Conquer Club

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watched a current affairs program called dispatches ch 4 in the uk the other week,A victim of child sex abuse in one of Britain's religious communities goes undercover to expose the way his community has for decades been dealing with paedophilia. was the jewish community in london(i think),scary stuff,just wouldnt do anything about it

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/disp ... /episode-1

Bleh, I've been loosely involved in the second two groups at some point or other my life and I feel that as a whole they don't support child molestation. I also think that using the word "support" is leading and dishonest with these two and I don't understand why anyone who it in regard to this subject unless they feel they have a weak argument.
I was a boyscout, still support them and I can also say that whenever any individual is guilty of child molestation, from any group, I would probably enjoy beating them to death with my fists so what explains this contradiction?

was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in,unfortunately these beasts are always going to get involved were our children are,but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time,and as a father myself,i think neutering is the way forward for these sick pricks

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bedub1 wrote:

gordon1975 wrote:was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in, {...} but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time.

I've obviously shortened your quote. I agree 100%. I was also a scout. Lets review some of what it means to be a scout:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I consider the actions of the leaders of the organization to be worse then those of the molesters. These trusted men and women were not helping this children, nor were they remainig morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

Did they live up to these requirements? I think part of the problem is that your first duty is to god and country, so the church, the scouting organization, and their god come before the abused. Then there is your duty to other people, and then is the duty to self to remain moral.

The response of the leaders of these organizations, their blatant failures should lead to not only to their expulsion from the organizations, but their arrest and trial. I would imprison any that were all the way from willfully ignorant to active participant. Only a person that was unwillingly ignorant should be free to continue on the ways of the organizations.

the leaders were doing the right thing by the organisations they represented. they were born in an era where these things were not spoken of or admitted to happen by anyone - domestc abuse, incest were treated the same way, which is to say ignored/covered up/looked the other way.

pushing our 'enlightened' views on actions of the past and judging them for dealing with situations in the same manner that generations before them had handled it is wrong.

greenoaks wrote:

bedub1 wrote:

gordon1975 wrote:was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in, {...} but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time.

I've obviously shortened your quote. I agree 100%. I was also a scout. Lets review some of what it means to be a scout:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I consider the actions of the leaders of the organization to be worse then those of the molesters. These trusted men and women were not helping this children, nor were they remainig morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

Did they live up to these requirements? I think part of the problem is that your first duty is to god and country, so the church, the scouting organization, and their god come before the abused. Then there is your duty to other people, and then is the duty to self to remain moral.

The response of the leaders of these organizations, their blatant failures should lead to not only to their expulsion from the organizations, but their arrest and trial. I would imprison any that were all the way from willfully ignorant to active participant. Only a person that was unwillingly ignorant should be free to continue on the ways of the organizations.

the leaders were doing the right thing by the organisations they represented. they were born in an era where these things were not spoken of or admitted to happen by anyone - domestc abuse, incest were treated the same way, which is to say ignored/covered up/looked the other way.

pushing our 'enlightened' views on actions of the past and judging them for dealing with situations in the same manner that generations before them had handled it is wrong.

How recent does this abuse have to be before we can legitimately criticise the perpetrators and call for their punishment?

chang50 wrote:

greenoaks wrote:

bedub1 wrote:

gordon1975 wrote:was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in, {...} but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time.

I've obviously shortened your quote. I agree 100%. I was also a scout. Lets review some of what it means to be a scout:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I consider the actions of the leaders of the organization to be worse then those of the molesters. These trusted men and women were not helping this children, nor were they remainig morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

Did they live up to these requirements? I think part of the problem is that your first duty is to god and country, so the church, the scouting organization, and their god come before the abused. Then there is your duty to other people, and then is the duty to self to remain moral.

The response of the leaders of these organizations, their blatant failures should lead to not only to their expulsion from the organizations, but their arrest and trial. I would imprison any that were all the way from willfully ignorant to active participant. Only a person that was unwillingly ignorant should be free to continue on the ways of the organizations.

the leaders were doing the right thing by the organisations they represented. they were born in an era where these things were not spoken of or admitted to happen by anyone - domestc abuse, incest were treated the same way, which is to say ignored/covered up/looked the other way.

pushing our 'enlightened' views on actions of the past and judging them for dealing with situations in the same manner that generations before them had handled it is wrong.

