Should prison labor be illegal?

[Juan_Bottom]

Many retailers use the Prison Industries Act to contract with businesses who supply them with products that were made by prisoners. JC Penney, Wal*Mart, Victoria Secret, and other's have all used this law to increase their profits, yet these prisoners make between $.23 to $4.75 an hour.
Arizona is infamous for it's liberal use of Chain Gangs. And today I've learned that the Federal Government uses prison labor to assemble electronic components for Patriot 3 missiles, and other missile systems. A short google will lead you to find that a substantial amount of our military hardware does in fact come from prison labor, including every single helmet.

We have 2.3 million people locked up, more than any country in the world, with the state of Louisiana being the world's prison capital. While our nation has 5% of the world's entire population, we also have 24% of the word's prison population. And 16% of our prison detainees suffer from mental illness. Are we locking more people up, for longer periods of time, just to make money? And is this not a violation of the 13th Amendment?



*Yes this is supposed to be full of gaps

[nietzsche]

What do you propose should be done?

Can you workout a full plan to solve this?

Or are you just angry at everything and want to exclaim "INJUSTICE!! INJUSTICE!!, this world I've been born into is not worthy of me!!" ?

[Juan_Bottom]

In Illinois we banned private for-profit prisons. (that's a start)

Then I would propose major changes to the length of time people can go to prison. (For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

All prison labor must be voluntary and cannot compete with private industry. (You can't use minimum-wage earning prisoners to bust unions.)

End long prison sentences for non-violent offenders.

End prison sentences for drug users.

Legalize pot.

[nietzsche]

How did it feel to write in the positive, creative side?

Does it feel better to analyze and try to figure out solutions or does it feel better to rant and point all the unfairness of the world?

When did you feel more empowered?

[nietzsche]

1. In Illinois we banned private for-profit prisons. (that's a start) [/qoute]

2. Then I would propose major changes to the length of time people can go to prison. (For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

3. All prison labor must be voluntary and cannot compete with private industry. (You can't use minimum-wage earning prisoners to bust unions.)

4. End long prison sentences for non-violent offenders.

5. End prison sentences for drug users.

6.Legalize pot.

I agree with you in points 1 and 6.

In point 5, I'm not so sure, although you can said that the "petty crimes" junkies commit are normally not a big deal, added up they make people feel insecure about their property.

The other points I'm not educated enough to comment on.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hmm... the problem of increasing incarnation rates has been around before these for-profit schemes became effective (for businesses, mind you). The government has been for awhile profiting from this kind of labor to produce goods through their own organizations (e.g. license plates). I'm pretty sure there's strict laws (a) against prisoner's producing their own goods and selling them on the market, and I'm definitely sure that (b) there's strict price controls on their products and their wages.

Gee, apparently, a huge source of the problem are those laws... (among other laws).

More people need to focus on the actions of government in order to understand:

1. Why is the incarceration rate so high?
2. How did the (private sector) for-profit prisons come about?---(not to be confused with the government's for-profit prisons)
3. Why are prisoners being treated like crap? (see: price controls, 'slave' labor forced by government, lack of more effective means in rehabilitation)

[kentington]

Hmm... the problem of increasing incarnation rates has been around before these for-profit schemes became effective (for businesses, mind you).

Do you have any examples of this? I haven't notice any deities hiding, but I am not an expert.

1. Incarceration rates are high for a lot of reasons.
a) quotas
b) obscure laws, meaning even if you are trying to follow the laws there is always a catch all they can get you on if they want.
c) numbers, it makes people look good and justifies their jobs
Many more reasons I am sure.

2. I don't know anything about that

3. In a lot of ways prisoners are getting a better quality of life than some of us. Health and dental. Cable. Education.
We pay for all of this, should they not do something to contribute to these fees? I don't think anyone should be making a profit but I am sure there is way this can be worked out.

[_sabotage_]

Prison's are a way of directing tax dollars towards streams that empower the government and leave the population in a state of fear.

