Conquer Club

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:28 pm**

It was after all 1800 years since they last lived there. Then all of a sudden they shall move back, nevermind the people who's lived there for the last 1800 years, just push them out of their homes and bomb the shit out of them.
I think I've made my own opinion on the matter clear

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:52 pm**

Jewish folk have been living in the area for a long time. I'm not sure why you think that the area comprising modern day Israel was somehow devoid of Judaism for 18 centuries, but I will be the guy who calls BS on your farce.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:18 pm**

Symmetry wrote:Jewish folk have been living in the area for a long time. I'm not sure why you think that the area comprising modern day Israel was somehow devoid of Judaism for 18 centuries, but I will be the guy who calls BS on your farce.

Lol. I read that last line as "I will be the guy who calls BS on your face."

I agree with you though.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:24 pm**

Just like Europeans have been living in North America for a long time...

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:37 pm**

what was done was done, and i don't think it would be right to throw them out now.

But the way they treat the Palestinian people is no better than they were treated in the ghetto's of the second world war.

And i bet my balls Israel would NOT give all the occupied land back(1948map) and let the form there own state.

Off topic.....

1, If Israel attacks Iran is that an act of war? And will US and the rest of the countries say that Iran has the right to defend it's self?

2, Will the rest of the world in-force sanction on the USA and Australia for breaking the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons for supplying India with nuclear technology and nuclear materials?

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:01 pm**

We can define Zionism as having two distinct and separate beliefs:

(1) That a Jewish state should be created to give Jews a refuge from the anti-Semitism of Europe. We will call this secular Zionism.
(2) That the Jews are destined and must work toward controlling Jerusalem and the surrounding area. We will call this religious Zionism.

Again, these are separate beliefs. A Jewish state could easily be created in another part of the world, and the Jews will have achieved their secular mission. Enter the British Uganda Programme, a plan to create a Jewish state in an uninhabited section of Kenya in 1903, almost splitting the Zionist movement in two. The opposition to this plan in the 6th Zionist Congress cited only religious reasons, and a segment of them walked out in anger. This resulted in a vote in favor of the plan. After surveying the land, they found a good climate for European settlement. But they rejected the plan at the 7th Congress, again citing only religious reasons.

Imagine what a world of difference we'd see had the secular Zionists won out. Sure, they saw this as a quick and temporary solution, but in reality there would be no one willing to stomach migrating from Europe to Kenya then to Palestine. Only the religious fanatics would be calling for the seizing of Palestinian land, and the Kenya Israel would have likely been permanent.

Of course, since then the religious Zionists have been the only ones running the show.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:58 pm**

Arab critics of Israel speak of Jewish migration to Palestine after World War I, neglecting to mention that there has been a substantial and continuous Jewish presence in the land for over three thousand years, and a steady Jewish majority in Jerusalem. Nor do they care to remember that when, after World War II, the General Assembly proposed to partition Palestine, this followed an earlier (1922) and illegal partition by the British which gave almost 80% of the land promised to the Jews by the Balfour Declaration to create the Arab state of Transjordan. Thus, at the time of the 1947 partition vote in the United Nations, the Jews had already been unlawfully deprived of four-fifths of their entitlement.

- Louis Rene Beres
Professor of International Law
Department of Political Science
Purdue University

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:32 pm**

Anyone else think they might be having discussions like this about the UK in the future?

Lock it up.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:34 pm**

2dimes wrote:Anyone else think they might be having discussions like this about the UK in the future?

Lock it up.

What, you think they might want to give England back to the Danes?

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:43 pm**

Dukasaur wrote:
2dimes wrote:Anyone else think they might be having discussions like this about the UK in the future?

Lock it up.

What, you think they might want to give England back to the Danes?

At least you gave them the dignity of a capital letter. Gillipig's thread title should be a huge warning sign that he's really quite nasty.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:36 pm**

GreecePwns wrote:Only the religious fanatics would be calling for the seizing of Palestinian land, and the Kenya Israel would have likely been permanent.

First of all please excuse the deletion of most of the quote. But I really just wanted to focus on this one part of the comment in detail. A people can move or be moved to another location but who they are is tied with the land. The Israelite people are the perfect example of this as History has shown.

After the reign of King Solomon the Kingdom of Israel was divided into two Kingdoms. Ten of the twelve and northern most tribes broke away from the rule of Jeroboam the son of Solomon and became known as the Northern Kingdom of Israel. With ten of the twelve tribes removed, only Judah and Benjamin continued under David’s dynasty. They were then known as the Southern Kingdom of Judah.

