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Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

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Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

 
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:39 pm

patches70 wrote:Wired magazine did an article just the other day explaining why NK most likely wasn't behind the attack. You can find it easily enough if you wished to look. I guess you don't think that there are lots of other possible culprits besides NK? Are you daft?


No, I was referring to the part about how NK isn't near the top of the list. That means you believe that there are many people or groups out there who are interested in hacking Sony, but also that they have a substantially better reason to target Sony in particular than any other major corporation. That is a statement that requires evidence. We have a particular a priori reason to believe that NK has a better motive to attack Sony in particular than random hacktivists have to attack Sony, compared to other large corporations. That doesn't mean NK did it, but it does mean that if you're going to claim that other groups have a stronger motive than NK, you have to back that claim up.

All the articles blaming NK always cite "anonymous sources" where as Wired goes in depth and looks at the actual evidence of the attack to come to their conclusion and explain exactly why they don't think it was NK. The "evidence" that it was NK is so flimsy it's not even funny. But you won't know that unless you go to sources that actually know about this sort of stuff, or you can get your news from the NYT who cite anonymous sources as proof if you like.


Wired didn't do any major digging, they just repeated what the publicly available evidence was (at the time of publication) and simply took the stance that it wasn't enough to blame the North Koreans.

There were two particular lines in the malicious code of the hack that the US government would say "this proves it's NK", except Wired explains how that's bullshit because apparently hackers like to throw in false information. Granted, I don't know much about hacking, but I would imagine Wired knows a bit more about the subject than Mets, or the NYT.


That is precisely why you should be taking the government's claim seriously. Anyone who is familiar with very basic details of programming knows that the evidence published the government (on its face) is not enough to target any one group in particular. If the FBI has published what they said and still been able to conclusively link the attack to NK, that means they must have confidential information that they can't release, which proves it. It is the very weakness of the public claim that means you can't just discard the possibility. Of course, they could be lying, but if you claim that because the publicly released evidence doesn't add up, and therefore that the FBI is lying about it or being tricked, I think you're discarding a very real possibility that they know something we don't.

For my part, I have to take into consideration that the US government lies, and as far as I know Wired has never lied to me. I can't say the same about the USG or the NYT.


You wouldn't know if Wired ever lied to you, because by your own admission you don't know anything about the subject. You are saying that the NY Times is considered by you to be suspect, while simultaneously you don't think that Wired could have its own motive here. The problem is that the pendulum is swinging too far the other way. Your default stance is that the USG is probably being untruthful, which means that you psychologically give too much credit to those who take a stance that opposes what the USG says. Maybe this will often be the right decision, but you have to be aware of it.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby nietzsche on Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:49 pm

But the truth is there's no way to know where the hacking came from. These guys hide their steps very well.

If they hid their steps (which is very easy to do, specially for someone that knows) they're really no way of knowing.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby nietzsche on Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:51 pm

Moreover, are we really giving the benefit of the doubt in this matter to the US government?

Are you serious?


How many years have passed since W.Bush/Irak/WMD? Cut the crap and be fucking honest to yourself for once. If you don't want to do something about it and want to keep living your comfortable life that's fine with me, I'd do the same. But be honest with yourselves.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby patches70 on Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:15 pm

Mets wrote:We have a particular a priori reason to believe that NK has a better motive to attack Sony in particular than random hacktivists have to attack Sony, compared to other large corporations. That doesn't mean NK did it, but it does mean that if you're going to claim that other groups have a stronger motive than NK, you have to back that claim up.



Ok.

Sony was extorted. The hackers sent Sony a message that unless they paid up the hackers would release what info they stole. This points to motive as financial gain. Given NK's recent spat with Sony that makes Sony a nice target to try for because the blame would naturally fall on NK.

Your priori motive ignores the extortion attempt made by the hackers. That extortion attempt puts a lot of other groups above NK as to where suspicion should would fall. Like organized crime, Russian, Chinese or just plain old mob hackers and all the way to 4chan for Christ's sake.



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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:25 pm

nietzsche wrote:But the truth is there's no way to know where the hacking came from. These guys hide their steps very well.

If they hid their steps (which is very easy to do, specially for someone that knows) they're really no way of knowing.


That is simply incorrect. It is true that in terms of just the hack itself, yes it can be very very difficult to track the hackers down if they are good.

