is no longer done. Very few schools have "shop" as a course, or train students in the operation of complex machinery. The ability to get a good education in a focused trade school might be highly effective. We still need people to repair transportation devices (cars, trains, boats and planes) and to repair and maintain environmental controls (air conditioning) and yes even people who can maintain the septic systems of major metropolitan areas. All of these areas have been dropped from the high school studies as they don't fit well "to the test" designed to churn out all those useless bachelor degrees.

[Teflon Kris]

'The Best' - take George Bush as an example. Really thick rich kid - he should be at the bottom of the ladder.

'Punish abuses' - in reality Government has 5 more typical responses - 'Reward abuses', 'Encourage Abuses', 'Be complicit in abuses', 'Ignore abuses' and 'Create abuses'.

From thousands of miles away I can list plenty of examples of all 5 types committed by US Government over recent years.

Naturally, I can list hundreds by the 51st state Government.

Those at the top of the ladder are part of the club.

The staircase is designed and adjusted to ensure only a few token examples of talented individuals are promoted - there have to be a few to maintain the illusion that the staircase is 'natural'. The more right-wing and conservative the government, the fewer promotions they allow however.

Part of their maintenance is tinkering with the lower levels, enabling the masses to again minor promotions at a rate suitable to them, ensuring the masses and the media are focused on the lower levels whilst they keep tight hold on how few lottery-winningly lucky individuals can reach the higher levels.

Thanks to religion and Jean-Paul Sartre they are able to maintain dominance of free-will ideology and the responsibility of the individual to devote their lives to the dream of making minor advances up the ladder - 'you are responsible for the consequences of you own actions' etc. They even manage to make individuals responsible for saving the planet!

[Woodruff]

'The Best' - take George Bush as an example. Really thick rich kid - he should be at the bottom of the ladder.

'Punish abuses' - in reality Government has 5 more typical responses - 'Reward abuses', 'Encourage Abuses', 'Be complicit in abuses', 'Ignore8abuses' and 'Create abuses'.

From thousands of miles away I can list plenty of examples of all 5 types committed by US Government over recent years.

Naturally, I can list hundreds by the 51st state Government.

Those at the top of the ladder are part of the club.

The staircase is designed and adjusted to ensure only a few token examples of talented individuals are promoted - there have to be a few to maintain the illusion that the staircase is 'natural'. The more right-wing and conservative the government, the fewer promotions they allow however.

Part of their maintenance is tinkering with the lower levels, enabling the masses to again minor promotions at a rate suitable to them, ensuring the masses and the media are focused on the lower levels whilst they keep tight hold on how few lottery-winningly lucky individuals can reach the higher levels.

Thanks to religion and Jean-Paul Sartre they are able to maintain dominance of free-will ideology and the responsibility of the individual to devote their lives to the dream of making minor advances up the ladder - 'you are responsible for the consequences of you own actions' etc. They even manage to make individuals responsible for saving the planet!

You say a lot without saying much. I guess you fit your name well.

[Teflon Kris]

You say a lot without saying much. I guess you fit your name well.

I'll take that as agreement of the obvious facts.

[WILLIAMS5232]

i'm sure this is just a publicity stunt.

i don't expect much good out of our current president. especially if he's not concerned about re-election.

[Teflon Kris]

i'm sure this is just a publicity stunt.

You are making steps toward enlightenment comrade.

[Woodruff]

You say a lot without saying much. I guess you fit your name well.

I'll take that as agreement of the obvious facts.

You didn't list many "obvious facts" in that post, frankly.

[Woodruff]

i don't expect much good out of our current president. especially if he's not concerned about re-election.

To be honest, that was my little tiny bit of hope in Obama...that since he didn't need to be concerned about re-election, perhaps he MIGHT do the right thing. Sadly, that does not seem to have been the case.

[thegreekdog]

Please explain how companies move money around and pay tax in one place only, usually not where the money was made. If you can explain that, I would like to offer you a job.