For like two centuries these to separate nations or Kingdoms coexisted side by side, at times at war with each other and other times banded against common foes but each kingdom having it's own king ruling over them. In the case of the Northern Kingdom of Israel they went through 19 kings and 7 dynasties before the Assyrian Empire conquered the Kingdom of Israel. This initial captivity, called the Galilean Captivity, occurred about the years 734-732 B.C.

So why the history lesson? Because most people naturally assume that all Israelites' are Jews and they are not. The fact is that the Kingdom of Israel lost their identity due to displacement of location. The Assyrians' took the peoples from the Northern Kingdom of Israel and relocated them all to what came to be known in history as the Caucus region northeast of modern day Turkey. A land between the Seas. Today it is known as Georgia.

It is a little know fact that these people, The ten tribes of Israel Never returned to their homes in the Northern Kingdom of Israel. They became in fact, the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel." The entire northern kingdom was removed from the land that God had provided for them for nearly 700 years. In their place, the Assyrians moved various peoples from the region of Babylon who became known as Samaritans, after the former capital of Israel. The first century Jewish/Roman historian Josephus even noted that...

"And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased, Nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem, but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an Immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."
-Antiquities of the Jews - Book XI (Ch. 5)

The two tribes that Josephus is referring to are the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. These two tribes, the southern kingdom of Judah (the Jews), were also conquered by the Babylonian Empire about a hundred Years after the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian Empire. Babylon rose to become an even greater empire than Assyria and conquer more than Assyria had. Only difference is that the Jewish people returned to their homes during the Medo/Persian or just plain Persian Empire which conquered all that Babylon had and more. The Israelites never returned to their homes and were still beyond the Euphrates River. So far away to the north that they eventually would lose all identity of who they were. So while all Jews are Israelites, not all of Israel are Jews. It's like saying that wile all Californians are Americans, not all Americans are Californians.

So getting back to the original question; While a people can move to another location or be forcibly moved to another location, who they are is tied to the Land. For example the German People of today are the descendants of those very Assyrians who conquered Israel. And modern day Iran today are the very same Persians who conquered the Jews. But right away you could not tell from just looking at them. Take away their vast realm (territories) and the empires that they possessed, and their identity becomes something else completely. Who we are is tied to where we live.

So while Kenya may be a suitable, hospitable and lovely place to raise Children and settle down roots??? It's not Israel. And will never be! To settle for another location, no matter how sweet it may be is to sell out their own birthright and identity and forget who they are and what God has promised them and just turn their backs on The God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, who was later named, Israel.

I would also like to point out that the dispersed Jews all around the world preserved their identity by observing God's laws which separated them as a people. Everywhere they went they kept the Sabbath day holy and remembered God's promise to them that they would eventually be brought back to their own land. How God brings that about is His business. But any atrocities that God's chosen nation commits in the process, will also be dealt with Justly by the very same God who expects more from His chosen People. To whom more is given, more is expected from.

But summing this up, I believe that it Was right to repopulate the region known as Israel with Jews? Anything else would be the same as if Hitler had conquered the world and his final solution executed to it's illogical end. It is prophecy in the making, being fulfilled right before our very eyes.

All other atrocities aside of course.

Posted: **Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:57 pm**

You, my friend, are in the religious Zionist camp I described above, the camp that has ruled the Zionist movement since that 1903 debate.

Unfortunately, international law and property rights of the Palestinians cannot be overridden by the claims of a people based on a book of fairy tales they follow from millennia ago. Sorry, but that's not how the secular and rational world works.

Jews are not a chosen people by God set out to fulfill some prophecy, nor is everyone else second to them and made to serve them. They are humans just like everyone else. In fact, their history of multiple kingdoms and fighting sounds a lot like China's, or the United Kingdom's, or just about everyone else's for that matter. Why should we treat that history as special and above the rest?

Nor does their administrative power over the land thousands of years ago give them a divine right to that land today or in 1948 or any time for that matter. In fact, territorial conquests and losses have happened throughout the history of humankind. Why do the Jews deserve to be given the land without following normal conventions, while others must face the facts that they've lost territory through war or other separatist movements?

Religious Zionism is a racist ideology and the violence of Israel throughout its history is a manifestation of it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:17 am**

Lemme guess, GreecePwns is a member of Golden Dawn? Amirite?

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:21 am**

Oh, please, patches.

The anti-Semite argument would apply if I didn't oppose all religions, all theocratic states, all violations of international law, all violations of contractual property rights, all racism, etc. I don't single out the Jews in these regards at all.

