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This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:41 pm
by BigBallinStalin






Law, Property Rights, and Air Pollution by Murray Rothbard


History on Coal in the US: How it was handled, and how it got distorted. A short summary:

A PRO-ENERGY PRESIDENT

As President, Ron Paul will lead the fight to:

Remove restrictions on drilling, so companies can tap into the vast amount of oil we have here at home.
Repeal the federal tax on gasoline. Eliminating the federal gas tax would result in an 18 cents savings per gallon for American consumers.
Lift government roadblocks to the use of coal and nuclear power.
Eliminate the ineffective EPA. Polluters should answer directly to property owners in court for the damages they create – not to Washington.
Make tax credits available for the purchase and production of alternative fuel technologies.
It’s time for a President that recognizes the free market’s power and innovative spirit by unleashing its full potential to produce affordable, environmentally sound, and reliable energy.

This all sounds pretty good to me. My only "complaint" is that Congressman Paul does not call for the imprisonment of those responsible for creating the unconstitutional and thus illegal EPA in the first place (they don’t call me Walter "Moderate" Block for nothing), but I’ll let that lacunae slip. You can’t have everything. Dr. Paul is, after all, a politician, and what can you expect from such people? That’s why I give him only a 97% libertarian rating.

In contrast to me, Farber is aghast, aghast I tell you. He is appalled that there should be any such thing as free market environmentalism (for the best publication on this subject ever written, the one that informs my own views on these matters, see here). Ecological concern, don’t you know, is a monopoly of progressives, socialists and liberals. Now, here are Farber’s comments, in italics, and my reaction is interspersed with his comments:

OK, what’s wrong with this proposal? Here are a few things:

1. Why just property owners? Why not other people with health effects? Is there some reason why a tenant with asthma can’t sue, but a company with paint damage can go to court? Because property values matter, but not human health?


There is a clear answer why Ron Paul specifies "property owners" not "tenants." This is because the property owner has the ultimate responsibility for the property in question. "The buck stops" with the property owner. And, you may well ask, who is the "property owner" in the case of tenancy? Why, of course, it is the tenant. It is the tenant who is the temporary "property owner" for as long as the lease contract is in effect. But, there is a complication. If a third party, the polluter, is bombarding the home in question with smoke particles, this not only affects the temporary property owner, the tenant (e.g., his lungs), it also negatively impacts the permanent property owner, the landlord (his property is being physically invaded and damaged, and as a result he will not be able to charge his tenants as much money compared to the situation where his property rights were sacrosanct). Both of them may, in the free society, obtain an injunction against the polluter, warding off future offenses, as well as seek damages for past wrongs. Does Farber really think it is fair to criticize a mere plank on a web for not engaging in this level of specificity? Evidently, all’s fair in love, war and politics, at least for this law professor.

Nor is his criticism of Ron Paul a fair one based on the claim that "property values matter, but not human health." Indeed, as we have seen, the two go together! Farber seems unacquainted with Adam Smith’s invisible hand; we are led through the market process to promote the general good. In this case the way to earn profits is by pleasing customers, not alienating them. Why else would the landlord want to sue the polluter apart from protecting his tenant from this nuisance, if not that the higher rents he can collect would reflect a more desirable pollution free environment? Why, to maximize profits, of course. (This is why the landlord has an incentive – in the absence of government interferences like rent control, to paint, to fix the plumbing, make other repairs, etc.). But these considerations lead precisely in the direction of "human health." This Berkeley law professor does not at all appreciate the benefits of the marketplace in protecting "human health." He seems to think that if the government doesn’t do it, then it doesn’t really count.

2. Who would be the defendants? If you live in a big city, how do you sue all of the polluters for damage? Do you sue everyone who has a car or truck for contributing to air pollution? How do you pay for the expert witnesses and legal fees?

The defendants would be the polluters, of course. Who else? No, you don’t sue all the polluters; only the ones who have actually trespassed their garbage onto your property (whether you own the property temporarily or permanently, see above, it matters not one whit). How would you determine who is who? Why, under free enterprise there would arise an industry composed of firms that engage in environmental forensics. We are all now fully well acquainted with ordinary forensics (the study of blood, semen, hair follicles to determine who has committed a crime) based on popular television shows. Environmental forensics would be carried on in much the same way. The victim would hire a company familiar with the chemistry of pollution. This firm would take samples from your property. Then, woe betide the company guilty of such trespasses.