LOL.. nice play on words. Companies do this all the time, as you well know. However, they usually wind up paying some taxes on some of the money wherever they operate. Getting off of ALL the taxes is pretty impossible, though not entirely (as GE demonstrated not that long ago -- though by your measure you have claimed they did actually pay, but just got a lot of legitimate deductions which happened to amount to zero), but getting off of huge swaths is not.

Also, in previous discussions, you made it plain that you fully and completely believe in currently worded tax code definitions for localities and ownership and that the code definitions are accurate reflections of tax responsibility.

Most people don't.. and its because values differ, not because everyone else is ignorant.

Your ignorance is staggering. You are ignorant about tax law. You are ignorant about financial reporting.

The fact that GE may pay tax in one country and not the other does not make that company a tax dodger, despite all the choice media you've imbibed. I would urge you to become more educated about these types of things if you expect to continue to vote and make political choices based upon your faulty data.

[thegreekdog]

thegreekdog:

This is an example of a company doing it, I know they are based in Britain, but still: Formula One

And if you know anything about F1, this kind of stuff is very much commonplace.

I bolded the important part.

[thegreekdog]

'The Best' - take George Bush as an example. Really thick rich kid - he should be at the bottom of the ladder.

I don't know what thick means in the 51st state, but here in the other 50 states, it means stupid. I'm pretty sure President Bush II was a war mongerer, corporate crony, and generally horrible president, but I'm also pretty sure he was not thick.

[PLAYER57832]

The fact that GE may pay tax in one country and not the other does not make that company a tax dodger, despite all the choice media you've imbibed.

Actually, it very much does. The fact that it is fully legal and even a normal practice does not make it OK or morally correct or responsible.
See, I chose GE precisely because it is a very well known example, not some hidden secret situation, some obscure company that you can rightfully claim I don't know about.

I would urge you to become more educated about these types of things if you expect to continue to vote and make political choices based upon your faulty data.

Nope, its not the data upon which I disagree, its the moral significance of it. I don't consider business profit to have moral standing. You do. I put people above any profit. You don't.

AND.. I do know a good deal more about the real world impacts of these worlds, something you have chosen to remain largely ignorant about. The reason GE's moves are a problem is not just that they pay some taxes out of the country, its that they have not fully paid for the damage they cause in the US or repaid the benefits it has received from taxpayers. Anything else is just rhetoric.

[thegreekdog]

The fact that GE may pay tax in one country and not the other does not make that company a tax dodger, despite all the choice media you've imbibed.

Actually, it very much does. The fact that it is fully legal and even a normal practice does not make it OK or morally correct or responsible.
See, I chose GE precisely because it is a very well known example, not some hidden secret situation, some obscure company that you can rightfully claim I don't know about.

I would urge you to become more educated about these types of things if you expect to continue to vote and make political choices based upon your faulty data.

Nope, its not the data upon which I disagree, its the moral significance of it. I don't consider business profit to have moral standing. You do. I put people above any profit. You don't.

AND.. I do know a good deal more about the real world impacts of these worlds, something you have chosen to remain largely ignorant about. The reason GE's moves are a problem is not just that they pay some taxes out of the country, its that they have not fully paid for the damage they cause in the US or repaid the benefits it has received from taxpayers. Anything else is just rhetoric.

Actually, everything you've just typed above is rhetoric. Perhaps you should learn the meaning of the word before you use it in a sentence. You should also look up the words "ad hominem."

But I tell you what Player... even though you don't engage in any profit-making activities in New Jersey, I'm going to write a letter to my state representative and have him subject your income to tax because that's the fair thing to do. That way, 100% of your income can be taxed in Pennsylvania AND 100% of your income can be taxed in New Jersey too! I can see the headline article now:

Woman Doesn't Pay Her Fair Share in Taxes

In financial news, a Pennsylvania resident has reported paying no taxes in New Jersey, despite driving through the state three times this year. New Jersey tax officials are understandably incensed that this woman is taking advantage of an apparent tax loophole. A statement was released by the state's Division of Taxation which read, in part, "Ms. Player earns upwards of $50,000 a year, none of which is subject to tax in our state. This is clearly a violation of liberal rhetoric and we must stop this from happening in the future."