I mean, you know much better than this.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:57 am**

Symmetry wrote:At least you gave them the dignity of a capital letter. Gillipig's thread title should be a huge warning sign that he's really quite nasty.

Perhaps Swedish has different capitalization rules for nationalities than English? (If) that's the case would you think jumping on Gillpig because he might have made a tiny grammar error in his second language is a little intolerant?

Viceroy63 wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Only the religious fanatics would be calling for the seizing of Palestinian land, and the Kenya Israel would have likely been permanent.

First of all please excuse the deletion of most of the quote. But I really just wanted to focus on this one part of the comment in detail. A people can move or be moved to another location but who they are is tied with the land. The Israelite people are the perfect example of this as History has shown.

First, GreecePWNS' eloquent point is absolutely correct. The Torah and Talmud are as relevant to law as an episode of Star Trek.

However, even a religious interpretation does not support a "State of Israel." In Deuteronomy Jews are absolutely forbidden from returning from exile or establishing a homeland until they are redeemed by God. Israel can only be established by command of God. The Torah does not say that, in the absence of Divine Decree, Israel can also be created by the British Deputy Permanent Secretary of Colonial Affairs tabling an order-in-council during the cabinet's Wednesday lunch meeting.

Finally, emerging scholarship may prove that there's actually no such things as Jews. See, for example: http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine ... m-1.432371 I like the Lord of the Rings as much as the next guy but I don't think we should stage a land grab somewhere to make a homeland for the Hobbits.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:44 am**

ok, this may sound a bit foolish but why is mankind so stupid?

There is no such thing as a creator. Before the big bang, time and space didn't even exist, therefore there can't be anything such as a great architect who suddenly decided to create the universe. And if there was one, he wouldn't give a damn f*ck of something trillions of times smaller than a grain of dust called the earth.

Mankind just had to invent godly concepts to explain the unexplainable at the time (even though now a days and the progress of science the existence still has tons of unexplained reasons).

Can't we just pass through this and live together in harmony? thousands of years, religions, descendance and land means shit nothing. Are Israelians and Palestinians living happier now with the conflicts they are putting themselves into? Stupid religions and history make them think they have rights over that territory. The fact is that they should just drop the guns the kipas and the burkhas, make love and mix their blood. what is racism after all? mostly thinking that having descendance with other "races"/cultures is bad.
Nationalism and religions are just 2 excuses to fullfill human's need for power and dominance over one another. Our own culture doesn't make us better than our neighbour. Let's be more conscious of our evil nature and do something about it. I know it's easier to say so than to actually do it.
Israelians and Palestinans think too much of themselves as the good guys, but they are in fact their own enemies.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:18 am**

GreecePwns wrote:Oh, please, patches.

The anti-Semite argument would apply if I didn't oppose all religions, all theocratic states, all violations of international law, all violations of contractual property rights, all racism, etc. I don't single out the Jews in these regards at all.

I mean, you know much better than this.

You oppose all theocratic states, but you don't seem to mind the Jihadists' desire to push Israel back into the sea and replace it with another theocratic Islamic dictatorship! What a two-faced joke!

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:22 am**

betiko wrote:ok, this may sound a bit foolish but why is mankind so stupid?

There is no such thing as a creator. Before the big bang, time and space didn't even exist, therefore there can't be anything such as a great architect who suddenly decided to create the universe. And if there was one, he wouldn't give a damn f*ck of something trillions of times smaller than a grain of dust called the earth.

Mankind just had to invent godly concepts to explain the unexplainable at the time (even though now a days and the progress of science the existence still has tons of unexplained reasons).

Can't we just pass through this and live together in harmony? thousands of years, religions, descendance and land means shit nothing. Are Israelians and Palestinians living happier now with the conflicts they are putting themselves into? Stupid religions and history make them think they have rights over that territory. The fact is that they should just drop the guns the kipas and the burkhas, make love and mix their blood. what is racism after all? mostly thinking that having descendance with other "races"/cultures is bad.
Nationalism and religions are just 2 excuses to fullfill human's need for power and dominance over one another. Our own culture doesn't make us better than our neighbour. Let's be more conscious of our evil nature and do something about it. I know it's easier to say so than to actually do it.
Israelians and Palestinans think too much of themselves as the good guys, but they are in fact their own enemies.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:37 am**

Dukasaur wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Oh, please, patches.