Recidivism rate for prisoners who receive an education, 10%. For prisoners who are not allowed education, 90%. From a book, would you rather find yourself on a bus facing a guy who spent a few years pissed off with no opportunity, or one who read books and has a job?

We continue to spend roughly $75k a year to imprison a person in a way that will increase the need for prisons, instead of spending much less to pursue a better result. The evidence is clear and yet we just keep doing it. This is not incompetence, this is a clear cut path that the government has carved for society.

[Lootifer]

I think BBSs' first point is the most important. You need to ask why incarceration rate so high.

There is nothing inherently wrong with making prisoners work (thou ideally they would be producing social goods) imo; but there is something very very wrong with putting people in jail just so you can get cheap labour. Bit of a chicken or the egg situation here I think, which can only be unravelled if we work out why incarceration rates are so high.

[_sabotage_]

Why do we not attack the root of crime, social inequality? Why did the CIA introduce crack to the American public? Why do we continue to make things illegal which could be better dealt with legally? Are these practices restricted to our own population, or do we spread them internationally?

I went to buy some books for a friend of mine in prison, the clerk asked me if they were for me and I said no, they're for an inmate. He complained that he had his student loan to deal with and this guy is getting free books. Stop being such assholes and we can have a better society that isn't so easily manipulated.

[BigBallinStalin]

Hmm... the problem of increasing incarnation rates has been around before these for-profit schemes became effective (for businesses, mind you).

Do you have any examples of this? I haven't notice any deities hiding, but I am not an expert.

I recall reading from a government site (I think) that the current (2010?) percentage of private prisons are 24% of all prisons in the US. But did that figure include "immigration prisons," which hold non-US citizens temporarily before deporting them? (I'm not sure. If so, then that would make the comparison murkier).


Here's some stylized facts of crime and punishment (some of its international stuff, for comparison purposes).

Walmsley, Roy (2009). World Prison Population List, 8th Edition, London: International Centre for Prison Studies.
The Economist (2010). "Rough Justice: America locks up too many people, some for acts that should not even be criminal," July 22.
Higgs, R. (1999). "Etceteras... Lock 'em Up!," Independent Review. 4(2): 309-13.
Lott, J., Loury, G. Wilson, J., Western, B. (2009). "Behind Bars in the Land of the Free," Cato Unbound. March.
West, H., and Sabol, W. (2010). "Prisoners in 2009," Bulletin. Washington, DC: Bureau of Justice Statistics.
Liptak, Adam (2008). "U.S. prison population dwarfs that of other nations," The New York Times. April 23.

[stahrgazer]

I recall reading from a government site (I think) that the current (2010?) percentage of private prisons are 24% of all prisons in the US. But did that figure include "immigration prisons," which hold non-US citizens temporarily before deporting them? (I'm not sure. If so, then that would make the comparison murkier).

Since immigration prisons are basically federals reserving inmate space in existing prisons, it probably doesn't make the comparison murkier.

That said, the fact that many prisons are "private" doesn't really matter, either, because privatizing prisons is usually done to lower the costs of guarding those prisons (contracting the prison guards out, to get municipalities out of the government pay and benefits costs.)

I don't agree with all the laws we have. Someone merely possessing pot, for example... who cares? Someone making meth gets a littler harder to justify, because of the potentially explosive nature of that production method endangering those in the neighborhood around them. Yet, someone possessing some pot could go into prison for the same felony offense (depending on quantity, which doesn't have to be bales, can be as little as an ounce) that someone with a meth lab faces.

But, once convicted, those folks lose all rights. I'd rather "prisoners" have to work for their keep, I'd rather they not be given cable tv, I'd rather the municipality benefit from prison work so taxpayers don't have to put up the total costs because those folks chose to do crimes. I'd rather they not be given the healthcare they're given, considering the average taxpayer isn't given healthcare.

See, it's a very sad society when "prisoners" have it easier than "citizens."

And because they do have it easier, some do what they can to return to prison.

Last year, in Florida, there was a guy who held up a bank for a dollar because he needed an operation and if he were in jail, he'd get that operation.

