Conquer Club

For those who haven't seen it yet, here is the URL:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Anyway, I'm not interested in a rehash of Syria. I think everybody in this forum knows exactly what everybody else thinks about that. Regardless of any impact it may or may not have on Syria or on the Middle East in general, what I'm curious about is specifically the effect on Russian-American relations.

Do you think Putin overplayed his hand? Do you think there will be a backlash here, with Americans getting their egos up at this foreigner insulting their President? Or can it generate a positive dialogue of some kind?

I see a lot of positive comments on the NYT site, like

International diplomacy is certainly preferable to military intervention. I applaud President Putin for bringing the conversation to a higher level.

but also some negative comments like

It is unbelievable to me that people are actually writing in support of this ex KGB Russian. This certainly reflects the failure of our educational system when people do not understand who this man is, how he operates, and what his motives are. How shocking it is for people to praise this man's propaganda. Our system may not be perfect, but is is exceptional compared to what Putin provides for his citizens.

So I'm curious. Will Americans buy the kinder, gentler Putin Mark Two, or is this a serious miscalculation on his part?

It enrages me. The conflict against the Russians should be more pronounced now than it was during the 60s, since the Russians are doing more to deliberately f*ck with the Western way of life than they ever have.

If you read the Syrian thread, the main reason I support a full-scale invasion is because it interferes with the USSR interests in the area.

I think Putin is running circles around Obama. But you have to remember the narrative manipulation of the situation. Remember when everyone laughed at Romney during the debates for identifying Russia as America's #1 adversary? WHAT AN IDIOT!!!

For those of you interested, my initial response to this question was simple, and follows below:

"Yummy"

After thinking about it for longer than a nanosecond, I have a much more in depth response:

"I really don't care what Putin is saying. I don't trust him. However, I don't want to bomb anyone in Syria, because I don't care, and don't think either side is better than the other. The only ones I feel for are the 'innocent' civilians, which basically means the children. And bombing Syria won't help them. So I'm out."

Bollocks.

Dukasaur wrote:Do you think there will be a backlash here, with Americans getting their egos up at this foreigner insulting their President?

Americans seem to be more offended by Obama's pro-Israel diatribe sandwiched between Dancing with the Stars and The Mindy Project than Putin's calm-headed pro-peace reflections printed in the august pages of the New York Times ...

The poll found that Obama's speech to the nation on Tuesday had virtually no effect on Americans' reluctance to engage in Syria's civil war ...

Reuters/Ipsos pollsters also found that most Americans were not swayed by Obama's argument that the United States had a compelling interest to get involved in Syria to stop the spread of chemical weapons and protect U.S. national security.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... Y620130913

Dukasaur wrote:Do you think there will be a backlash here, with Americans getting their egos up at this foreigner insulting their President?

Not really. I made a post last week about a convo I had with a mentor where he said "I can't believe Obama is making me root for the Russkies" I don't by any means lives in a bubble, but most people sum it up to Obama's inexperience and his unsurprising level of absolute softness. If there ever was a paper tiger, it's Obama. I think a great many Americans know Obama is out of his league. As for me, I think Putin is very smart, too smart even. I just hope he doesn't f*ck Obama up too badly.

The other people I know whom I would suspect would support Obama no matter what have been pretty silent on the issue. But they are usually silent on most issues and only start making noise when the narrative demands it (jared loughner/civility, 30 million people without health insurance, "we need to do SOMETHING!") I do expect this will be an issue where the culture Gods push and push and push in the media and the universities,accompanied by an "unforeseen" event or two, and finally people will start speaking up in support of using force against Syria. After a few more rounds of image manipulation concerning Syrian children on 1 side of the conflict (but not the other side's children) I think the polls may eventually get to 50% support for military action in Syria. Obama and his administration have already signed their names on the line, so knowing that I expect it's just a matter of time. As soon as there is nothing left for Obama to gain politically in the 2014 election cycle and Congress has been scapegoated enoughm I expect we will indeed use pre-emptive force against Syria, then the backlash.

Here is a document proving that Putin is going to try to block out the Sun in Canada and more importantly, Chicago.

If that's not an act of war, I don't know what is.