The anti-Semite argument would apply if I didn't oppose all religions, all theocratic states, all violations of international law, all violations of contractual property rights, all racism, etc. I don't single out the Jews in these regards at all.

I mean, you know much better than this.

You oppose all theocratic states, but you don't seem to mind the Jihadists' desire to push Israel back into the sea and replace it with another theocratic Islamic dictatorship! What a two-faced joke!

Fatah is a secular, non-Islamist political party that has both Christian and Muslim members, and - at some points in the past - even a few Jewish members. Hamas - a religious party - was only founded because, after the 1967 war, Israel put all secular Palestinian politicians in Gaza into concentration camps and then lifted the Egyptian ban on Islamic parties that Nasser had imposed. Now, Hamas is the legitimate Palestinian representative and we have to accept it. The fact that the legitimate Palestinian representative is an Islamist party is Israel's problem. Israel made its own bed and now it has to lay in it. See -->

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas.

http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PU ... 11847.html

The long history of bumbling incompetence, buffoonery and amateurism of Israeli military has been redeemed by a great PR program, the cooperation of the Hollywood action film industry and the fact that the armies of all Israel's neighbors are just glorified police departments. Israel couldn't fight its way out of a paper bag. Fortunately for it, the Arab states don't have paper bag technology.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:45 am**

Dukasaur wrote:
GreecePwns wrote:Oh, please, patches.

The anti-Semite argument would apply if I didn't oppose all religions, all theocratic states, all violations of international law, all violations of contractual property rights, all racism, etc. I don't single out the Jews in these regards at all.

I mean, you know much better than this.

You oppose all theocratic states, but you don't seem to mind the Jihadists' desire to push Israel back into the sea and replace it with another theocratic Islamic dictatorship! What a two-faced joke!

Nuance. Do you have it?

My endorsement of their tactics toward the Israeli occupation is not an endorsement of their domestic policy, which of course pales in comparison in importance to the #1 issue on the minds of the Palestinians for the last 60+ years: their statehood. Who cares about their domestic policy right now when their very existence is at stake?

And in fact Saxi is right about Israel egging on Hamas. In fact, Fatah has done absolutely nothing to help the Palestinians with its negotiation-friendly tactics. Hamas' active resistance is what will hopefully lead an ending of the Gaza's decades long prison-like conditions, while the West Bank has been essentially been taken over by Israel's "settlement policy" (a euphemism for the forcing of Palestinians out of their homes and handing the deed to the first Jew who wishes to move in). It's clear Hamas' tactics are more effective in reversing the atrocities the Zionists have committed.

Which is definitely more important currently than their domestic policy right now. We can talk about that once they actually have a state.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:59 am**

GreecePwns wrote:Oh, please, patches.

The anti-Semite argument would apply if I didn't oppose all religions, all theocratic states, all violations of international law, all violations of contractual property rights, all racism, etc. I don't single out the Jews in these regards at all.

I mean, you know much better than this.

Oh, my fault, please accept my apology. You can understand my confusion since your anti-zionist rant could have been copy pasted straight from Mein Kampf and sound like the delusions of a psychopath.

If only, if only the Palestinians had an example to follow of how to win a nation of their own against a superior military might without having to resort to relying on totalitarian methods to achieve that end. If only....

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:07 am**

How is the rejection of the tenets a religion psychopathic? It's called atheism. Look it up. In fact, a religious group calling themselves separate from the rest of humanity, calling the rest of the world second-class people made to serve them, and calling themselves destined to control a certain portion of land because they did once thousands of years ago are delusional. So are pretty much all other religious groups, but I didn't talk about them since that's irrelevant to the topic. An anti-Semite would have put Jews below the rest of society, while my posts are about putting them equal to the rest of society.

And unfortunately, they did try passive resistance. They've tried to negotiate and seek the support of international bodies for decades. Ever heard of Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas? That's who's been in power in the West Bank. Guess what's happened to Palestinian control of the West Bank as a result of their passive resistance? It's dwindling to nothing, as Israelis continue to seize land illegally and building walls around the Jewish community, keeping Arabs out of their own land.

Click image to enlarge.

When over ~100 out of 120 Knesset seats are held by militant uncompromising Zionist parties (to different extents), how does negotiation-friendly Palestine help?

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:30 am**

GreecePwns wrote:You, my friend, are in the religious Zionist camp I described above, the camp that has ruled the Zionist movement since that 1903 debate.

Unfortunately, international law and property rights of the Palestinians cannot be overridden by the claims of a people based on a book of fairy tales they follow from millennia ago. Sorry, but that's not how the secular and rational world works.

