Conquer Club

Posted: **Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:52 pm**

Republicans are really ramping up their block the vote practice this year in Ohio and Florida. Now, most of us already know that they did this in 2000, 2004, and 2008. But this year they're going all-out in Ohio to block Black voters. They need to stop about 3% of votes altogether to carry the state. They've attempted to purge black voters, restrict voting locations and hours, and require multiple layers of identification before voting.

Doug Priesse (R) Ohio wrote:I guess I really actually feel we shouldn’t contort the voting process to accommodate the urban -- read African-American -- voter-turnout machine,"

Ohio Secretary Of State Removes Democratic Members Of Election Board For Supporting Weekend Voting
Obama beats Romney in every poll including 94% - 0% among African Americans
Showdown Looming Between Rick Scott and Monroe Elections Supervisor?
Missouri Conservative Senate Candidate Calls For Repeal Of Voting Rights Act (AUDIO)

Rolling Stone Magazine - The GOP War on Voting

Jon Stewart Slams Voter ID Laws That 'Cockblock The Vote' (VIDEO)

Posted: **Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:31 am**

Juan_Bottom wrote:Obama beats Romney in every poll including 94% - 0% among African Americans

Can you look at such a poll and actually say with a straight face that such a result is legitimate? Furthermore, let's assume it were true for just a minute: Wouldn't that be a clear sign of racism? What if the poll had said "Romney beats Obama 94-0% among white males"? You'd cry racism over that.

And just to help debunk things, you should look up this hashtag on Twitter.

Story: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/black-conservatives-make-their-voices-heard-after-poll-shows-romney-support-among-african-americans-at-zero-percent/

Posted: **Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:50 pm**

Voter ID has 70%+ support across the board. Only the Progressives are screaming murder, and only Progressives keep on picking the worst possible issues to scream about.

This issue is also a huge loser. If one is a Democrat and wishes their party to win, they should hope that the Democratic Party does not pick up the issue of voter ID, because it makes far too much common sense to show ID when one votes.

But by all means, keep trying to distract (so obvious) everyone from the worst economy since the Great Depression getting even worse...

Posted: **Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:06 pm**

Phatscotty wrote:Voter ID has 70%+ support across the board. Only the Progressives are screaming murder, and only Progressives keep on picking the worst possible issues to scream about.

This issue is also a huge loser. If one is a Democrat and wishes their party to win, they should hope that the Democratic Party does not pick up the issue of voter ID, because it makes far too much common sense to show ID when one votes.

But by all means, keep trying to distract (so obvious) everyone from the worst economy since the Great Depression getting even worse...

On the other side of the coin, if voter fraud isn't that big of an issue, why require Voter ID's? Seems like more work than its worth. What we should do is decide if the rate of voter fraud prevented is greater than or equal to the amount of people restricted by not having ID's that vote, and legislate appropriately.

While I'm pretty sure that it isn't greater than that amount, and am not in support of Voter ID laws, there are enough barriers/reasons people conjure up to not vote (among all races, classes). We hardly need to add another.

-rd

Posted: **Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:27 pm**

I view voter identification laws with some suspiscion for two reasons. First, and most important, it will cost money. Second, and least important, I have to sign a book when I vote; I think that's enough of a "barrier."

Posted: **Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:24 pm**

i used my diploma instead of my birth certificate to get my driver license here in texas...

actually, i don't think i've ever had a need to produce my birth certificate since i've left home.

i guess it's because i'm not a democrat

EDIT; i think that in order to be president, you have to win a triathlon, then a dirt track race with outlaw cars, then a hot dog eating contest, then a game of charades, then finally you have to become a millionaire on "who wants to be a millionaire". i think if someone can do all that, then that's who i want for my president.

all joking aside. i'm serious. i'd really be all for that.

Posted: **Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:22 pm**

rdsrds2120 wrote:
Phatscotty wrote:Voter ID has 70%+ support across the board. Only the Progressives are screaming murder, and only Progressives keep on picking the worst possible issues to scream about.

This issue is also a huge loser. If one is a Democrat and wishes their party to win, they should hope that the Democratic Party does not pick up the issue of voter ID, because it makes far too much common sense to show ID when one votes.

But by all means, keep trying to distract (so obvious) everyone from the worst economy since the Great Depression getting even worse...

On the other side of the coin, if voter fraud isn't that big of an issue, why require Voter ID's? Seems like more work than its worth. What we should do is decide if the rate of voter fraud prevented is greater than or equal to the amount of people restricted by not having ID's that vote, and legislate appropriately.