But, there could be independent corroborating evidence. For examples, e-mails or phone calls between members of Guardians of Peace and the North Korea government, or something along those lines. The reason I take this seriously is that if the FBI was lying, it would have made sense for them to claim that they had some sort of sigint directly linking the attack to North Korea. If they were lying, that wouldn't damage any ongoing investigation, since it would just be made up. If they are telling the truth, then one plausible explanation is that they can't tell us what they know, because to do so would threaten the reliability of whatever method they are using to gather intelligence from NK. It doesn't make sense to me to release only halfway decent evidence if you're going to lie about the causation. At least make up a better story if you're going to make one up.

Sony was extorted. The hackers sent Sony a message that unless they paid up the hackers would release what info they stole. This points to motive as financial gain. Given NK's recent spat with Sony that makes Sony a nice target to try for because the blame would naturally fall on NK.

Your priori motive ignores the extortion attempt made by the hackers. That extortion attempt puts a lot of other groups above NK as to where suspicion should would fall. Like organized crime, Russian, Chinese or just plain old mob hackers and all the way to 4chan for Christ's sake.


This doesn't take us anywhere. If the NK government is any good at what they do, of course they might make up some bullshit like asking for a ransom to make it look like it was just some random hacktivists instead of a directed attack from a foreign government. I mean, blindly believing the USG is one thing, but choosing to believe the motives of whoever did this is quite a lot more absurd.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby patches70 on Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:13 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:
This doesn't take us anywhere. If the NK government is any good at what they do, of course they might make up some bullshit like asking for a ransom to make it look like it was just some random hacktivists instead of a directed attack from a foreign government. I mean, blindly believing the USG is one thing, but choosing to believe the motives of whoever did this is quite a lot more absurd.


I'm not choosing the motives of the hackers. It was an extortion attempt, that is undeniable. That is absolute fact. What is it that you don't understand about that? What is the motivation for extortion? Money!

What's absurd is taking the propaganda and the fearmongering seriously. Your argument is "but they could have thought that they thought that what we were thinking was a double blind" and some bullshit. Any evidence that contradicts the official story that NK did it can be explained away just like you are explaining.

The USG announced that NK did it and at the very moment that the official story came out the FBI was still saying they didn't know who did it. The FBI got their story straight soon after, but it's bullshit. At least without some sort of further evidence.

We do this type of stuff all the time, blame someone for something, don't reveal the evidence because National Security! and then sanction, bomb or otherwise f*ck with whomever it is we want to f*ck with.
I don't know about you but I'm not really about going along with starving people and making the lives of people on the other side of the world and just trust that the USG is right and correct. All manners of injustice and ill advised moves are hidden under the excuse of national security and "we can't tell you the evidence because that would compromise our intell gathering" bullshit. That makes us have to trust the supremely untrustworthy.


Not a good idea. Especially when you add in the future "in the light of the Sony hack we in the USG are enacting <further stringent rules/inaccessibility to the interwebz>" line.

And then there is the very unlikely possibility that Sony is making it all up as the Taiwanese are subtly suggesting. A publicity stunt. I don't buy that line, but if in the future it ever turned out that was the case, it wouldn't surprise me too much. It would be stupid, and criminal especially since said publicity stunt led to sabre rattling and threats and would lead to major blow back to Sony. But stranger things have happened I guess.


What we should be doing is standing back and laughing at Sony. Not "OMG! North Korea's taking over the interwebz!" and otherwise freaking out like little bitches with pitchforks and torches. You know, jokes like-

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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:31 pm

patches70 wrote:I'm not choosing the motives of the hackers. It was an extortion attempt, that is undeniable. That is absolute fact. What is it that you don't understand about that? What is the motivation for extortion? Money!


There are many possible motivations for extortion. Like, hiding other motivations. Seriously, just think about it. If you are North Korea and you are committing a major violation against the security of citizens of another nation, what would you do to help throw people off? (Hint: the correct answer is not "proclaim loudly that we did it.") Your reasoning falls into the classic "wine in front of me" scenario." So does mine. That's why the only really interesting and possibly telling thing here is the way the FBI attempted to explain their conclusion. The problem is that they're playing the game with intentionally weak wine. It is not enough to know either way, but it is why I lean towards this being the truth rather than fiction.

What's absurd is taking the propaganda and the fearmongering seriously.


Well, while on the one hand I don't think the US has much to fear in total from North Korea, I don't think we can just idly sit by and let hackers massively disrupt economic activity, which is what may come if we don't respond seriously to this incident. North Korea or not, there's a lot to fear in the coming decades of this digital age, and it is a bad idea to ignore that.