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/OH/OHfigures/OH2014-Fig04.pdf

I love stuff like this from the Russians. It is very amusing to see Putin of all people using a law and order argument against the USA and it's beautifully put to use here. How long has the US been nagging Russia about rule of law in its backyard? Now Putin gets to throw that right in the US government's face. "If you intervene in Syria you will be ignoring international law, because we will sure as hell veto it in the UN security council". He also backs it up with another American trope, we are all created equal no one is special, backed up with some handy god talk which will play well to the American public.

Cynicism and hypocrisy aside. I don't see anything in the letter that is directly insulting. It is certainly pointed and has its barbs, but all the critics and arguments seem pretty legitimate. Law should apply equally to all, yup sounds right. One country ignoring laws and randomly invading other countries will make them want to defend themselves with WMDs, yup sounds right. Opposition fighters have a strong contingent of Islamist we know fighters in libya moved on to mali, yup that's true.

I doubt the US public will get up in arms over this.

DoomYoshi wrote:Here is a document proving that Putin is going to try to block out the Sun in Canada and more importantly, Chicago.

If that's not an act of war, I don't know what is.

http://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/OH/OHfigures/OH2014-Fig04.pdf

Thanks. I've set my calendar accordingly.

Also, 'calendar' should be spelled 'calender'. I blame Putin and Obama, working together, against me.


(Back to OP: Agreed with BVP. Saxi's Putin-fawning is too much for me).

Putin is the guy who locked up Pussy Riot for a few minutes of dissent & public protest in a church. He doesn't possess the capacity to take criticism at all. Essentially he can dish it out, but isn't big enough to take it.

oVo wrote:Putin is the guy who locked up Pussy Riot for a few minutes of dissent & public protest in a church. He doesn't possess the capacity to take criticism at all. Essentially he can dish it out, but isn't big enough to take it.

That's as accurate as saying "Obama is the guy who had a man and a woman arrested at a Houston church" ...

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=9110233

It's a hilarious, albeit popular, conspiracy theory that the President of Russia is directly involved in day to day municipal policing decisions for misdemeanors like trespassing in cities and towns around Russia.

Putin the Panopticon

When Putin asks you to obey international law, you really know your country has fucked up it's image. A drunk cow could see that invading Syria is wrong. Yet somehow these clowns are talking it up. Makes Putin look like a stand up guy when all he's doing is saying the self evident.

I don't know enough about Russia or Russian politices or Vladimir Putin to provide any commentary. That being said, I do love this:

It is unbelievable to me that people are actually writing in support of this ex KGB Russian. This certainly reflects the failure of our educational system when people do not understand who this man is, how he operates, and what his motives are. How shocking it is for people to praise this man's propaganda. Our system may not be perfect, but is is exceptional compared to what Putin provides for his citizens.

This commentator acts as if there is no U.S. propaganda. Cracks me up.

saxitoxin wrote:

oVo wrote:Putin is the guy who locked up Pussy Riot for a few minutes of dissent & public protest in a church. He doesn't possess the capacity to take criticism at all. Essentially he can dish it out, but isn't big enough to take it.

That's as accurate as saying "Obama is the guy who had a man and a woman arrested at a Houston church" ...

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=9110233

It's a hilarious, albeit popular, conspiracy theory that the President of Russia is directly involved in day to day municipal policing decisions for misdemeanors like trespassing in cities and towns around Russia.

So when Ilya Yashin and other opposition party members were illegally searched in May, 2012, Putin had nothing to do with it?

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular...

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:They undermined the moral foundations of the nation
and they got what they asked for.

thegreekdog wrote:I don't know enough about Russia or Russian politices or Vladimir Putin to provide any commentary. That being said, I do love this:

It is unbelievable to me that people are actually writing in support of this ex KGB Russian. This certainly reflects the failure of our educational system when people do not understand who this man is, how he operates, and what his motives are. How shocking it is for people to praise this man's propaganda. Our system may not be perfect, but is is exceptional compared to what Putin provides for his citizens.

This commentator acts as if there is no U.S. propaganda. Cracks me up.

Haha, another point is that Putin's intentions don't matter--in regard to the argument about international law and how the US arbitrarily appeals to it or disregards it. It's the outcomes that matter (e.g. Putin and the American electorate stressing diplomacy or at least no US war in Syria).

DoomYoshi wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:

oVo wrote:Putin is the guy who locked up Pussy Riot for a few minutes of dissent & public protest in a church. He doesn't possess the capacity to take criticism at all. Essentially he can dish it out, but isn't big enough to take it.