While I'm pretty sure that it isn't greater than that amount, and am not in support of Voter ID laws, there are enough barriers/reasons people conjure up to not vote (among all races, classes). We hardly need to add another.

-rd

It's not that voter fraud isn't that big of an issue, it's that the other side of the coin holds something as not a big issue but does not seem to incorporate that the crime of voter fraud is extremely difficult to prove. I mean, to pretend that people don't vote illegally when there is SO much on the line.....that's why I put in "common sense". Because we all know that people break the rules, especially when there is no enforcement and the rate that people get away with it is about 99.999%, so it's going to happen and it does happen, sometimes even by the bus load.

On the rim of the coin and in small and silent writing, there are also an interesting number of states (Rhode Island for one) and cities where the Democrats want and have passed and approved voter ID when Republican's are suspected of cheating, which we all also know is going to happen and does happen. Which is why it comes back to common sense that both sides are going to try to cheat, especially when it's going to be an extremely close vote.

Showing your ID is a common and accepted form of validating all kinds of important information. It's hard to find another issue where so many Americans agree on anything, and that's why it's going to be so hard for modern Liberals to divide the people on this issue, and that is also why I state it's a losing issue to pick up for the Democrats. There are plenty of Democrats who agree that voter ID seems common sense.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:53 pm**

Night Strike wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:Obama beats Romney in every poll including 94% - 0% among African Americans

Can you look at such a poll and actually say with a straight face that such a result is legitimate? Furthermore, let's assume it were true for just a minute: Wouldn't that be a clear sign of racism? What if the poll had said "Romney beats Obama 94-0% among white males"? You'd cry racism over that.

And just to help debunk things, you should look up this hashtag on Twitter.

Story: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/black-conservatives-make-their-voices-heard-after-poll-shows-romney-support-among-african-americans-at-zero-percent/

African Americans are also overwhelmingly religious. They have a lot in common with Conservatives,.... well, they are Conservatives. BUT! they don't vote Republican because Republicans make them scapegoats for everything, as that Lee Atwater quote suggests. Southern Blacks are hit pretty hard by Conservative Policies, and as I explained above, many if not most Elderly blacks in the South don't even have a birth certificate to get an I.D. That's not to mention that their ability to travel is limited.
The number of blacks supporting Romney is negligible. If all black votes were blocked then Obama would be hit a lot harder than Romney.
The racism is reversed. Blacks aren't racist because they reject Romney. Republicans are racist because their policies target blacks.
Native American's are also overwhelmingly Democratic, also have trouble getting I.D.s, also have trouble traveling, and also have to deal with a restricted voting process.

You didn't even touch upon the restrictions facing blacks in Ohio or Florida.

Phatscotty wrote:Only the Progressives are screaming murder, and only Progressives keep on picking the worst possible issues to scream about.

Then I guess that we can agree that only progressives care about voting rights.

Phatscotty wrote:This issue is also a huge loser. If one is a Democrat and wishes their party to win, they should hope that the Democratic Party does not pick up the issue of voter ID, because it makes far too much common sense to show ID when one votes.

It does, until one looks at the facts.

Phatscotty wrote:It's not that voter fraud isn't that big of an issue, it's that the other side of the coin holds something as not a big issue but does not seem to incorporate that the crime of voter fraud is extremely difficult to prove.

That must be why there has only been .7 convictions per state per year;
Yet up to 700,000 votes will be blocked in Ohio alone by new Republican-created voter restrictions.

3 million votes disappeared in the Bush-Kerry election, and the overwhelming majority were minority votes for Kerry. There were thousands of ghost votes in Arizona and elsewhere as well. Voter fraud is hard to prove, because the party that's doing it is in control of the election process wherever it happens. In Ohio, they are literally limiting the voting time for black people and increasing it for white people.

Jon Husted backed out of giving a speech at a Tea-Party sponsored voter rally in Ohio after it was reported that his own True the Vote had hidden poll-watchers and were accused of voter intimidation.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:48 pm**

63-68% of African American support voter ID

Liberals have spent most of the year trying to convince Americans that voter ID laws are a false front for racist voter suppression. They argue there’s no such thing as voter fraud and that legislation aimed at combating election cheating is merely a Republican plot to steal the election. But, as a new Washington Post poll on the subject demonstrates, the majority aren’t buying it. Almost three quarters — 74 percent — believe voters should be required to show official, government-issued identification when they vote. A clear majority of those polled also think, contrary to liberal allegations, that voter ID laws are rooted in concern about a genuine problem.