The alleged tax dodger declined comment.

Perhaps you should comment as to why you don't pay taxes in New Jersey Player. Or if you prefer, pick another state you've been to this year.

[Lootifer]

following interesting thread.

also you seem to be asking for it in this thread tgd; considering most people dont understand why we have a graduated tax system in the first place (marginal value of wealth) let alone know what is and is not possible with regards to tax law/creative accounting/whatever-you-would-like-to-call-it, any intelligent discussion is going to be rather rare.

[thegreekdog]

following interesting thread.

also you seem to be asking for it in this thread tgd; considering most people dont understand why we have a graduated tax system in the first place (marginal value of wealth) let alone know what is and is not possible with regards to tax law/creative accounting/whatever-you-would-like-to-call-it, any intelligent discussion is going to be rather rare.

Ultimately I was trying to figure out what the cross-sections thought about the president's plan. Here was my theory:

Republicans (Phatscotty, Night Strike) - Sucks because Obama
Libertarians (me, BBS) - Okay, but corporate cronyism and probably ineffective
Democrats (Player) - Great because Obama
Liberals (Lootifer) - ?

And after I confirmed my theory I was going to ridicule the Republicans and Democrats and try to figure out where you and your ilk would be on this.

I wasn't trying to get into my tenth debate about the headline "BIG COMPANY DOESN'T PAY TAX" by having to explain how that headline is false. I should have known better.

[Night Strike]

Ultimately I was trying to figure out what the cross-sections thought about the president's plan. Here was my theory:

Republicans (Phatscotty, Night Strike) - Sucks because Obama
Libertarians (me, BBS) - Okay, but corporate cronyism and probably ineffective
Democrats (Player) - Great because Obama
Liberals (Lootifer) - ?

And after I confirmed my theory I was going to ridicule the Republicans and Democrats and try to figure out where you and your ilk would be on this.

Hey, I didn't say it sucks because it's Obama. I said it was a step in the right direction, but that it sucks because he wants to use that money to fund more new government spending rather than paying for what we already spend.

[thegreekdog]

Ultimately I was trying to figure out what the cross-sections thought about the president's plan. Here was my theory:

Republicans (Phatscotty, Night Strike) - Sucks because Obama
Libertarians (me, BBS) - Okay, but corporate cronyism and probably ineffective
Democrats (Player) - Great because Obama
Liberals (Lootifer) - ?

And after I confirmed my theory I was going to ridicule the Republicans and Democrats and try to figure out where you and your ilk would be on this.

Hey, I didn't say it sucks because it's Obama. I said it was a step in the right direction, but that it sucks because he wants to use that money to fund more new government spending rather than paying for what we already spend.

You proved my theory wrong. I don't disagree about what the president wants to do with the money, to be fair.

[Woodruff]

The fact that GE may pay tax in one country and not the other does not make that company a tax dodger, despite all the choice media you've imbibed.

Actually, it very much does. The fact that it is fully legal and even a normal practice does not make it OK or morally correct or responsible.

Do you even read the things you write? Tax dodging is illegal activity. What GE and other businesses have done by following the tax code is not illegal activity.

I would urge you to become more educated about these types of things if you expect to continue to vote and make political choices based upon your faulty data.

Nope, its not the data upon which I disagree, its the moral significance of it. I don't consider business profit to have moral standing. You do. I put people above any profit. You don't.

AND.. I do know a good deal more about the real world impacts of these worlds, something you have chosen to remain largely ignorant about. The reason GE's moves are a problem is not just that they pay some taxes out of the country, its that they have not fully paid for the damage they cause in the US or repaid the benefits it has received from taxpayers. Anything else is just rhetoric.

They have OUR PERMISSION NOT TO DO SO. You seem to be too willing to overlook that.