Conquer Club

You're all fascists

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:45 pm

warmonger1981 wrote:1,000 years is an extremely short period of time. That doesn't say much compared to the earth's age.


Same data, over a longer timescale, with temperature at the same times (CO2 reconstructions come from ice core data):

Image

I heard carbon dioxide was the key factor to global warming. I've also heard carbon dioxide has never risen before temperatures. Can you please weigh in on this conundrum?


The key, as usual in science, to unravelling this is to understand things quantitatively, not just qualitatively. Before humans came around, there needed to be another trigger for global warming events (of the kind that ended ice ages). The thinking is that whatever this trigger was, it warmed up the planet a little bit, releasing some carbon dioxide, and that carbon dioxide produced the bulk of the warming observed through a feedback cycle where it kept getting warmer and therefore kept releasing more CO2. If the CO2 hadn't been released, the warming would not nearly have been so large as it was, and we might not have left the ice ages.

There is quite a bit of debate about how this works, in detail, and what the trigger mechanism actually is. Climate science still has plenty left to discover :-)
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:48 pm

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:
Tzor wrote:In the mean time, we need to continue to look at the ways man is destroying the ability of the earth to absorb CO2 in the first place; the destruction of rainforests, urban sprawl, and so forth, and work at improving ways to convert CO2 into things we need everyday.


Why in the mean time? Why can't we simultaneously focus on this? Why can't a carbon tax provide an incentive to do those things?


Please dont argue that carbon offsetting should be a loophole in the tax, loopholes are the start of the tax failing to be effective.


I meant an indirect economic incentive, mainly. However, I wouldn't consider carbon offsetting a loophole as long as the offset really was tied to a specific reduction in CO2 from some sequestration mechanism. The whole point of the tax is to lower the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, so that would be consistent with its ideas. The 'failure to be effective' comes in when either the offset is not tied to an actual reduction in CO2 or when the amount of CO2 reduced is not as large as the amount of CO2 that would have been admitted.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby mrswdk on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:20 pm

No one cares what happens to the world in 100 years, soz.
Lieutenant mrswdk
 
Posts: 14898
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:37 am
Location: Red Swastika School

Re: You're all fascists

Postby WingCmdr Ginkapo on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:23 pm

mrswdk wrote:Didn't you guys already have this argument about 3000x before?

notyou2 wrote:Some people don't know when they lost.
User avatar
Major WingCmdr Ginkapo
 
Posts: 1225
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:35 pm

mrswdk wrote:No one cares what happens to the world in 100 years, soz.


I do. Therefore you are wrong.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby / on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:49 am

Thread about angrily accusing everyone of being fascists is derailed into a science debate.
The f*ck kind of opposite day sorcery is this?
Sergeant 1st Class /
 
Posts: 484
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:41 am

Re: You're all fascists

Postby tzor on Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:07 am

Metsfanmax wrote:Well, shit. tzor has said so, therefore it must be. I give up, folks.


Well I could spend eight hours each post going back and referencing all the links, but I don't have the time. If you would like to pay me ... I don't know ... how does $99 an hour sound ... I would be more than happy to put every statement with a plethora of links. Since this is ConquerClub and not Wikipedia, I'm not going to do that.

But I'll do a quick google just to make you happy ... Impacts of Carbon Taxes on the US Economy

The AEO2014 side case for the $25 per ton carbon tax would cut energy-related CO2 emissions by about 50 percent by 2050 (overall emissions would probably drop by a slightly smaller percentage). These cuts translate to a temperature moderation of about 0.05 degrees centigrade (about 0.09 degrees Fahrenheit) by the end of this century. Few would argue that this virtually unmeasurable impact is worth the million lost jobs and trillions of dollars of lost income.


In early 2013, a Heritage paper looked at the economic impacts of a carbon tax that was included as a side case in the EIA’s Annual Energy Outlook 2012.[3] That analysis noted the following impacts of a $25 per ton tax on carbon dioxide:
  • Cut the income of a family of four by $1,900 per year in 2016 and lead to average losses of $1,400 per year through 2035;
  • Raise the family-of-four energy bill by more than $500 per year (not counting the cost of gasoline);
  • Cause gasoline prices to increase by up to $0.50 gallon, or by 10 percent on an average gallon price; and
  • Lead to an aggregate loss of more than 1 million jobs by 2016 alone.