[tzor]

In Illinois we banned private for-profit prisons.

Everything is banned in Illinois.

[thegreekdog]

Are we locking more people up, for longer periods of time, just to make money?

Maybe. I think we lock more people up because we live in a society that is less concerned about civil liberties as time goes on. You obviously don't believe civil liberties are concerning given that your thoughts on civil liberties may change depending on who the president is.

And is this not a violation of the 13th Amendment?

No, since they are paid. I think we can look to other parts of the Constitution for our challenge to this particular phenomenon (e.g. "cruel and unusual punishment"). I suspect any challenge to prisoners working would include the 13th Amendment, if only for show. Suffice it to say, I do not think prisoners should be put to work.

[/]

I am okay with forced prisoner labor as long as it is balanced. The prisoners should not be incentivized to go to prison, and the individuals who run the prison should not be incentivized nor deincentivized to keep prisoners.
If the prison loses money because of too many prisoners, they will be tempted to lower standards, letting them free regardless of rehabilitation in order to cut costs. On the other hand if prisoners make a profit, then the system becomes susceptible to greed.

It should reasonably fall on the prisoners to cover the following expenses in my opinion.
- Their individual upkeep
- Any debts owed
- The cost to repair any property damaged by their crimes
- The (capped) salaries of the facilities' staff and management
- The maintenance and renovation of the prison facility

It should never be about profit, but if they can take care of that much, at least they wouldn't be a burden on society while jailed, and hopefully someday they could learn the lesson of leading a responsible existence from it.

[TA1LGUNN3R]

I'm too lazy to look up stats but I would thing Juan's 5 and 6 would pretty much make this issue obsolete. If the ridiculous punishments for possessing, using, or responsibly selling drugs were nixed I would think the financial problems of current prison models would be vastly simplified.

'Course this would mean a general downsize in the federal funding and police force, so I don't see that happening...

-TG

[tkr4lf]

(For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

It depends on what you're burglarizing (a residence or a commercial property), but it can be as high as 15 years. At least in Texas, burglary of a residence is a 2nd degree felony, which carries a penalty of 2-15 years in prison.

[PLAYER57832]

I have worked with prisoners in doing work for the parks, also fighting fires in CA. I have worn unicorps uniforms, etc.


The problem with prison labor is not so much any inhumanity. Its pretty boring in prison and most prisoners very much like the chance to get out and "do something". In many cases they get to earn a little spending money AND often some skills that translate to real job potential post prison. I don't include the chain gang bit or some of the abusees we saw in Arizona. However, what I saw in CA and even parts of Mississippi was not abusive.
(some caveat there... MIssissippi ahs been known for abuse as well).

The biggest problem is that these prison corporations tend to out-compete free enterprise industries. There used to be much stricter statuatory limits. Prisoners were often used for "public service" type jobs where there just were not the funds for private employees. (thus road work, parks work) When prisoners are used to make uniforms and such, though, they can be seen to be taking away private employment, even if the uniforms are primarily for government employees and thus the savings are passed on to taxpayers.

I would like to see prison employment expanded, for reasons that have to do with prisoners having a better life in prison and after prison (in positive ways.. plant a garden instead of watching TV). One area where I think prisoners could really help is in animal training. There are several programs already. Prisoners can begin the training for seeing eye and "helper" dogs.

I could also see prisoners helping care for the pets of active duty personnel who are deployed. It is plain terrible that so many soldiers feel they have no other option but to send their beloved pets to the humane society or pound. These types of programs help the dog AND the prisoner and fill gaps that outside society cannot do.

Another side is when dealing with youth. In that case, I think putting the kids to work is pretty critical. I would like to see a return to prison farms for youth camps, but controlled with modern sensibilities. That is, I have no problem with telling a teen… work or you don’t eat --- or better yet, pick and cook the food or we all don’t eat, chop that wood or no one is warm tonight, but beating and making them pull weeds in 100 degree heat with no water are NOT OK. It also has to be paired with real education and honest caring. Those are hard mixes to keep, but when done properly you can truly “turn a kid around”.