These numbers have to concern Democrats who are hoping to whip up a backlash against voter ID legislation by falsely claiming they are a new form of “Jim Crow” laws intended to foster discrimination. Indeed, given the drumbeat of incitement against voter ID laws in the mainstream media, you have to wonder why there is so much resistance to the liberal line on this topic. The answer, however, is quite simple. The public knows that claims that voter fraud is nonexistent run counter to everything they know about politicians, elections and human nature.

The huge numbers supporting voter ID isn’t hard to figure out. Anyone who travels or has to conduct any sort of transaction with a bank or the government know they are going to be asked to identify themselves in this manner. The notion that something as important as voting should be exempt from such a requirement makes no sense to most people.

And though a not insignificant number worry about voters being discouraged or wrongly having their franchise denied, far more understand it is more likely that politicians and parties are looking to find a way to cook the books and steal a close election than their right to vote will somehow be taken away.

After all, the vast majority of Americans already have a state-issued card with a photo, and states that have passed voter ID laws have made provisions for those without them to get one free of charge. They also know it is no harder to get one of these free ID cards than it is to register to vote in the first place. They rightly wonder why it is some think there is something sinister in having a voter prove they are eligible to vote, because it appears as if opponents of voter ID seem to be taking the position that citizens should never be asked to produce proof of residence in a state, city or district or even that they are actually American citizens. Interestingly enough, as the Post notes in their own analysis of the poll, a solid majority of both the elderly and the poor — groups it is believed will be impacted by such laws — also support voter ID.

The problem for liberals is their repeated claim that voter fraud never happens is given the lie by the controversies that bubble up every time there is a close election. Neither Republicans nor Democrats trust each other not to cheat, as the debacle of Florida in 2000 and the fight about paperless touch screen voting machines showed.

Inclusion is important, which is why states and the parties should promote voter registration drives to ensure that every qualified citizen who wishes to vote has the opportunity. But it is no less important than the need to ensure that our elections are fair and honest. The Post poll demonstrates that when it comes to fraud, most people weren’t born yesterday. They realize that protecting democracy requires vigilance against both exclusion and cheating.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/ ... nse-fraud/

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:31 pm**

And that is total proof that means that Voter I.D. must be legit.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:37 pm**

Juan, can I go buy a gun without an I.D.?

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:17 pm**

Voting is a joke. Should we vote for the Yale guy getting backed by big business or the Harvard one? Income gap increases, deficit increases, war spending increases, privatization increases, incarceration rate increases. Rich and powerful become more so, poor and marginalized become more so. These are constants.

Our president is voted in by less than 1/6 of our population. People can't vote or can't be bothered. My favorite election was Bush vs Kerry. Yale guy with daddy's money and Yale guy with wife's money. This isn't democracy, every four years we are treated to a spectacle that makes us feel we have some control, but indeed the outcome is fixed. My favorite part is when the democrats act like they support the little guy but always have to side with the rich on this one.

And before you start throwing a bunch of bullshit at me, my mother is a senior legal consultant for one of the two major international financial institutions. I'm from a rich family. I should know. We don't suffer during a financial crisis, we become richer. We only give a shit about who becomes president when we have a personal connection, such as when my grandfather was given a leading post in the Whitehouse.

Imagine that you are making an important decision all you like. Arrests for marijuana are at a record high with our sympathetic president in office. We have created a series of bureaus and departments and given them massive power out of fear and they will not go away. You may think that your piece of paper anonymously or not dropped in a box thousands of miles away affects change more than a box full of paper handed over in person, but you are wrong.

I lived overseas most of my life and the funniest thing to listen to is an American talking about freedom. They act like it exists. Although its true that my mothers job is to help enact oppressive measures on a country that takes a loan from her institution which are dictated by the American government, these measures usually just strip those countries of economic freedom, whereas individually freedom is still much higher than in the states. I am American and we have the highest incarceration rate in overall numbers as well as per capita.

So enjoy your freedom to vote away your freedom as much as you can.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:25 pm**

_sabotage_ wrote:Voting is a joke. Should we vote for the Yale guy getting backed by big business or the Harvard one? Income gap increases, deficit increases, war spending increases, privatization increases, incarceration rate increases. Rich and powerful become more so, poor and marginalized become more so. These are constants.

