Why the Constant Conservative Lies?

[Doc_Brown]

I see that all the time. Conservatives can't do math.

The Top 1% pay 40% of Income Taxes collected by the Federal Gov’t.

LOL! And they make what percentage of the total income?

22.2% in 2020. Or, if you want to exclude an average standard deduction of $20,000 for everyone, the top 1% (who paid 42.3% of income taxes) earned 29.3% of taxable income.

[riskllama]

I WOULD LIKE TO RECOMMEND THE MODS INTRODUCE A LARGER FONT SIZE BEYOND OUR NORMAL RANGE OF NORMAL, LARGE, AND HUGE.

PEOPLE ARE MAKING POINTS THAT REQUIRE A FONT SIZE LARGER THAN HUGE TO SUFFICIENTLY EMPHASIZE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION.

saxitoxin wins this thread.

[saxitoxin]

In fairness, Biden may not be a habitual liar, he just may be habitually confused.

The White House is selling ‘Bidenomics.’ Is anyone buying?

Bidenomics, at least in the White House’s definition, is as much identified by what it is not as it is by a particular set of policies or ideas.

Biden himself seemed surprised this month that his surname had achieved “-nomics” status.

“I didn’t realize I had Bidenomics going,” he said during a news conference with his British counterpart on June 8, suggesting he’d learned the term in the pages of the Wall Street Journal.

Ten days later – as the White House put the final touches on the forthcoming ["Bidenomics"] messaging push – he hadn’t seemed to achieve any more clarity on what, exactly, this theory of his was.

“I don’t know what the hell that is."

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/28/politics ... index.html

Classic Biden!

[jimboston]

The USA COULD raise taxes on the $150M earner… but should they? Is that fair or reasonable?

Is it more reasonable than massive cuts in spending? I thought you wanted a balanced budget/surplus... it's only reasonable to cut spending to achieve that goal because it's unreasonable to charge a 150m earner and extra 5% and take him to 30% overall?

I think it’s reasonable to make sure the money is spent efficiently and properly before we ask the tax payers to pay more.

I KNOW through personal experience that there is massive waste in Public Spending. I don’t know there’s massive fraud, there’s probably some… but the waste is tremendous.

The only way to force departments to cut waste is to take away money. Giving more money just increases waste. Every extra dollar at this point just increases the percentage that is lost through waste.

Also why is reducing spending to 2010 levels “massive” cuts? It’s not like I asking for spending to be reduced to 2000 or 1990 levels… just a bit over a decade ago. I could cut my personal budget to my 2010 spending level easily.

[jimboston]

Yeah, Saxi is using those Republican fact-checkers...

Trusted, independent fact-checkers

LOL!

It’s funny how you put forth your stats as FACTS and ignore stats you don’t like and call them lies.

The Truth is that stats can be manipulated and so you have to be clear about exactly what you are talking about.

Democrats calling UNREALIZED capital gains as income is ridiculously disingenuous, AND demonstrates ZERO understanding of how the market works.

It’s one thing to argue that capital gains should be taxed as income… that’s NOT how the tax code works but you can make that argument at least. The statement from Biden is not only confusing and convoluting multiple conversations and factors… it is also presented in a manner to an uninformed public that is INTENDED to misinform them.

Biden is COUNTING on the FACT that his base is uninformed and uneducated.

[jimboston]

Even IF the “rich” paid a lower percentage… which they don’t… they would still being paying a higher total dollar.

We have a graduated income tax… and fine, it is what it is… but if the Fed gov’t provides services to ALL Americans equally… why shouldn’t we all just pay the same tax. You can make a fairness argument on this point.

[mookiemcgee]

Even IF the “rich” paid a lower percentage… which they don’t… they would still being paying a higher total dollar.

We have a graduated income tax… and fine, it is what it is… but if the Fed gov’t provides services to ALL Americans equally… why shouldn’t we all just pay the same tax. You can make a fairness argument on this point.

Yes if you don't care about budgets, or the success of the country now or in the future and just want to argue in favor of something retarded for the sake of it... then you could argue a homeless person should pay the same number of tax dollars as Elon musk.