How recent does this abuse have to be before we can legitimately criticise the perpetrators and call for their punishment?

in the Uk people are just being arrested now,with the jimmy saville inquiry ,and that all happened from the 70,s up to the present day,quite rightly so

gordon1975 wrote:

chang50 wrote:

greenoaks wrote:

bedub1 wrote:

gordon1975 wrote:was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in, {...} but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time.

I've obviously shortened your quote. I agree 100%. I was also a scout. Lets review some of what it means to be a scout:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I consider the actions of the leaders of the organization to be worse then those of the molesters. These trusted men and women were not helping this children, nor were they remainig morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

Did they live up to these requirements? I think part of the problem is that your first duty is to god and country, so the church, the scouting organization, and their god come before the abused. Then there is your duty to other people, and then is the duty to self to remain moral.

The response of the leaders of these organizations, their blatant failures should lead to not only to their expulsion from the organizations, but their arrest and trial. I would imprison any that were all the way from willfully ignorant to active participant. Only a person that was unwillingly ignorant should be free to continue on the ways of the organizations.

the leaders were doing the right thing by the organisations they represented. they were born in an era where these things were not spoken of or admitted to happen by anyone - domestc abuse, incest were treated the same way, which is to say ignored/covered up/looked the other way.

pushing our 'enlightened' views on actions of the past and judging them for dealing with situations in the same manner that generations before them had handled it is wrong.

How recent does this abuse have to be before we can legitimately criticise the perpetrators and call for their punishment?

in the Uk people are just being arrested now,with the jimmy saville inquiry ,and that all happened from the 70,s up to the present day,quite rightly so

Indeed and there is lots more to come out yet I reckon...always makes me laugh when people talk about the 'good old days;'

it really is the tip of the iceberg

gordon1975 wrote:

chang50 wrote:

greenoaks wrote:

bedub1 wrote:

gordon1975 wrote:was a boyscout myself and still believe there a great thing for kids to get involved in, {...} but the covering up,and putting the organization before the child is an appalling crime ,anyone involved including those who tried to bush it under the rug,should be put in jail for a very long time.

I've obviously shortened your quote. I agree 100%. I was also a scout. Lets review some of what it means to be a scout:

Boy Scout Oath or Promise

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

I consider the actions of the leaders of the organization to be worse then those of the molesters. These trusted men and women were not helping this children, nor were they remainig morally straight.

Note that the Boy Scout Oath has traditionally been considered to have three promises. Those three promises are delineated by the semicolons in the Oath, which divide it into three clauses. The three promises of the Scout Oath are, therefore:

Duty to God and country,
Duty to other people, and
Duty to self

DUTY TO GOD AND COUNTRY: Your family and religious leaders teach you to know and serve God. By following these teachings, you do your duty to God.

Men and women of the past worked to make America great, and many gave their lives for their country. By being a good family member and a good citizen, by working for your country's good and obeying its laws, you do your duty to your country. Obeying the Scout Law means living by its 12 points.

DUTY TO OTHER PEOPLE: Many people need help. A cheery smile and a helping hand make life easier for others. By doing a Good Turn daily and helping when you're needed, you prove yourself a Scout and do your part to make this a better world.

DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character.

Did they live up to these requirements? I think part of the problem is that your first duty is to god and country, so the church, the scouting organization, and their god come before the abused. Then there is your duty to other people, and then is the duty to self to remain moral.

The response of the leaders of these organizations, their blatant failures should lead to not only to their expulsion from the organizations, but their arrest and trial. I would imprison any that were all the way from willfully ignorant to active participant. Only a person that was unwillingly ignorant should be free to continue on the ways of the organizations.

the leaders were doing the right thing by the organisations they represented. they were born in an era where these things were not spoken of or admitted to happen by anyone - domestc abuse, incest were treated the same way, which is to say ignored/covered up/looked the other way.

pushing our 'enlightened' views on actions of the past and judging them for dealing with situations in the same manner that generations before them had handled it is wrong.

How recent does this abuse have to be before we can legitimately criticise the perpetrators and call for their punishment?

in the Uk people are just being arrested now,with the jimmy saville inquiry ,and that all happened from the 70,s up to the present day,quite rightly so

not at all, we have had royal commissions in this country that have found those you are so quick to blame for looking the other way were indoctrinated to do so by there elders/peers. no charges were laid.

it is all about context. we do not abuse every egyptian we meet because their pyramids were built by slaves. lets not start now abusing those of previous generations because their morals do not match ours.

gordon1975 wrote:it really is the tip of the iceberg

Just the tip?