Our president is voted in by less than 1/6 of our population. People can't vote or can't be bothered. My favorite election was Bush vs Kerry. Yale guy with daddy's money and Yale guy with wife's money. This isn't democracy, every four years we are treated to a spectacle that makes us feel we have some control, but indeed the outcome is fixed. My favorite part is when the democrats act like they support the little guy but always have to side with the rich on this one.

And before you start throwing a bunch of bullshit at me, my mother is a senior legal consultant for one of the two major international financial institutions. I'm from a rich family. I should know. We don't suffer during a financial crisis, we become richer. We only give a shit about who becomes president when we have a personal connection, such as when my grandfather was given a leading post in the Whitehouse.

Imagine that you are making an important decision all you like. Arrests for marijuana are at a record high with our sympathetic president in office. We have created a series of bureaus and departments and given them massive power out of fear and they will not go away. You may think that your piece of paper anonymously or not dropped in a box thousands of miles away affects change more than a box full of paper handed over in person, but you are wrong.

I lived overseas most of my life and the funniest thing to listen to is an American talking about freedom. They act like it exists. Although its true that my mothers job is to help enact oppressive measures on a country that takes a loan from her institution which are dictated by the American government, these measures usually just strip those countries of economic freedom, whereas individually freedom is still much higher than in the states. I am American and we have the highest incarceration rate in overall numbers as well as per capita.

So enjoy your freedom to vote away your freedom as much as you can.

And then comes the ultimate question which echoes across history:

"What is to be done?"

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:02 pm**

Stop acting like we know everything as a country and individually. Don't listen to opinions, look at facts. Most issues are well known by very few individuals and those which become the popular public opinion are those promoted by the companies and instituions with the greatest resources and greatest potential gain. Facts are widely available and usually dismissed with: We're America though. We might as well say: I'm Rick James, bitch.

Of course facts can be distorted and manipulated. But in general if you see a police officer saying crime is on the rise and they require more resources to deal with it, you'll usually find that they received them last time, which directly led to the crime rate rising. I wouldn't expect to see a police officer say, you are all safe and don't need me, I'll become a plumber and stop taking your money and enjoying my authority.

Our country is one of the few developed countries that uses distraction and fear to promote our policies and in general is far behind the curve of those which use data and the underlying principal that they work for us.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:58 pm**

_sabotage_ wrote:Stop acting like we know everything as a country and individually. Don't listen to opinions, look at facts. Most issues are well known by very few individuals and those which become the popular public opinion are those promoted by the companies and instituions with the greatest resources and greatest potential gain. Facts are widely available and usually dismissed with: We're America though. We might as well say: I'm Rick James, bitch.

Of course facts can be distorted and manipulated. But in general if you see a police officer saying crime is on the rise and they require more resources to deal with it, you'll usually find that they received them last time, which directly led to the crime rate rising. I wouldn't expect to see a police officer say, you are all safe and don't need me, I'll become a plumber and stop taking your money and enjoying my authority.

Our country is one of the few developed countries that uses distraction and fear to promote our policies and in general is far behind the curve of those which use data and the underlying principal that they work for us.

For almost everyone, absorbing and creating opinions is less costly than the costs of gathering valid information. So, given this incentive, the appeal to "look at facts" will not be convincing enough to most people. Besides, people without the credentials love presuming to have the requisite knowledge of other fields (e.g. PLAYER932838, Noam Chomsky on economics, etc.).

You're right to recognize that institutional problem about self-reinforcing loops. Those in power tend to eat their own shit, to put it bluntly. The same can be said of the Keynesians and the Federal Reserve---whose own employees will publish findings which show that deflation does not lead to a recession, yet that is ignored by the chief bureaucrats (e.g. Bernanke).

Regarding the police, it's that bureaucratic incentive at play. The budget won't grow unless you imagine the problems and/or spend more money.

On your last paragraph, I'm hesitant to agree. The US and its bureaucracies use plenty of data--which suits their own preconceived notions, but...

(1) how are other developed countries different?

(2) And which developed countries do not "use distraction and fear to promote their policies"?

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:11 pm**

I believe we would need to agree on the role of government to proceed with this discussion.

1. Government acts as a mediator for its people in international affairs.
2. Government acts to make economic opportunities available to its people.
3. Government acts to benefit its people in matters of security, education and health.
4. Government acts to provide services that a private sector may use to exploit the population.