That's as accurate as saying "Obama is the guy who had a man and a woman arrested at a Houston church" ...

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=9110233

It's a hilarious, albeit popular, conspiracy theory that the President of Russia is directly involved in day to day municipal policing decisions for misdemeanors like trespassing in cities and towns around Russia.

So when Ilya Yashin and other opposition party members were illegally searched in May, 2012, Putin had nothing to do with it?

I don't believe Ilya Yashin is a member of Pussy Riot.

(also to call Ilya Yashin an "opposition party" member is a bit of a stretch for a party that has 0 seats in parliament)

sounds like one of those "Obama illegally searched American phone records, therefore FEMA camps" kinda things

oVo wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular conspiracy theory that the President of Russia is directly involved in day to day municipal policing decisions for misdemeanors like trespassing in cities and towns around Russia.

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:They undermined the moral foundations of the nation
and they got what they asked for.

I agree - this seems to follow the pattern of popular conspiracy theories that assign the President a hand of involvement based on an off-hand comment he makes on a popular issue of the day. Kinda like the people who were claiming Obama was secretly directing the Trayvon Martin case just because he made a few public remarks on a heavily covered news item. Unfortunately, popular politics seem to be based on the recognition of a public that is fundamentally irrational and still sees secret signs and hidden agendas in ordinary events. I guess humanity hasn't advanced much beyond the days of yore when eclipses were taken as omens of disaster.

oVo wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular...

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:[size=150They undermined the moral foundations of the nation [/size]
and they got what they asked for.

When Obama disparages the acts of terrorists (e.g. mass shootings in schools), does this mean that we should claim that Obama "is the guy who had them arrested"?

Saxi, do you truly believe President Putin had anything better to do than direct the incarceration of Pussy Riot?

BigBallinStalin wrote:

oVo wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular...

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:[size=150They undermined the moral foundations of the nation [/size]
and they got what they asked for.

When Obama disparages the acts of terrorists (e.g. mass shootings in schools), does this mean that we should claim that Obama "is the guy who had them arrested"?

I'd be ok with that.

Symmetry wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

oVo wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular...

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:[size=150They undermined the moral foundations of the nation [/size]
and they got what they asked for.

When Obama disparages the acts of terrorists (e.g. mass shootings in schools), does this mean that we should claim that Obama "is the guy who had them arrested"?

I'd be ok with that.

(The arrests occur before Obama had his speechwriters pounding on the keyboards).

BigBallinStalin wrote:

Symmetry wrote:

BigBallinStalin wrote:

oVo wrote:

saxitoxin wrote:It's a hilarious, albeit popular...

On February 21, 2012, five members of Pussy Riot staged a performance in the sanctuary of Moscow's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. Their actions were stopped by church security officials. By evening, they had turned it into a music video entitled "Punk Prayer - Mother of God, Chase Putin Away!". The women said their protest was directed at the Orthodox Church leader's support for Putin during his election campaign.
Arrested on March 3, 2012, three members of the group were convicted of hooliganism in August and sentenced to two years imprisonment.

Putin wrote:[size=150They undermined the moral foundations of the nation [/size]
and they got what they asked for.

When Obama disparages the acts of terrorists (e.g. mass shootings in schools), does this mean that we should claim that Obama "is the guy who had them arrested"?

I'd be ok with that.

(The arrests occur before Obama had his speechwriters pounding on the keyboards).

I think you're trying to go somewhere with this, but I'm not sure you know where... is your example still Obama presiding over the arrests of mass murderers? I'm still pretty much ok with anyone claiming credit for those guys being prosecuted.

Symmetry wrote:I'm still pretty much ok with anyone claiming credit for those guys being prosecuted.

Cool. Let me jump in here right now then and claim credit for arresting Ted Bundy.

Also, unless anyone else has dibs on it yet, I'm responsible for saving the occupants of Titanic lifeboats #12-17. Also, I directed Gone With the Wind. I also starred in it (as Scarlett O'Hara).

saxitoxin wrote:

Symmetry wrote:I'm still pretty much ok with anyone claiming credit for those guys being prosecuted.

Cool. Let me jump in here right now then and claim credit for arresting Ted Bundy.

Well done, I remain ok.