Summary
  • Carbon taxes are bad for the economy as economic analysis by both the Heritage Foundation and the U.S. Energy Information Administration have projected.
  • Reducing CO2 with a carbon tax will have at most tenths of a degree moderation in global warming.
  • Social cost of carbon estimates from the Interagency Working Group’s 2013 technical support document are simply not credible and cannot justify the million lost jobs and trillions of dollars lost income from a carbon tax.
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby tzor on Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:09 am

/ wrote:Thread about angrily accusing everyone of being fascists is derailed into a science debate.


Fascism is all about science. Bad science, but science never the less.
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:28 pm

Your post is about a non-revenue-neutral carbon tax. I don't endorse that. I endorse a carbon tax that returns 100% of revenues directly to Americans, to offset rising costs. That doesn't have the negative economic costs. The link I included in the last post shows an analysis of a carbon tax that does return the revenue, and it finds actually a net-positive impact on the economy.

Also: you endorse a source that says that if we reduce carbon emission by 50% with respect to 2005 levels, that will translate into a fairly small aversion of global temperature rise. Since a 50% cut is fairly massive, and that doesn't seem to do a whole lot to solve the problem, coupled with the fact that we're warmer than the Medieval Warm Period you should really be in panic mode now.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby tzor on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:17 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:Your post is about a non-revenue-neutral carbon tax. I don't endorse that. I endorse a carbon tax that returns 100% of revenues directly to Americans, to offset rising costs. That doesn't have the negative economic costs. The link I included in the last post shows an analysis of a carbon tax that does return the revenue, and it finds actually a net-positive impact on the economy.


OK can you give me a link to the carbon tax that you do endorse? I mean a tax that returns revenues to Americans? Why that's political crazy talk! :twisted:
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby nietzsche on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:28 pm

this carbon tax shit is bullshit.

why dont we make a couple of documentaries, endorsments by kate upton and other hot girls, and we as a society buy the shit that's produced by green companies?

seriously, why give the government yet another hand to squeeze our testicles?

income tax, property tax, sales tax, estate tax, hotel tax, flight tax, booze tax, import tax, cigarrete tax, bank interest tax, etc.


Mets would be a good sex slave. WOuld do anything you told him to do because you're the boss. He'd even ask for a harder whipping.
el cartoncito mas triste del mundo
User avatar
General nietzsche
 
Posts: 4597
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 1:29 am
Location: Fantasy Cooperstown

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:52 pm

tzor wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:Your post is about a non-revenue-neutral carbon tax. I don't endorse that. I endorse a carbon tax that returns 100% of revenues directly to Americans, to offset rising costs. That doesn't have the negative economic costs. The link I included in the last post shows an analysis of a carbon tax that does return the revenue, and it finds actually a net-positive impact on the economy.


OK can you give me a link to the carbon tax that you do endorse? I mean a tax that returns revenues to Americans? Why that's political crazy talk! :twisted:


http://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-cont ... -62141.pdf
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby tzor on Thu Aug 13, 2015 3:18 pm

Metsfanmax wrote:http://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/REMI-carbon-tax-report-62141.pdf


OK I've given it a cursory glance; I will give a more detailed look later. At the moment I'm not terribly opposed. There is a slight element of wealth redistribution, (in as much as rich people tend to use more carbon than poor people) but why shouldn't Al Gore pay through the nose every time he jets from one energy wasting house to the other? :twisted:
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Funkyterrance on Sat Aug 15, 2015 10:14 pm

Oh hell, yeah! This place is absolutely teaming with the stench of veiled fascism. I can't express myself for ten seconds without the proverbial man squashing my ballsack.
Image
User avatar
Colonel Funkyterrance
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:52 pm
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby muy_thaiguy on Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:00 pm

tzor wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:http://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/REMI-carbon-tax-report-62141.pdf