[jimboston]

Even IF the “rich” paid a lower percentage… which they don’t… they would still being paying a higher total dollar.

We have a graduated income tax… and fine, it is what it is… but if the Fed gov’t provides services to ALL Americans equally… why shouldn’t we all just pay the same tax. You can make a fairness argument on this point.

Yes if you don't care about budgets, or the success of the country now or in the future and just want to argue in favor of something retarded for the sake of it... then you could argue a homeless person should pay the same number of tax dollars as Elon musk.

This comment is pointing out the ridiculousness of the Left argument… which ALWAYS favors just “increasing the tax on the rich”. With no discussion about budget values, priorities, and waste.

This comment was directed at the idiots… not you.

… but you did ignore my other comments. Should I assume you agree with those points?

[saxitoxin]

Yeah, Saxi is using those Republican fact-checkers...

CNN, the Washington Post, PolitiFact, Factcheck.org, and the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics are "Republican fact-checkers?"

[mookiemcgee]

Even IF the “rich” paid a lower percentage… which they don’t… they would still being paying a higher total dollar.

We have a graduated income tax… and fine, it is what it is… but if the Fed gov’t provides services to ALL Americans equally… why shouldn’t we all just pay the same tax. You can make a fairness argument on this point.

Yes if you don't care about budgets, or the success of the country now or in the future and just want to argue in favor of something retarded for the sake of it... then you could argue a homeless person should pay the same number of tax dollars as Elon musk.

This comment is pointing out the ridiculousness of the Left argument… which ALWAYS favors just “increasing the tax on the rich”. With no discussion about budget values, priorities, and waste.

This comment was directed at the idiots… not you.

… but you did ignore my other comments. Should I assume you agree with those points?

Is that the argument I made? Tax the rich and don't cut anything? Cus i thought every post I've made here suggests you can't affect change without doing both bringing in more revenue and reducing spending.

So far you've argued for no 'big' spending cuts, no increased taxes... just let jim root and around and choose some things he feels are wasteful and then boom the deficit disappears.

Alternatively you've argued we return spending to 2010 level which means cutting the budget in half. So you want to cut spending in half, and you don't want to factor the 40% inflation experienced in that time period into it. So Jim is effectively calling for ending Medicaid and social security entirely, and probably ending all veteran related spending too as a way to balance the budget... and it's 'unreasonable' to even allow into the discussion the idea of a 150m/year earned to pay 5% more.

You like to talk in retarded boomer generalities like stopping the military from paying for sex change operations is somehow magically going to solve the US gov't debt crisis. The reality is no meaningful amount of money gets spent on stupid shit like that, it actuall goes to: actual military spending , making sure old people who are retired aren't homeless, making sure your colon cancer treatment doesn't make you homeless, making sure veterans aren't homeless (even with the spending we kind fail here now).

[jimboston]

[GaryDenton]

I have been busy in Real Life and missed a number of posts.

I see someone tried to use the Tax Foundation, also known as the Koch's favorite charity to make them richer, when they aren't actually running it. Check the directors against the directors of the Koch corporations.

Conservatives assume fact-checkers are liberal, and that the mass media is liberal, which is laughable. The Washington Post fact checker is notorious for being a conservative clown, going out of his way to make Democrats look bad. Except SAXI showed not fact-checkers, but Elon Musk's user "context system" where the crazies, and maybe some not-so-crazy users, attempt rebuttals of stuff they don't like.

Those fact-checks against Biden always have the same format. Biden claimed this fact, which while TRUE fails to acknowledge X so we can claim it is really FALSE. If you have to acknowledge what Biden says is True, just stop there and don't lump him in the torrent of falsehoods.

On Trump lately, you can say, on his latest unhinged rant Trump made 10 claims, They are flatly false, contradictory, lacking logic, evidence of a mental disturbance, and piled on BS.

