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Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial crisis?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:29 pm
by Symmetry
It's a helluva drug, obviously, but was the massive and widespread abuse of illegal drugs in the financial sector a major factor in the overconfidence and dangerous risk taking that led to the financial crisis?

Did cocaine use by bankers cause the global financial crisis?

An extract:
"Wall Street got drunk" was George W Bush's typically incisive take on the main cause of the emerging financial crisis in July 2008. Two years later the governor of the Bank of England, Mervyn King, explained in his Mansion House speech that "the role of a central bank in monetary policy is to take the punch bowl away just as the party gets going" (something that he admitted had not occurred). But perhaps the wrong intoxicant was being blamed. The controversial former drug tsar David Nutt told the Sunday Times this weekend that cocaine-using bankers with their "culture of excitement and drive and more and more and more ... got us into this terrible mess"

I'm inclined to agree. Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about. Everyone accepts that a credit bubble occurred in the mid-noughties and that it was a direct result of what the former US Federal Reserve chief Alan Greenspan has referred to as "irrational exuberance". It could also be argued that traders would be better able to sell absurdly complicated financial weapons of mass destruction after taking a confidence-boosting narcotic such as cocaine. Furthermore, surely only cocaine-ravaged buffoons would actually buy billions of dollars worth of mortgage-backed securities when they were so clearly doomed to explode the minute the property boom stalled.

I certainly saw my fair share of sniffly noses and gurning jaws at City bars every Thursday night. I also heard overconfident gibberish being spouted by brash wide-boys throughout my 12-year banking career. There were also lots of stories about some of the big swingers in New York enjoying a line or 10 of an evening. Bernie Madoff's office was apparently known as "the North Pole" such were the gargantuan quantities of "snow" to be found there and most bankers are aware of the published allegations that Jimmy Cayne (former CEO of Bear Stearns) had an anti-acid medication bottle that was filled with cocaine.

Dr Chris Luke, an A&E specialist based at Cork University Hospital, Ireland, who has studied the effects of cocaine on bankers, has stated that "prominent figures in financial and political circles made irrational decisions as a result of megalomania brought on by cocaine usage". He concludes that "people were making insane decisions and thinking they were 110% right … which led to the current chaos."

Greed, selfishness, ignorance and ruthlessness also played their part, of course, but I think it would be foolish not to see the role that the drug played in creating the bubble. Herd mentality, which thrives during times of uncertainty, is certainly much more explicable when you factor in the trembling insecurity and depleted discernment that go hand in hand with a coke habit.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:01 pm
by thegreekdog
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocaine users.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:04 pm
by Symmetry
thegreekdog wrote:
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocain users.


I'm almost convinced, but do you mean cocaine?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:04 pm
by thegreekdog
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocain users.


I'm almost convinced, but do you mean cocaine?


Yes. Fixed in original.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:06 pm
by Symmetry
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocain users.


I'm almost convinced, but do you mean cocaine?


Yes. Fixed in original.


I can forgive your over-exuberance.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:09 pm
by thegreekdog
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocain users.


I'm almost convinced, but do you mean cocaine?


Yes. Fixed in original.


I can forgive your over-exuberance.


I'm addicted to legal drugs... like caffeine. That explains my over-exuberance (and spelling errors).

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:22 pm
by Symmetry
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
thegreekdog wrote:
Cocaine is (I'm reliably informed) a drug that results in intense bouts of over-exuberance as well as a tendency to talk extremely convincingly about stuff you know nothing about.


A lot of CC forumgoers are cocain users.


I'm almost convinced, but do you mean cocaine?


Yes. Fixed in original.


I can forgive your over-exuberance.


I'm addicted to legal drugs... like caffeine. That explains my over-exuberance (and spelling errors).


Fair enough, anyway, what's your take on the topic?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:40 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Too much chocolate.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:41 pm
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:Too much c


Yup

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:46 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Too much caffeine


Yup


ur wright!

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:52 pm
by Symmetry
BBS, you generally claim to be an economist, do any economic theorists talk about this kind of drug abuse and the effects it might have on high level decision making?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:04 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Not really familiar with the literature, although when going for causal explanations, it helps to make relevant comparisons (e.g. cross-country analysis), controlling for other substances/neurotransmitters (e.g. caffeine, endorphins, vitamin B consumption, etc.)*, and then address the rules of the game within which the individuals operate (completely lacking ITT).