OK I've given it a cursory glance; I will give a more detailed look later. At the moment I'm not terribly opposed. There is a slight element of wealth redistribution, (in as much as rich people tend to use more carbon than poor people) but why shouldn't Al Gore pay through the nose every time he jets from one energy wasting house to the other? :twisted:

Because. Manbearpig. Half man. Half bear. Half pig. Someone must bring this evil thing to justice, and only Al Gore can do that!
"Eh, whatever."
-Anonymous


What, you expected something deep or flashy?
User avatar
Private 1st Class muy_thaiguy
 
Posts: 12746
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 11:20 am
Location: Back in Black

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Metsfanmax on Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:04 pm

muy_thaiguy wrote:
tzor wrote:
Metsfanmax wrote:http://citizensclimatelobby.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/REMI-carbon-tax-report-62141.pdf


OK I've given it a cursory glance; I will give a more detailed look later. At the moment I'm not terribly opposed. There is a slight element of wealth redistribution, (in as much as rich people tend to use more carbon than poor people) but why shouldn't Al Gore pay through the nose every time he jets from one energy wasting house to the other? :twisted:

Because. Manbearpig. Half man. Half bear. Half pig. Someone must bring this evil thing to justice, and only Al Gore can do that!


I do highly respect the views of people who write animated television shows on the issue of climate science.
User avatar
Sergeant 1st Class Metsfanmax
 
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby tzor on Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:15 am

muy_thaiguy wrote:Because. Manbearpig. Half man. Half bear. Half pig. Someone must bring this evil thing to justice, and only Al Gore can do that!


I won't accept a proper solution unless it taxes Al Gore to death. :twisted:
Image
User avatar
Cadet tzor
 
Posts: 4076
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:43 pm
Location: Long Island, NY, USA

Re: You're all fascists

Postby warmonger1981 on Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:46 pm

www.DiscoverTheNetwork.org Date: 8/17/2015 8:45:57 PM

CHICAGO CLIMATE EXCHANGE (CCX)
190 South LaSalle Street - Suite 1100
Chicago, Illinois
60603
Phone :(312) 554-3350
Email :icehelpdesk@theice.com
URL :http://www.chicagoclimatex.com/


Describes itself as "North America's only cap-and-trade system for all six greenhouse gases"
Received startup grants totaling $1.1 million from the Joyce Foundation in 2001-02, when Barack Obama sat on the foundation's board
Closely tied to Al Gore's company, Generation Investment Management
A key Chicago Climate Exchange board member is Maurice Strong, who has a history of insider-trading transgressions.


When it was launched in 2003, the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) became the world's first carbon-emissions trading company, equipped to regulate all transactions made under cap-and-trade energy plans designed to restrict and tax greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions produced by U.S. companies.

The earliest roots of CCX can be traced back to 2000, when Dr. Richard Sandor – an economist, a research professor at the Northwestern University, and the former head of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange – began to study the feasibility of initiating a cap-and-trade system in the United States. At that time, Sandor owned a firm called Environmental Financial Products (EFP). He also knew Illinois state senator Barack Obama, who, in addition to his legislative duties, was a board member of the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation, which had long been a major donor to radical environmental groups and causes. In 2001, Obama helped steer a $347,600 Joyce Foundation grant to Sandor's EFP. The foundation's president, Paula DiPerna, stated that this grant was intended to ā€œsuppor[t] the design of a pilot phase for a carbon dioxide emissions trading market, called the Chicago Climate Exchange.ā€

In August 2001, Carlton Bartels, a partner at Cantor Fitzgerald and the chief executive officer of a company named CO2e.com, filed for a patent on the software technology that would eventually equip CCX to properly monitor the trading of residential carbon credits. But before he could secure the patent, Bartels was killed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center. His widow subsequently located a buyer for the software technology: Franklin Raines, CEO of Fannie Mae, the mortgage-lending giant whose practice of purchasing risky mortgages from banks – and then bundling and selling them to its investors as mortgage-backed securities – would eventually send the U.S. housing market into steep decine. Raines not only oversaw that practice for six years, but he also manipulated profit-and-loss reports so as to enable himself and other Fannie Mae executives to earn gargantuan bonuses – nearly $100 million for Raines alone – even as the mortgage lender was imploding. Raines would eventually serve as the conduit through which Bartels' software would find its way to CCX.