"Unrealized capital gains" are how the European, Chinese, and other dynastic powerful families dynasties were created.
The Founding Fathers feared a standing army, with the recent Russian fracas illustrating their fear. Armies become loyal to their leaders, not the state, and the establishment of powerful dynasties. Letting income streams and capital increases not be taxed but accumulated leads to the power family dynasties and the rest of us serfs.

Jefferson, no poor man if you have seen his mansion, feared this and recommended taxation solutions: “another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.” - Thomas Jefferson, 1786
Adam Smith, a progressive economist, created the economic text they drew from: 'The Wealth of Nations'. Progressive taxation, no monopolies, among other things was the solution to more fair system.

This is where Biden's True Fact comes from. The wealthy are paying 8%, but yes, that includes unrealized capital appreciation.

Corporate income taxes are now only 6% of government revenue, less than half of the 70s not to mention the ideal situation in the early 50s.

And what are your taxes? According to a 2021 White House study, the wealthiest 400 billionaire families in the US paid an average federal individual tax rate of just 8.2 percent.

In theory, our tax system is designed to tax the rich at higher rates than everyone else. That’s not the way it works at the loftiest incomes. The data reveals a system where the very highest earners, on average, pay far lower tax rates than the merely affluent do. And even among the top 400, some groups have it better than others: Tech billionaires pay rates well below even other business owners. Wealthiest Americans pay just 3.4% of income in taxes. (A separate study not connected to the White House.)

And you know of course that Social Security is limited as income rises and stops at $160,200.

There is no problem with the outgo, it is the income where taxes now falls only on the middle class.

Reagan is the great Republican hero because, among other things, he broke the progressive tax system and removed restraints on Fake News stations. Billionaire taxes went from 70% to 28%. Think of that, from 70% to 28%. With that tax cut the wealthy wanted to have a shrine to Raegan in every city and county and Republicans quickly did the mass naming project, slapping his name everywhere.

[jusplay4fun]

And I see that Gary D offers NO links or sources. He attacks MINE, but offers NOTHING but his conjectures and opinions. Shame on Gary.

And Reagan did NOT BREAK the progressive income tax system. This is merely more LIES and Fake News by leftists like Gary D.

Let's try one more source:

Top One Percent of U.S. Taxpayers Paid Nearly Half of All Income Taxes in 2020
The top one percent paid more than 42 percent of all income taxes paid to the federal government, an amount that is more than everyone in the bottom 90 percent combined.

Over time, high-income Americans have shouldered a larger and larger share of the cost of government. Even the 2017 tax cuts—reviled by the political left—reduced tax bills for the lowest-income Americans by 10% while only cutting taxes for the top 1% by 0.04%. After the tax cuts, the rich pay a larger—not smaller—share of income taxes.

In fact, by almost every measure, the U.S. has one of the most progressive systems of taxation in the world, in which high-income people pay the highest tax rates.

https://www.nysun.com/article/top-one-percent-of-u-s-taxpayers-paid-nearly-half-of-all-income-taxes-in-2020

and one more, from the IRS:

The latest government data show that in 2018, the top 1% of income earners—those who earned more than $540,000—earned 21% of all U.S. income while paying 40% of all federal income taxes. The top 10% earned 48% of the income and paid 71% of federal income taxes.

Over time, high-income Americans have shouldered a larger and larger share of the cost of government. Even the 2017 tax cuts—reviled by the political left—reduced tax bills for the lowest-income Americans by 10% while only cutting taxes for the top 1% by 0.04%. After the tax cuts, the rich pay a larger—not smaller—share of income taxes.

In fact, by almost every measure, the U.S. has one of the most progressive systems of taxation in the world, in which high-income people pay the highest tax rates.

https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commentary/1-chart-how-much-the-rich-pay-taxes

For those who do not know, the IRS is a right wing political action committee.....NOT..!!

[jimboston]

Jefferson, no poor man if you have seen his mansion, feared this and recommended taxation solutions: “another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.” - Thomas Jefferson, 1786

Jefferson was a hypocrite.

[jimboston]

This is where Biden's True Fact comes from. The wealthy are paying 8%, but yes, that includes unrealized capital appreciation.

How would you even tax unrealized gains?