No, no, you don’t have to "sue everyone who has a car or truck for contributing to air pollution." That is silly; it would be way too cumbersome. In the free society, all roads, streets, highways, avenues, thoroughfares, etc., would be privately owned. There would be many fewer street owners than motorists. You would just sue them (if your environmental forensics agent found evidence on your property of the end products of vehicle fuel); it would be a lot more efficient and reasonable that trying to take every single motorist in the big city to court.

But, to directly respond to Farber’s challenge, one way of financing such law suits would be on a contingency basis. Under proper libertarian law, the forensic firm would offer chemists, lawyers, etc. If they were convinced there was an actual case of pollution, they would likely go to court in support of their clients and initially bear these costs. We must not lose sight of the fact that many victims of pollution are very large corporations, some with thousands of tenants. Surely, they could self-finance any necessary lawsuits.


3. Why only damages? If he truly believed in property rights, he’d allow injunctions to stop the harm from continuing.

In the FME philosophy, there would of course be injunctions in cases of clear and present dangers. No person in a crowded city should be allowed to keep dynamite on his premises. If anyone did, an injunction against him would surely be justified. Just because this point is not mentioned in a very brief web site is surely not a valid criticism of the Paul campaign. These statements, by their very nature, must be brief. They cannot possibly cover all bases. I note that the web does not mention species extinction, either. Does this mean that Congressman Paul wants all species to disappear? Or is unconcerned with endangerment of elephants, rhinos? Of course not. Farber is a cheap-shot artist. In the libertarian literature on the environment recommended below the justification for injunctions is certainly included. The ethos of libertarianism opposes initiatory force, or the threat thereof. And, what is to be done, what is the only thing that can be done, about the latter? Why, injunctions, of course.

4. How would courts handle the immense body of litigation? The pollution suits would be the world’s biggest class actions, with millions of plaintiffs, swarms of defendants, huge fees for expert witnesses, etc. Is that really what conservatives want?

These questions and challenges assume that there would be any pollution under a regime of free enterprise with strict protection for private property rights. There would not be. If the law of the land was strictly enforced against the trespass of smoke particles, this practice would be virtually eliminated. Right now, the law of trespass against home invasions is strictly enforced. It is must be a rare thing indeed that someone goes on vacation, and comes home to find strangers living in his house. Why? Because such would-be trespassers know full well that if they tried any such shenanigan, they would be summarily removed from the premises, and face criminal charges. As a result, there are no "millions of plaintiffs, swarms of defendants, huge fees for expert witnesses" in these cases. But the same applies to trespassing dust, smoke and other pollutants.


We’ve already tried this approach, and it didn’t work. This is more or less where the law stood fifty years ago. We didn’t pass modern environmental laws because we loved regulation; we passed them because the old system led to massive air and water pollution. This isn’t a policy proposal. It’s a libertarian fantasy. And a callous one at that.

If this was truly the system we had "fifty years ago" then Farber should well know the answers to the questions he poses under his second point, above. Did we not have "big cities" in 1962, five decades ago? How did it work, then, Farber? Were there "millions of plaintiffs, swarms of defendants, huge fees for expert witnesses" in those days? Of course not.

This Berkeley law professor is off by a little bit more than one century in his charges; I guess they don’t teach history, or even acknowledge it, at this world famous university. ‘Twas not in 1962 that we had a legal system similar to the one Ron Paul is proposing and Farber apoplectically opposing. Rather, this took place, at least in proximate form, during the middle of the nineteenth century (see on this a very important work by historian Morton Horwitz). In that bygone era, people were allowed to sue for pollution. When the case of pollution victims, e.g., environmental plaintiffs, was demonstrated in court, they received damages after the fact, and/or injunctions beforehand. They didn’t always win, of course. The burden of proof always properly rests with the plaintiffs, not the defendants.