[YouTube]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ckfBGdZoR_0[/YouTube]

bedub1 wrote:How many groups support child molesters? I'll start making the list:

NAMBLA
Catholic Church
Boyscouts

Given how much the Catholic Church and the boyscouts hate gays, and how much they claim to hate child molesters, it's funny to see them defending them and protecting them. It's okay to be a gay child molester as long as you are also a priest or scout leader.

I think gays like adults of the same sex...not children.

Pedophiles would be the proper term, I think.

I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

thegreekdog wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

I'd like to reword that but basically agree.

bedub1 wrote:How many groups support child molesters? I'll start making the list:

NAMBLA
Catholic Church
Boyscouts

Given how much the Catholic Church and the boyscouts hate gays, and how much they claim to hate child molesters, it's funny to see them defending them and protecting them. It's okay to be a gay child molester as long as you are also a priest or scout leader.

Uh, this requires a LOT of explanation.

Why do you seem to think child molesters and homosexuals are the same?

Also, while both groups have been accused of harboring child molesters, I believe that the Boy Scout incidents are fairly isolated and limited to specific areas where, well, jerks were in charge. (I could use harsher words, but am keeping this short and "polite"). The Roman Catholic issues are more a matter of a pervasive culture of lack of understanding about the significance and harm perpetrated by molesters.

I believe the issues with homosexuality in BOTH cases is solely about intolerance, not "harboring"... as if just being gay were something harmful anyway.

thegreekdog wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

nice sig

there is a difference between working hard and being successful.

I can't support the Boy Scouts, they discriminate against Homosexuals and Atheists. I'd like to see them lose their preferred and tax-exempted status until and unless they stop discriminating against minorities. We wouldn't let the KKK rent a high school room for $1 a month, would we?

thegreekdog wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

The suggestion is (please tell me if I'm wrong) that the molestation was of same-sex minors. Thus, both gay and paedophilic.

jonesthecurl wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

The suggestion is (please tell me if I'm wrong) that the molestation was of same-sex minors. Thus, both gay and paedophilic.

weren't the molesters straight ?

greenoaks wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:

thegreekdog wrote:

CreepersWiener wrote:I believe it to be unfair to associate gays and pedophiles. They are not the same.

I was coming in here to post much the same thing. Maybe bedub can explain why he thinks that gays and pedophiles are similar.

The suggestion is (please tell me if I'm wrong) that the molestation was of same-sex minors. Thus, both gay and paedophilic.

weren't the molesters straight ?

Maybe, maybe not. But not all peados who like little boys, like men. Some are very happily married.

Juan_Bottom wrote:I can't support the Boy Scouts, they discriminate against Homosexuals and Atheists. I'd like to see them lose their preferred and tax-exempted status until and unless they stop discriminating against minorities. We wouldn't let the KKK rent a high school room for $1 a month, would we?

In many areas they no longer do.

The semi irony is that in abiility to meet in schools and such is one reason churches have opened their doors again.

I am somewhat torn on this one. That is, as a private organization, scouts has the right to make its own decisions -- whether they agree with my personal beliefs or not. On the other hand, I do think the boy scouts (the girl scouts, I believe, have a different position) are bigoted.

The problem is that if the scouts puts forward a position of openly accepting gays, for example, then they will truly be going against what a lot of people believe and want for their kids and it may well mean the end of scouting, at a time when there just are not a lot of alternative organizations. I think the change needs to come, but if it happens before groups are ready, it will basically kill scouting. I would like to see more discussion and debate, more teaching, etc. This is very different from the marriage debate, because scouting is about raising and teaching boys. It very much does involve having other people accept values they dislike. For my part, I see no more problem than in accepting, say, Buddhists or Hindus. ... and certainly think they ought to accept atheists, except that it unfortunately became something of an "easy out" for some requirements. That is, there is a big difference between someone actively and truly choosing atheism and someone just being too lazy to go talk to their local priest and do the church requirements for a particular badge.

The girl scouts accept everyone, no questions asked. They even accept boys. Quite honorable I think, ladys. Women lead the way.

The boy scouts never discriminated either, until the organization was bought by the Mormon Church.

I agree with you that as a private organization they should be allowed to do whatever they like. But so long as they are a bigoted organization, they should pay full taxes and not be allowed to use government property without paying for it.

But, individual dens aren't run by the local Mormon Church as yet; they're run by their den leaders. So there are some den's that openly welcome gays and atheists. That's the one redeeming part of this story; individual's love.