Again I must delete so much from your quote Because it just goes above and beyond.

My whole comment (in the first page) was to show that a people can and will lose identity if and when relocated to another region. Sure I took opportunity there to cover Bible Prophecy but it can not be denied. Things are happening just as prophesied. But that is besides the point.

But you state that the Secular and Rational world does not work like this by taking land and or spoils from others. But that is exactly how the Secular and rational world works.

The US. goes to war over Oil. Oh sure we say that we are looking for Terrorist or Weapons of Mass Destruction, But the truth is we are in the Middle East because that's where the oil is and we will never leave that region of the world until all the Oil is exhausted from the Middle East. Then we will tap into our own enormous supplies in Alaska. That is how the Secular and Rational world works. And the world looks the other way.

If there was nothing of value to fight for then the world would be at peace. But land is the source of all wealth. And he who has more land has more wealth. And nations will continue to fight over land and the control of it's wealth Despite international laws and property rights. That's the whole point in war. Someone's rights are being violated somewhere. If we do it then why should not Israel? That does not make it right but it simply is the way the world works.

The excuse that is used is just that, an excuse because no one wants to be the bad guy or perceived as such. But everyone is the bad guy. Israel is doing nothing different than say the US. They are just using a different "pray" book. Pardon the pun. But to not allow Israel to play it out is to condemn a race to extinction. And if the Jews are not in Israel, then they are nowhere.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:41 am**

This is the thing, GP, when Hamas shoots rockets and Israel drops bombs, we've got two willing participants in insanity. Choosing one side over the other just equals choosing one insanity over another.

If, however, you've got systemic murdering of people who are participating in non violent resistance, over time that takes a toll on the one doing the killing until the point arrives where it becomes apparent that the one doing the killing is certainly in the wrong.

As it stands now, both sides are killing, and there is no way one can deny that.

Will the non violent way result in death and misery? Absolutely. But as we can see, there is no getting around that regardless.
Will the non violent way succeed quickly? Absolutely not. In fact, it takes more courage and fortitude to maintain that path than it does fighting it out.

The Jallianwala Bagh massacre is a great example of how to win a battle but lose the war if you are the occupying force. One single incident of British troops gunning down unarmed people is what finally made the British stop and think and was the catalyst that eventually lead to an independent India. Though that result would take another thirty years or so.

Such a line takes a generation to accomplish, at minimum. And it's not an easy road, to be sure, but look at the road the Palestinians are on now, is it any easier?

Focusing on the nutty religious is irrelevant. When the Palestinian leadership comes out with statement such as "We love death more than you love life", it pretty much shines a light on how crazy both sides are.

The Palestinians aren't getting any points of sympathy when they elect Hamas to govern them. And that's where victory lies for them, by actually making is completely obvious, with no doubt what so ever, that Israel is in the wrong.
As it stands now, that's not so apparent.
You may think it is, and blame Zionism as the cause why it's not so apparent to everyone else as it seems to be with you, but that's where your mistake is. Thinking everyone else is going to think like you.

Posted: **Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:55 am**

Viceroy63 wrote:My whole comment was to show that a people can and will lose identity if and when relocated to another region. Sure I took opportunity there to cover Bible Prophecy but it can not be denied. Things are happening just as prophesied. But that is besides the point.

Actually, it was your main point. And it still sounds ridiculous and delusional to anyone who isn't a Christian or a Jew. Sorry, your religious beliefs have no place in deciding the legitimacy of the seizing of legally owned property and imprisonment of people deemed not your kind.

But you state that the Secular and Rational world does not work like this by taking land and or spoils from others. But that is exactly how the Secular and rational world works.

The US. goes to war over Oil. Oh sure we say that we are looking for Terrorist or Weapons of Mass Destruction, But the truth is we are in the Middle East because that's where the oil is and we will never leave that region of the world until all the Oil is exhausted from the Middle East. Then we will tap into our own enormous supplies in Alaska. That is how the Secular and Rational world works. And the world looks the other way.

If there was nothing of value to fight for then the world would be at peace. But land is the source of all wealth. And he who has more land has more wealth. And nations will continue to fight over land and the control of it's wealth Despite international laws and property rights. If we do it then why should not Israel? That does not make it right but it simply is the way the world works.

Of course, the American population and other smaller countries' governments sit idly by and accepts the illegitimate actions of the US government in exchange for a bag of candies and a wad of cash. That doesn't mean everyone else does and nor should they.

Conquer Club

Was it right to repopulate Israel with Jews?

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