    Another fun comparison would be to examine the decision-making of soldiers who are deprived of sleep and/or are under various supplements to stay awake. Have a control group, and compare the benefits and costs. And then compare the results with cocaine-using bankers.

Really it's about the government subsidizing risk and inducing banks to make more loans to less credit-worthy borrowers (that would be the institutional/systemic problem). Much of this is a systemic problem involving the FDIC, the Federal Reserve System, the SEC, Dept. of Justice, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac, and the cozy relationship between politicians and banking associations/lobbying groups. Worrying about the suggested effects of x-amount of cocaine users really doesn't address the fundamental problems, through which new legislation and regulation is being crafted (think it'll work? Nope.)

There's also a problem with examining a few individual bankers while removing them from their web of social interactions (e.g. the boss/company/government which allows X to happen, or keeps them under tight rein). Lab studies hardly mimic real life.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:15 pm
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:Not really familiar with the literature, although when going for causal explanations, it helps to make relevant comparisons (e.g. cross-country analysis), controlling for other substances/neurotransmitters (e.g. caffeine, endorphins, vitamin B consumption, etc.)*, and then address the rules of the game within which the individuals operate (completely lacking ITT).


So, is that a "no", or an "I don't know"?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:21 pm
by Phatscotty
cocaine, sure. I'm guessing greed and stupid peeps tho was the cause, with plenty of blame left for government trying too hard to over-spread the wealth

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:29 pm
by Symmetry
Phatscotty wrote:cocaine, sure. I'm guessing greed and stupid peeps tho was the cause, with plenty of blame left for government trying to spread the wealth a little too much


Scotty, you've advocated before for welfare recipients to have mandatory drug tests. Do you think something similar should be in place for businesses "too big to fail"? I know you were no fan of the bailouts after all.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:31 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Not really familiar with the literature, although when going for causal explanations, it helps to make relevant comparisons (e.g. cross-country analysis), controlling for other substances/neurotransmitters (e.g. caffeine, endorphins, vitamin B consumption, etc.)*, and then address the rules of the game within which the individuals operate (completely lacking ITT).


So, is that a "no", or an "I don't know"?


I laid out the general framework in the rest of the post, so good luck reading.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:36 pm
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Not really familiar with the literature, although when going for causal explanations, it helps to make relevant comparisons (e.g. cross-country analysis), controlling for other substances/neurotransmitters (e.g. caffeine, endorphins, vitamin B consumption, etc.)*, and then address the rules of the game within which the individuals operate (completely lacking ITT).


So, is that a "no", or an "I don't know"?


I laid out the general framework in the rest of the post, so good luck reading.


I can honestly say I read all of the work by all of the theorists you suggested in answer to my original question. It took no time at all.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 pm
by daddy1gringo
Another way to look at it is that it's a chicken-or-egg kind of thing. It seems the culprit is the whole culture of greed, risk-taking-adrenaline, disconnection with reality, testosterone, and of course, cocaine. The drug use and the attitudes fuel each other, and all of it is to blame. So it's kind of "yes and no".

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:51 pm
by Symmetry
daddy1gringo wrote:Another way to look at it is that it's a chicken-or-egg kind of thing. It seems the culprit is the whole culture of greed, risk-taking-adrenaline, disconnection with reality, testosterone, and of course, cocaine. The drug use and the attitudes fuel each other, and all of it is to blame. So it's kind of "yes and no".


I sort of agree when it comes to the basis, but addiction fuels itself when there's nobody to say no.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:09 am
by BigBallinStalin
Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:22 am
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:25 am
by BigBallinStalin
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?


Just as I suspected.

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:27 am
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?


Just as I suspected.


You were called on your bullshit and now want to bury it?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:37 am
by BigBallinStalin
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?


Just as I suspected.


You were called on your bullshit and now want to bury it?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?

Re: Was cocaine use by bankers a cause of the financial cris

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:45 am
by Symmetry
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:
Symmetry wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Does anyone here smell the stale copy-pasta?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?


Just as I suspected.


You were called on your bullshit and now want to bury it?


I'm sorry dude, what do you mean?


Let's discuss the OP, as this conversation went into a dead end quickly, assuming that wasn't your intent.