This property rights system had several very salutary effects. For one, manufacturers were led, by Adam Smith’s invisible hand, into substituting more expensive but cleaner burning anthracite coal for cheaper but dirtier burning sulfur coal. For another, the infant industry of environmental forensics was born. Someone, after all, had to testify, and demonstrate that this here particular dirt particle emanated from that there smokestack. Railroads were incentivized for similar reasons to capture the sparks from their engines, instead of allowing them to spread hundreds of feet from the tracks onto their neighbors’ property. The manufacturers of chimneys had reason to place meshes in them, to capture the end products of the burning process before they could land on other people’s lungs and physical property. Was this legal system perfect? No, of course not, no creation of man ever is. But it worked tolerably well, until the "Progressive" period at the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th.


Then, when the environmental plaintiff went to court, a new legal philosophy took place. We were not "number one," then, the leading hegemon, the most powerful imperialist nation in the world. No, that title belonged to England, at the time. But our political leaders had ambitions in that direction, and their views began to permeate the courts. So the next time a little old lady complained about a factory dirtying her washing on the clothes line, or a small farmer complained about sparks from a railroad burning his haystacks, the response was much more likely to be: "Yes, yes, they violated your private property rights, your stinking lousy selfish private property rights; but there is something more important, far more important, than them: the public good. And, in what does the public good consist? Why, in manufacturing, railroads, heavy industry. We’re not going to become the leading military power by taking the side of little old ladies and small agriculturalists." Here is an actual Supreme Court of Georgia opinion of this sort: "The pollution of the air, so far as reasonably necessary to the enjoyment of life and indispensable to the progress of society, is not actionable" (Holman v. Athens Empire Laundry Co., 1919, cited here). Not actionable? That means that environmental polluters cannot be sued. No one can be granted an injunction against them. They are liable for no damages when they rampage over other people’s property, with their pollutants.


http://lewrockwell.com/block/block189.html

(Although lewrockwell.com has several crazies in it, it does have its better moments).


A book on it here.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:33 pm
by Lootifer
Nice little argument; certainly not sold on it, but pretty solid all the same.

Two questions:
- Irreparable damage and practical limitations of liability? (do you do away with limitations of liability completely?)
- Property owners who are not able to defend themselves (national parks, animals, trees, etc.)?

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:21 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Lootifer wrote:Nice little argument; certainly not sold on it, but pretty solid all the same.

Two questions:
(1) - Irreparable damage and practical limitations of liability? (do you do away with limitations of liability completely?)
(2) - Property owners who are not able to defend themselves (national parks, animals, trees, etc.)?


(1) Seems like you'd have to, but if we want to be purely theoretical, then consider this. Suppose we have 10 largely autonomous political regions, and their overarching polity (some federal government) allows each region to set its own limitation on liability. Through trial-and-error, you might get the optimal limitation per region--depending on each region's peculiarities.

    (But then there's the problem of voting and democracy, and of avoiding road to similar outcomes of today's US government. I'm not sure how to give people the freedom to figure this out for themselves without having them muck it all up).

For irreparable damage, I'd still leave it to the courts to figure out some kind of compensation. (We had this with BP in the Gulf, but the federal government stepped in and set the cap to $60 or $80bn. Huge problem, but people don't really care because they focus too much on business while forgetting to be wary of the government).

    The main problem was that the "public interest" argument was frequently used to reject most people's reasonable request to get an injunction against some polluter. So, it's an ideological problem, which served particular interests very well, whether or not they truly believed supporting the polluters was best for the nation. One solution is education--getting people to understand the political process as it was (and still is).


(2) - Property owners who are not able to defend themselves (national parks, animals, trees, etc.)?
The government owns the national parks...
Trees are owned by various individuals/organizations...
Animals are either owned by their masters or 'by themselves'...

What do you mean?

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:30 pm
by notyou2
Reagan allowed drilling for oil in national parks, not sure if coal would be any different.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:35 pm
by Lootifer
By (2) i mean those entities who have no one to represent them in a court of law; or somehow have no means of representing themselves but I suppose if you still assume that government exists in some form they should have protection (I was assuming that government didn't have any property ownership - however they still "own" national parks/wild animals/public spaces etc etc?).

I still feel very uncomfortable with (1). You might be right, but the risk vs reward doesnt stack up for me.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 7:56 pm
by Quirk

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:11 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Lootifer wrote:By (2) i mean those entities who have no one to represent them in a court of law; or somehow have no means of representing themselves but I suppose if you still assume that government exists in some form they should have protection (I was assuming that government didn't have any property ownership - however they still "own" national parks/wild animals/public spaces etc etc?).