The USG announced that NK did it and at the very moment that the official story came out the FBI was still saying they didn't know who did it. The FBI got their story straight soon after, but it's bullshit. At least without some sort of further evidence.


Evidently the evidence doesn't matter. If the FBI released pictures of Kim Jong Un at a computer and logged into Sony's network, you'd probably just say "well anyone can use Photoshop."

We do this type of stuff all the time, blame someone for something, don't reveal the evidence because National Security! and then sanction, bomb or otherwise f*ck with whomever it is we want to f*ck with.


I think it is unwise to underestimate the danger that America actually does face in this century. US corporations and government agencies are constantly under cyber assault by individuals from other nations. It is not like this security threat doesn't exist. Perhaps we had some hand in creating it, but what should we do, just back down and let them wreak whatever havoc they want?

I don't know about you but I'm not really about going along with starving people and making the lives of people on the other side of the world and just trust that the USG is right and correct. All manners of injustice and ill advised moves are hidden under the excuse of national security and "we can't tell you the evidence because that would compromise our intell gathering" bullshit. That makes us have to trust the supremely untrustworthy.


Do you trust the government of North Korea more than the government of the USA? Interesting.

What we should be doing is standing back and laughing at Sony.


As Sony has continuously pointed out, they absolutely did not want to pull the movie from theaters, it was the fact that major movie theater distributors said that they weren't going to show it in theaters that ultimately caused them to back out of the intended release.

Or, if you think crime is OK and we should laugh at the victims instead of hunting down the criminals, I guess that's cool too.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:32 pm

bottom line; we are all assuming stuff and we are being manipulated everywhere. It's not even worth trying to investigate a our level cause there is no source we can use as reliable.
Each time something happens with NK, you see how journalists are pretty clueless and just send rumours are there is no local correspondant. So just add something like possible hacker mobs, or that "bureau 121" working for north korea.... whatever.
This is only "maybes" and "what ifs"
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:54 am

The Guardians of Peace have issued a new set of orders for Sony Corp. to obey:

Now we want you to never let the movie be released, distributed or leaked in any form of, for instance, DVD or piracy.

We still have your private and sensitive data and will ensure the security of your data unless you make additional trouble.

And we want everything related to the movie, including its trailers, as well as its full version down from any website hosting them immediately.

http://www.thewrap.com/sony-hackers-iss ... -says-cnn/


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Other movie studios are now learning to behave with good manners so they don't have to be punished for insolence:

New Regency has scrapped another project that was to be set in North Korea. The untitled thriller, set up in October, was being developed by director Gore Verbinski as a star vehicle for Foxcatcher star Steve Carell. The paranoid thriller written by Steve Conrad was going to start production in March. Insiders tell me that under the current circumstances, it just makes no sense to move forward. The location won’t be transplanted. Fox declined to distribute it, per a spokesman.

https://deadline.com/2014/12/north-kore ... 201328532/
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby Army of GOD on Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:18 am

Thanks for the five day old update saxi
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby betiko on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:13 am

are we still allowed to watch old films related to north korea though?
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby _sabotage_ on Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:27 am

Lots of movies flop. James Franco assassinating someone? Sounds like a flop. Was it possible that this shitty sounding movie was as shit as it sounded? The fact that they were willing to pull it and it may never see the light of day says, shitty, over-budget, would have gone to DVD if they bothered raising the budget to finish it. Let me know if it ever is released.

Initial reports suggested it was done with insider info. The USG knew it was being made and Sony did.

I have an Apple TV. Fury was available on it in shitty copy for a few months and a good copy would have been available soon. I haven't watched the other movies released, because they look boring. Will those movies lose profit because they have been released? Probably not.