These of course are mere suggestions at the government's role and I'm happy to have them amended.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:19 pm**

_sabotage_ wrote:I believe we would need to agree on the role of government to proceed with this discussion.

1. Government acts as a mediator for its people in international affairs.
2. Government acts to make economic opportunities available to its people.
3. Government acts to benefit its people in matters of security, education and health.
4. Government acts to provide services that a private sector may use to exploit the population.

These of course are mere suggestions at the government's role and I'm happy to have them amended.

Hmm... I'm not sure I agree with any of those suggested government roles.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:25 pm**

That's sweet greekdog. I guess you don't agree with providing alternatives either.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:28 pm**

_sabotage_ wrote:I believe we would need to agree on the role of government to proceed with this discussion.

1. Government acts as a mediator for its people in international affairs.
2. Government acts to make economic opportunities available to its people.
3. Government acts to benefit its people in matters of security, education and health.
4. Government acts to provide services that a private sector may use to exploit the population.

These of course are mere suggestions at the government's role and I'm happy to have them amended.

1. For affairs involving war, sure. For the economical, no.
2. That's too vague for me. That could mean anything from "100% import tariffs + Welfare State" to "Only military, roads, courts."
3. Probably most bureaucrats and most politicians act to benefit their constituents in matters of security, education, and health. But well-intended policies lead to unintended consequences whose costs, that may be long-term or short-, usually aren't included in the calculations of politicians and bureaucrats during the development of public policy. And if they are included to whatever impartial degree, the unintended consequences and their costs can still be difficult to remedy and easy to avoid by blaming others or by simply ignoring the costs.
4. The government coerces its citizens in order to generate tax revenues. Haha, talk about "exploitation." The Government monopolizes the courts to somewhat counterbalance itself while giving the individuals within the markets a means to seek legal redress. I'll admit that some corporations use the government to gain benefits for themselves at the cost of others (e.g. rent-seeking), but this is largely due to such sentiments underlying your #1, #2, #3, which delegates such overwhelming power to the State/government.

5. What's the difference between a voluntary exchange and an involuntary exchange?
6. What's interesting is that your earlier posts mentions all these institutional problems with democracies and bureaucracies, yet your 1-4 will simply lead to the same problems which annoy you.

7. Your point about other countries is still lacking and not relevant to the above.

show

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:35 pm**

I can see that you follow the Chicago school of thought.
If we can't confine the role of government, I think we would be speaking at cross purposes in describing how ours carries out their role in comparison with other nations.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:40 pm**

_sabotage_ wrote:I can see that you follow the Chicago school of thought.
If we can't confine the role of government, I think we would be speaking at cross purposes in describing how ours carries out their role in comparison with other nations.

Hmm. Those neoclassicists? Please.

To describe myself, I guess I'm in the Public Choice, New Institutional Economics, and Austrian Economics camps. In other words, in favor of free enterprise--but not the version distorted by practically all politicians and misunderstood by almost all leftists.

I can be very flexible, so go ahead. The point of being a positive economist is to work with given value judgments, so for the sake of debate, I'll accept yours as given.

So, please. I really want to see you defend your extremely bold assertions.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:08 pm**

Night Strike wrote:Juan, can I go buy a gun without an I.D.?

Only if you buy from shops. You don't need an I.D. to buy a gun in the streets or to buy one at gun shows in many states.

A quick google search shows that Repubs have done more this decade to block minorities from voting than they have to regulate guns.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:24 pm**

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, can I go buy a gun without an I.D.?

Only if you buy from shops. You don't need an I.D. to buy a gun in the streets or to buy one at gun shows in many states.

A quick google search shows that Repubs have done more this decade to block minorities from voting than they have to regulate guns.

So why isn't showing an ID to buy a gun from a shop a violation of my rights?

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:28 pm**

Juan_Bottom wrote:
Night Strike wrote:Juan, can I go buy a gun without an I.D.?

Only if you buy from shops. You don't need an I.D. to buy a gun in the streets or to buy one at gun shows in many states.

A quick google search shows that Repubs have done more this decade to block minorities from voting than they have to regulate guns.

A quick google search shows that nuclear reactors in Camp Peddleton are actually mind control devices, and aliens made the Pyramids, and 9-11 was carried out by Israeli commandos using thermite and kittens.

Posted: **Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:32 pm**

I KNEW IT!!!

Conquer Club

Block the Vote 2012

Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012

Re: Block the Vote 2012