I still feel very uncomfortable with (1). You might be right, but the risk vs reward doesnt stack up for me.


Well, with (1), depending on how the limitations are determined, the most cautious would engage in the profitable opportunities.

With (2), the government represents itself--via some bureaucratic agency which controls the decision/ownership rights over the property. For example, the Forest Agency (whatever their correct name is) releases a bunch of wolves in its National Parks in an attempt to balance out the ecology (previously, they were exterminating the wolves from similar reasons but exterminated too many). According to Anderson's Free Market Environmentalism, the Park Service (?) takes no responsibility for its own animals, so if a pack of wolves or moose run through someone's yard and kills their dog or rapes their car, then the government takes no responsibility because they claim to not own the animals--even though they frequently reside in their property. It's a self-serving policy.

    How does one avoid that? Well, you can sell the national parks, or divy up some portion of ownership through shares to the more frequent customers, etc. Then they can assume responsibility for the park. Or if people bothered to read or become educated, then they'd realize what the government is up to and call for politicians who are more dedicated to correcting this problem in relation to other problems (good luck).

With people who can't afford an attorney, a fine State attorney shall be provided by them--a mediocre one will be provided if the case lacks marketability.

With (2), I'm still confused. How exactly is it related to the OP?

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 8:12 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Quirk wrote:


Mmm, sho' sounds goood.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:13 pm
by Lootifer
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, with (1), depending on how the limitations are determined, the most cautious would engage in the profitable opportunities.

Urgh.

With (2), I'm still confused. How exactly is it related to the OP?

Company dumps pollutants into lake that is used for nothing other than conservation of the rare i-reside-in-a-smelly-unattractive-boring-lake-that-attracts-no-tourists-and-i-also-look-exactly-the-same-as-every-other-frog-but-i-am-still-highly-endangered breed of frog (in other words the lake has no economic value whatsoever).

What entity can/does defend the frog in your little nirvana?

Actually f*ck it, I know the answer. Personally I think it is a shit one and one I will always argue against. There are many social shaped pegs that just dont fit in your economic shaped holes.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:17 pm
by BigBallinStalin
Lootifer wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Well, with (1), depending on how the limitations are determined, the most cautious would engage in the profitable opportunities.

Urgh.

With (2), I'm still confused. How exactly is it related to the OP?

Company dumps pollutants into lake that is used for nothing other than conservation of the rare i-reside-in-a-smelly-unattractive-boring-lake-that-attracts-no-tourists-and-i-also-look-exactly-the-same-as-every-other-frog-but-i-am-still-highly-endangered breed of frog (in other words the lake has no economic value whatsoever).

What entity can/does defend the frog in your little nirvana?

Actually f*ck it, I know the answer. Personally I think it is a shit one and one I will always argue against. There are many social shaped pegs that just dont fit in your economic shaped holes.


Well, that's not an argument. That's just an outright refusal to think. An ideology can be cheap and satisfying, but you'd still be acting irresponsibly.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 5:21 pm
by Lootifer
Unlike your unbelievably open minded attitude?

Haha!

ps: The statement of my argument is in the last sentance (granted I have not expanded on it).

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2013 6:30 pm
by AndyDufresne
BigBallinStalin wrote:Re: This is a coal thread


BBS, I humbly submit this could not be a coal thread, until:




--Andy

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:02 am
by BigBallinStalin
Lootifer wrote:Unlike your unbelievably open minded attitude?

Haha!

ps: The statement of my argument is in the last sentance (granted I have not expanded on it).


I'm highly critical of my many stances, but in this forum--since people do not understand free markets and libertarianism, I'm usually restricted to pumping out messages of that sort. If you happen to catch me with a bunch of libertarians, I'm the contrarian.

Anyway, this 'tit-for-that' thing doesn't refute your insistence on not thinking. We can go back to the debate or continue this "merh, i durnt like u" conversation.

Re: This is a coal thread

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2013 1:05 am
by BigBallinStalin
AndyDufresne wrote:
BigBallinStalin wrote:Re: This is a coal thread


BBS, I humbly submit this could not be a coal thread, until:




--Andy



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