It could force people to sell stock just to pay taxes.

f*ck long-term investing. That’s your solution?

I don’t think you know what you are talking about and I don’t think you even understand what Unrealized Capital Gains are.

You also completely ignore the FACT that even if we agree with your math… “the Rich” pay the bulk of the taxes.

[mookiemcgee]

This is where Biden's True Fact comes from. The wealthy are paying 8%, but yes, that includes unrealized capital appreciation.

How would you even tax unrealized gains?

It could force people to sell stock just to pay taxes.

f*ck long-term investing. That’s your solution?

I don’t think you know what you are talking about and I don’t think you even understand what Unrealized Capital Gains are.

You also completely ignore the FACT that even if we agree with your math… “the Rich” pay the bulk of the taxes.

Once again you ignore the fact THE RICH HAVE THE BULK OF THE INCOME & MONEY SO THEY PAY THE BULK OF THE TAXES.

The only world where that is not true, is when the poorest are actually not very poor (socialism), or the rich are actually not very rich (theoretical communism). Now I'm not arguing for either of those, but the only countries you can point to where the poor are 'fairly well off' are socialist countries, and there are no 'real' communist countries where no one is at the top of the pyramid.

JUST FOR THE RECORD UNREALIZED CAPITAL GAINS TAXES ARE A STUPID IDEA FOR AMERICA

[saxitoxin]

I've become bored of this thread.

I'm wandering outta this thread like Biden wandered off the TV set today with the cameras still rolling --

[mookiemcgee]

For those who do not know, the IRS is a right wing political action committee.....NOT..!!

the numbers (from the IRS) are real... but the graphic is designed by heritage.org which is a right wing think tank funded by the Koch family (who are well known for funding PACs and right wing think tanks).

It very common for ultra wealthy people to have little to no income, and instead they borrow against large stock holdings instead of selling them. as an example:

I buy 1,000,000 shares of stock X at $1/each = 1m in value
5 years go by and the stock is now worth $10/share = 10m in value
If I sell any I will have to pay capital gains tax
Instead, I borrow 2m in cash from a bank with my stock as collateral, this has no tax implications whatsoever. I can live off this as though it were income... There is nothing illegal about this, and I've effectively secured 2m to live off of while paying no income taxes.

Now of course it would be totally unfair to tax me on any of this. I already pay my fair share and there are people who only pay 12%! Why can't we just squeeze another 5% out of them!

[jimboston]

Once again you ignore the fact THE RICH HAVE THE BULK OF THE INCOME & MONEY SO THEY PAY THE BULK OF THE TAXES.

I don’t ignore this at all. I don’t need to point out the fact that “the rich” have the most money, because by definition that is what makes them “the rich”.

My whole point, which you ignore, is to argue against the Lefty propaganda that “the rich” do not “pay their fair share” in taxes. As I stated before, “fair share” is subjective. The Left ignores this by perpetuating the LIE that “the rich” pay less actual taxes than the working class. This is a Lie.. “The Rich” pay more taxes per person than any other income bracket. You can go in social media and see interview after interview of people who have been “educated” by the Mainstream Media Narrative who believe “the rich” pay less actual taxes (not a lower percentage depending on the calculation, but less actual taxes) than other income brackets. The Left has indoctrinated these people to believe that “the rich” get out of paying taxes because the “hide their money” or “use tax loopholes” or some other bullshit reason.

Yes… many “rich” people max their 401K and IRA, setup Trusts, and keep money tied up in investments to minimize their tax liability… but they still wind up paying huge sums in taxes. (and yes Gary) You find extreme examples of some ultra-rich taking liberty with the law to hide income in ways that are illegal or borderline. These are the extremes.

The only world where that is not true, is when the poorest are actually not very poor (socialism), or the rich are actually not very rich (theoretical communism). Now I'm not arguing for either of those, but the only countries you can point to where the poor are 'fairly well off' are socialist countries, and there are no 'real' communist countries where no one is at the top of the pyramid.