Anyway, there are 2 standards for this.
1. The work must be reasonable. Hard is great, but not beyond a person’s ability. Any real physical danger should be minimized, just as it is in the open world, even a bit more care since the people don’t have choices.

2.Competition with the private sector should be minimized. I am perfectly OK with any “in house” services… letting prisoners grow their own food, make their own clothing and furniture, even if it is technically competing with outside sources. Using that labor to supply basic needs for the armed services is a bit more dicey, but overall, we need the military and we all pay for the military. As long as people are not being incarcerated specifically so they can work for these corporations, the cost savings to taxpayers is worth the loss felt by private contractors.

[PLAYER57832]

(For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

It depends on what you're burglarizing (a residence or a commercial property), but it can be as high as 15 years. At least in Texas, burglary of a residence is a 2nd degree felony, which carries a penalty of 2-15 years in prison.

The biggest problem is mandatory "three strikes" laws. They turn petty crime into life sentances.

[thegreekdog]

(For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

It depends on what you're burglarizing (a residence or a commercial property), but it can be as high as 15 years. At least in Texas, burglary of a residence is a 2nd degree felony, which carries a penalty of 2-15 years in prison.

The biggest problem is mandatory "three strikes" laws. They turn petty crime into life sentances.

Burglary is not a petty crime. It is an incredibly violent crime, especially when the residents are home. I'm a big proponent and defender of the rights of accused criminals and I don't agree with mandatory minimum sentences or three strikes laws, but I have no problem with burglarly carrying between 2 and 15 years of prison time.

[PLAYER57832]

(For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

It depends on what you're burglarizing (a residence or a commercial property), but it can be as high as 15 years. At least in Texas, burglary of a residence is a 2nd degree felony, which carries a penalty of 2-15 years in prison.

The biggest problem is mandatory "three strikes" laws. They turn petty crime into life sentances.

Burglary is not a petty crime. It is an incredibly violent crime, especially when the residents are home. I'm a big proponent and defender of the rights of accused criminals and I don't agree with mandatory minimum sentences or three strikes laws, but I have no problem with burglarly carrying between 2 and 15 years of prison time.

Sometimes its obvious you work and live with attorneys

It turns lesser crimes into crimes that get punished equal to basic murder or rape. (using "basic" to mean I am omitting the death sentance situations)

[thegreekdog]

(For a first-time Burglary you can get up to 6 years in prison in the US. In Canada it's more like 5 months)

It depends on what you're burglarizing (a residence or a commercial property), but it can be as high as 15 years. At least in Texas, burglary of a residence is a 2nd degree felony, which carries a penalty of 2-15 years in prison.

The biggest problem is mandatory "three strikes" laws. They turn petty crime into life sentances.

Burglary is not a petty crime. It is an incredibly violent crime, especially when the residents are home. I'm a big proponent and defender of the rights of accused criminals and I don't agree with mandatory minimum sentences or three strikes laws, but I have no problem with burglarly carrying between 2 and 15 years of prison time.

Sometimes its obvious you work and live with attorneys

It turns lesser crimes into crimes that get punished equal to basic murder or rape. (using "basic" to mean I am omitting the death sentance situations)

You didn't use "basic," you used "petty." And you used it in response to the term "burglary."

To head this stupid argument off at the pass - do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

[tkr4lf]

do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

It can be. It all depends on the situation. You'd be surprised what can actually be considered burglary. According to an attorney, even if you don't take anything, just gaining entrance to somebody's house, is considered burglary. Even if you use a key. And lock the door behind you when you leave.

I have worked with prisoners in doing work for the parks, also fighting fires in CA. I have worn unicorps uniforms, etc.


The problem with prison labor is not so much any inhumanity. Its pretty boring in prison and most prisoners very much like the chance to get out and "do something". In many cases they get to earn a little spending money AND often some skills that translate to real job potential post prison. I don't include the chain gang bit or some of the abusees we saw in Arizona. However, what I saw in CA and even parts of Mississippi was not abusive.
(some caveat there... MIssissippi ahs been known for abuse as well).