We certainly seem to be getting hacked a lot. The Filipino kid who wrote the I Love You virus didn't spend long in prison. He was extradited to the US and given a 6 figure salary. We hire the best hackers. Maybe they are just guys hoping to get a US job, or ones that already did.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby owenshooter on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:03 pm

betiko wrote:are we still allowed to watch old films related to north korea though?

nope, a theatre in texas was going to show TEAM AMERICA and have a sing along to the movie, in place of The Interview being cancelled... company refused to send them a print out of fear of the present situation... that is some bullshit...-Jésus noir
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby DoomYoshi on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:16 pm

owenshooter wrote:
betiko wrote:are we still allowed to watch old films related to north korea though?

nope, a theatre in texas was going to show TEAM AMERICA and have a sing along to the movie, in place of The Interview being cancelled... company refused to send them a print out of fear of the present situation... that is some bullshit...-Jésus noir


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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby betiko on Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:47 pm

DoomYoshi wrote:
owenshooter wrote:
betiko wrote:are we still allowed to watch old films related to north korea though?

nope, a theatre in texas was going to show TEAM AMERICA and have a sing along to the movie, in place of The Interview being cancelled... company refused to send them a print out of fear of the present situation... that is some bullshit...-Jésus noir


America! f*ck YEA!

We did that song at this one multi-movie sing-a-long in the art fag theatre in Toronto.


i was kind of thinking of that movie. Ok, I will erase it from my memory, it never happened.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:13 am

Kind of feeling a lot like:

Syria Chemical Attack

Obama: Assad!
Assad: Let's investigate.
Obama: Assad!
People: ?
Investigation buried.

Ukraine plane:
Obama: Putin!
Putin: Let's investigate.
Obama: Putin!
Investigation buried.

WMDs:
Bush: Saddam!
Saddam: let's investigate.
Bush: Saddam!
Investigation buried.

Sony Hack:
Obama: Kim!
Kim: Let's investigate.
Obama: Kim!
What's going to happen next?
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby mrswdk on Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:55 am

Oh, don't be so cynical. Maybe they'll have one of those state security reviews where someone gets blackballed for reasons that are confidential.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby _sabotage_ on Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:13 pm

What's going to happen is:

Whatever bureau will be considered underfunded and underpowered. They' ll be given money and authority. They will hire Darren Wilson and his kind and equip them tip to toe. When AOG takes a dick pic and an underage hacker accesses it, he'll be hauled off to jail in under 10 minutes.

Sony will be under state protection while all of our acts will be judged at the whim of AOG after he is released and joins the bureau.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby _sabotage_ on Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:58 pm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-intervi ... 82?tesla=y

In the real world, a debate has been raging over what does and doesn’t constitute torture. In the movie world, there’s no debate; watching “The Interview” is torture from almost start to finish.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:38 pm

sabotage wrote:When AOG takes a dick pic and an underage hacker accesses it, he'll be hauled off to jail in under 10 minutes.


I heard the reason AOG can never make it past the second date is because girls are afraid they'll get busted for child molestation after seeing his dick pic.

Tucked between bitchy emails about Angelina Jolie and snarky comments on Will Smith’s family are details of a chummy relationship between Sony executives and the CIA ...

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014 ... rown-away/
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby rishaed on Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:17 am

They done posted it on Youtube... Ain't nobody gonna be able to remove it now.....
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:00 am

LOL Playstation Network down all day from a DOS attack. Merry Xmas ... payback's a bitch!
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby betiko on Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:54 am

saxitoxin wrote:LOL Playstation Network down all day from a DOS attack. Merry Xmas ... payback's a bitch!


I m happy i have a merican console and not empire of the rising sun shit. Could they erase all game progress from kids all around the world? That s like a not cool christmas present kim. Freakin grintch.
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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:47 am

saxitoxin wrote:
sabotage wrote:When AOG takes a dick pic and an underage hacker accesses it, he'll be hauled off to jail in under 10 minutes.


I heard the reason AOG can never make it past the second date is because girls are afraid they'll get busted for child molestation after seeing his dick pic.

Tucked between bitchy emails about Angelina Jolie and snarky comments on Will Smith’s family are details of a chummy relationship between Sony executives and the CIA ...

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014 ... rown-away/


From the original article:
It did confirm the CIA official sat with Sony Senior Vice President for Corporate Security Stevan Bernard in the company’s floor-side seats in the Staples Center to watch the Lakers and Clippers play on October 31, 2014 — less than one month before the major security breach.


One Sony executive once sat down with a CIA agent to talk about [unknown] stuff.

Therefore, "This is just one indication of a close relationship between Sony execs and the U.S. government"? There is a "chummy relationship between Sony executives and the CIA"?


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Re: Is hacking the Sony Corporation the equivalent of 9/11?

Postby tzor on Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:12 pm

North Korea was NOT behind the Sony hack according to multiple security experts who discredit FBI findings and reveal that a studio insider named 'Lena' may be responsible (Daily Mail)
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