Yawn. Also… I disagree, because “fairly well off” is subjective. In the US we have some extreme poverty… and there are some generation issues associates with wealth and class. I won’t ignore that. However, the vast majority of the extreme poor who live on their street are there NOT because of opportunity issues but rather because of mental health or drug issues. I will NOT claim that the working class in the USA “have it easy”, but I will claim that the relative wealth/living standard of “the working class” in America today is;
1) better / higher than it’s even been in our history.
2) better / higher than the standard of living of “middle class” people in many (not all but many) parts of the world today.

JUST FOR THE RECORD UNREALIZED CAPITAL GAINS TAXES ARE A STUPID IDEA FOR AMERICA

Yes. Idiotic people like Gary don’t even know what Unrealized Gains are and so, like most Lefties, the instinct is to tax now and ask questions later.

[jimboston]

For those who do not know, the IRS is a right wing political action committee.....NOT..!!

the numbers (from the IRS) are real... but the graphic is designed by heritage.org which is a right wing think tank funded by the Koch family (who are well known for funding PACs and right wing think tanks).

It very common for ultra wealthy people to have little to no income, and instead they borrow against large stock holdings instead of selling them. as an example:

I buy 1,000,000 shares of stock X at $1/each = 1m in value
5 years go by and the stock is now worth $10/share = 10m in value
If I sell any I will have to pay capital gains tax
Instead, I borrow 2m in cash from a bank with my stock as collateral, this has no tax implications whatsoever. I can live off this as though it were income... There is nothing illegal about this, and I've effectively secured 2m to live off of while paying no income taxes.

Now of course it would be totally unfair to tax me on any of this. I already pay my fair share and there are people who only pay 12%! Why can't we just squeeze another 5% out of them!

Interesting graph… interesting to see how that middle group (about $150K to $220) seem to get a break.

Your scenario with the loan is fine… but you’re glossing over some parts…

*The ultra rich who can take these loans likely have income coming from many sources.
So they are probably paying taxes on other revenue streams.

*They have to have some other income or they have to cash-out some investments to pay those loans. Yes, they can keep rolling loans from year to year… and they may do this depending on who is in power and if their are any pending tax cuts coming… but eventual they need income to pay those loans.

[bigtoughralf]

inb4 someone says 'Laffer Curve'

[Dukasaur]

inb4 someone says 'Laffer Curve'

Sorry, I'm on vacation. Not getting into anything deep.

[GaryDenton]

Again I am finding Real Life interfering or would have replied to some statements.

Until I find time I leave you with this latest anecdote.

Conservative Christians were shopping for a case to press their idea that business owners can discriminate against those they chose to serve. They wanted it to be discrimination against gays. They got a web designer to be their test case. There was a problem after they filed the lawsuit, it was only hypothetical damages because they hadn't rejected anyone or suffered any damages. Conservative judges were still eager to set a precedent but frequently cases are being thrown out for lack of standing. Suddenly, the day after the case is scheduled, a miraculous order appears which is what they want, a gay couple asking for design services, perfect. It is quickly incorporated into the case and featured in the press releases. The case makes its way through the system. Only the day before the Supreme Court is going to issue its infamous ruling does a reporter contact their only example of someone who tried to place an order for services. The married heterosexual didn't place any order to post info on his supposed gay wedding.

The Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), a conservative Christian legal advocacy group, may as well say we are Christians, we can LIE and make up documents in a court case and be forgiven, because it is for a good cause - Hate for sinners.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/jun/29/supreme-court-lgbtq-document-veracity-colorado

Of course, there is no proof who placed the fake order which happened to be exactly what they thought they needed. But who knew and who benefitted?

And who has a tradition of lying for a "good cause"?



...

[GaryDenton]

Wow. The Supreme Court opinions are now showcasing the justices bickering.

A closer read is that the moderates and liberals have had it with the crazy conservatives on the court lying and that the conservatives strongly resent being called out.

A number of articles going into the judges attacking each other in their opinions now.

Here is one.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/06/john-roberts-supreme-court-kills-student-debt-relief.html

.

[jimboston]

Is this where Gary goes off the edge completely with his conspiracy theory’s.