In November 2001, Paula DiPerna stepped down from her post as Joyce Foundation president and joined CCX, where she went on to become executive vice president in charge of corporate recruitment and public policy, as well as president of an affiliated company, CCX International.

In 2002, a second Joyce Foundation grant – for $760,100 – was used to finance the 2003 ā€œlaunchā€ of CCX with its 14 founding members, the most prominent of which were such corporate giants as DuPont, the Ford Motor Company, and Motorola.

In November 2002, Franklin Raines and nine partners collaborated, on behalf of Fannie Mae, to apply for a patent on the software technology they had purchased from Carlton Bartels' widow. One of those partners was former Fannie Mae vice president Scott Lesmes, who was responsible for the aforementioned mortgage-bundling scheme. Another was Robert Sahadi, also a onetime Fannie Mae VP, who now runs GreenSpace Investment Financial Services out of his 5,000-square-foot Maryland home.

The U.S. Patent and Trade office approved the patent on November 7, 2006, the day after the Democrats took control of Congress. The patented technology, which is now utilized by CCX, bundles CO2 and other GHGs in a manner similar to how Fannie Mae bundled toxic mortgages under Raines and Lesmes. The patent summary describes how carbon ā€œand other pollutants yet to be determinedā€ will be ā€œcombined into a single emissions poolā€ and traded.

Today CCX bills itself as ā€œNorth America's only cap and trade system for all six greenhouse gasesā€ – meaning carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulfur hexafluoride, perfluorocarbons, and hydrofluorocarbons. Under a cap-and-trade system, every business is assessed a tax on how much CO2 it produces (i.e., the size of its so-called "carbon footprint," which purportedly contributes to global warming). If a company produces less CO2 than its allotted limit, it earns a Carbon Credit, which then can be traded on the CXX exchange. Meanwhile, if another company exceeds its allotted CO2 limit, it can purchase that Carbon Credit and thereby "offset" its own carbon footprint and reduce its tax liability.

CCX now has roughly 300 multinational members representing a wide array of industries such as automotive, manufacturing, chemicals, electronics, pharmaceuticals, steel, and transportation. Among the more well-known members are Bank of America, Dow Corning, DuPont, Ford Motor Company, Honeywell International, IBM, Intel Corporation, Kodak, Motorola, Safeway, and Sony.

CCX members are defined as entities that produce ā€œdirect GHG emissionsā€ in the course of their normal business activities. These members agree to make a ā€œlegally binding emission reduction commitmentā€ to lower their aggregate emissions by at least 6 percent over a six-year period. CCX says that in return for this, the members will be ā€œinternationally recognized as environmentally progressive leaders in their industries.ā€

Associate members comprise a separate classification of CCX participants; these are ā€œoffice-based businesses or institutionsā€ that ā€œgenerate negligible direct emissions but do generate indirect emissions through electricity use and business travel, among other activities.ā€ As CCX associate members, such companies ā€œmake a legally binding commitment to offset 100% of their annual indirect emissionsā€ over a six-year period. Among CCX's more notable associate members are the Nathan Cummings Foundation, the Rainforest Alliance, and the World Resources Institute.

CCX global affiliates now include the European Climate Exchange, MontrƩal Climate Exchange, and Tianjin Climate Exchange (in China). Moreover, CCX itself has become the subsidiary of a London-based firm, Climate Exchange PLC, which also owns European Climate Exchange and is headed by CCX founder Richard Sandor.

By Sandor's reckoning, cap-and-trade represents a $10 trillion-per-year market. Recognizing the enormous profit potential, Generation Investment Management (GIM) – a carbon-offset company whose chairman and founding partner is Al Gore – purchased a 10 percent stake in CCX and became the company's fifth largest co-owner. In 2006, Goldman Sachs also purchased a 10 percent share of CCX.