The biggest problem is that these prison corporations tend to out-compete free enterprise industries. There used to be much stricter statuatory limits. Prisoners were often used for "public service" type jobs where there just were not the funds for private employees. (thus road work, parks work) When prisoners are used to make uniforms and such, though, they can be seen to be taking away private employment, even if the uniforms are primarily for government employees and thus the savings are passed on to taxpayers.

I would like to see prison employment expanded, for reasons that have to do with prisoners having a better life in prison and after prison (in positive ways.. plant a garden instead of watching TV). One area where I think prisoners could really help is in animal training. There are several programs already. Prisoners can begin the training for seeing eye and "helper" dogs.

I could also see prisoners helping care for the pets of active duty personnel who are deployed. It is plain terrible that so many soldiers feel they have no other option but to send their beloved pets to the humane society or pound. These types of programs help the dog AND the prisoner and fill gaps that outside society cannot do.

Another side is when dealing with youth. In that case, I think putting the kids to work is pretty critical. I would like to see a return to prison farms for youth camps, but controlled with modern sensibilities. That is, I have no problem with telling a teen… work or you don’t eat --- or better yet, pick and cook the food or we all don’t eat, chop that wood or no one is warm tonight, but beating and making them pull weeds in 100 degree heat with no water are NOT OK. It also has to be paired with real education and honest caring. Those are hard mixes to keep, but when done properly you can truly “turn a kid around”.

Anyway, there are 2 standards for this.
1. The work must be reasonable. Hard is great, but not beyond a person’s ability. Any real physical danger should be minimized, just as it is in the open world, even a bit more care since the people don’t have choices.

2.Competition with the private sector should be minimized. I am perfectly OK with any “in house” services… letting prisoners grow their own food, make their own clothing and furniture, even if it is technically competing with outside sources. Using that labor to supply basic needs for the armed services is a bit more dicey, but overall, we need the military and we all pay for the military. As long as people are not being incarcerated specifically so they can work for these corporations, the cost savings to taxpayers is worth the loss felt by private contractors.

And holy crap, a Player post I agree with. Very reasonable and rational.

[PLAYER57832]

To head this stupid argument off at the pass - do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

OH please, I was mostly poking fun at you.

The answer... it depends. A kid taking a candy bar is pretty petty. A guy taking a pair of gloves is petty, particularly if he took them because he was cold and the people from whom he took them had others, would not themselves be put at risk.


Taking someone's life savings is not at all petty.

Per your actual argument. I think the term "petty" has to do with the amount of harm, more than the "type" per se. I don't consider taking someone's property to be nearly the violation that taking someone's arm might be. And, if you want to get philosophical about it, while not many people would benefit from losing an arm or leg, a LOT of people would truly benefit from finding out they could do without a few possessions.

[thegreekdog]

It can be. It all depends on the situation. You'd be surprised what can actually be considered burglary. According to an attorney, even if you don't take anything, just gaining entrance to somebody's house, is considered burglary. Even if you use a key. And lock the door behind you when you leave.

According to an attorney? I think you mean "according to the law." I actually remember this from my criminal law class because it can be kind of ridiculous. So yeah, burglarly can be a petty crime and can be punished accordingly. But it does not shock me when someone gets 15 years.

Funny sidebar - I took a continuing legal education class yesterday and the one attorney was talking about how the most difficult thing for her to do in her job is to explain to a potential client why he or she doesn't have a sexual harrassment claim. This attorney indicated that her potential clients don't understand that if the law doesn't say the activity is sexual harrassment, the potential client doesn't have a claim.

To head this stupid argument off at the pass - do you believe burglary is a petty crime?

OH please, I was mostly poking fun at you.

The answer... it depends. A kid taking a candy bar is pretty petty. A guy taking a pair of gloves is petty, particularly if he took them because he was cold and the people from whom he took them had others, would not themselves be put at risk.


Taking someone's life savings is not at all petty.

Agreed. See above.