CCX grew in its national and international influence. Stuart Eizenstat, former President Bill Clinton’s lead climate-treaty negotiator, became a director. Maurice Strong, the father of international environmentalism at the United Nations, also joined the board, bringing with him a host of top UN officials such as:

Rajenra Pachauri, head of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
Elizabeth Dowdeswell, former head of the UN Environmental Program
Michael Jammit Cutajar, former head of the UN Framework Convention for Climate Change
Thomas Lovejoy, former World Wildlife Fund Executive Vice President and a science adviser to the UN Environmental Program.


Strong had previously served as Secretary General of the 1992 UN Conference on Environment and was a leading architect of the 1997 Kyoto Protocol, an international agreement that set binding GHG-reduction targets for 37 industrialized countries. Strong has a history of insider-trading transgressions.

In 2009 an Atlanta-based group, Intercontinental Exchange (ICE), bought a 4.8 percent stake in CCX. In April 2010, ICE agreed to pay $604 million for Climate Exchange PLC, the London-based operator of CCX and the European Climate Exchange.
User avatar
Captain warmonger1981
 
Posts: 2554
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 pm
Location: ST.PAUL

Re: You're all fascists

Postby rishaed on Tue Aug 18, 2015 2:34 pm

WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:But yes, if we can find someone responsible for wildfires, we will charge them carbon tax on it. Arson isnt worth it.

Click image to enlarge.
image

Found the person responsible Wing. Now go sue them. :lol: :lol:
aage wrote: Maybe you're right, but since we receive no handlebars from the mod I think we should get some ourselves.

Image
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class rishaed
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:54 pm
Location: Somewhere in the Foundry forums looking for whats going on!

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Phatscotty on Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:48 am

What's really happening, and how the conspiracy is making people believe in global warming

User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Re: You're all fascists

Postby ConfederateSS on Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:21 am

Metsfanmax wrote:
I do highly respect the views of people who write animated television shows on the issue of climate science.

-------CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!!!....HE'S OUR HERO...GOING TO BRING POLLUTION DOWN TO ZERO!!
-------That and Americans make up a spit of humans on the planet and use 80% of the planet's resources.... ;) Take CHINA,we want them to stop their activities. But Europe and The Americas alreay went through their Industrial AGE ...Now it's CHINA's turn...HELL let'em do it and be done with it...Everything is made in CHINA anyway... BLAME GLOBAL WARMING ON THE UNIONS...AMERICA... :lol: :lol: :lol: ..ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class ConfederateSS
 
Posts: 3957
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:50 pm
Location: THE CONFEDERATE STATES of AMERICA and THE OLD WEST!
74

Re: You're all fascists

Postby AndyDufresne on Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:48 am

ConfederateSS wrote:. BLAME GLOBAL WARMING ON THE UNIONS...AMERICA... :lol: :lol: :lol: ..ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Image


--Andy
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class AndyDufresne
 
Posts: 24935
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:22 pm
Location: A Banana Palm in Zihuatanejo

Re: You're all fascists

Postby khazalid on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:35 am

did he ever get shot of his porch heater? that's the real question
had i been wise, i would have seen that her simplicity cost her a fortune
Lieutenant khazalid
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:39 am
Location: scotland

Re: You're all fascists

Postby ConfederateSS on Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:39 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
ConfederateSS wrote:. BLAME GLOBAL WARMING ON THE UNIONS...AMERICA... :lol: :lol: :lol: ..ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Image


--Andy

khazalid wrote:did he ever get shot of his porch heater? that's the real question

-----Oh,No...White people dancing...The Horror!!!!!!
-----Kaz, get the joke on global warming now... :lol: ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)
User avatar
Corporal 1st Class ConfederateSS
 
Posts: 3957
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:50 pm
Location: THE CONFEDERATE STATES of AMERICA and THE OLD WEST!
74

Re: You're all fascists

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:31 pm

What about white people dancing?

User avatar
Major Phatscotty
 
Posts: 3714
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users