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Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

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Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:56 am

This topic is from another thread (as to whether morality is inherent or changing... I'm sure someone will come up with better words).

Over the past few months, media, entertainment, and political folks have been increasingly up in arms over the football team name "Redskins" (Washington's NFL team). The issue is the bigotry associated with the name (not just the skin color reference, but the history behind the term itself and the people associated with the term). While I'm not offended by the name, I see no compelling reason to keep the name if other folks are offended.

What is annoying me is that these media, entertainment, and political folks are coming out of the proverbial woodwork to be the most vehement that the name needs to change. Now, the Washington team has had this name since 1933 (they were the Boston Braves in 1932). Many of these media, entertainment, and political figures have had active and public voices in the United States long before 2013. So, why the vehemence and outrage now? Why not in 1947 or 1972 or 1986 or 1999 or 2008 or 2012?

The basic questions are these:
- Is this name more offensive in 2013 than it was in any other period since 1933?
- Why do people feel the need to be outraged now and not in any other period since 1933?
- How much weight do we place on the opinions of people who used the term "Redskins" profusely for years before suddenly changing their values and/or moral compass in 2013?

*Fun note - The Tampa Bay Rays were formerly called the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. A group of Christians got the name changed a few years ago, even though a devil ray is an actual, you know, animal.
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:09 am

The problem with this is it is weak nonsolution to a pretend problem.

There is a huge effort to change a 100 year old name suddenly perceived to be offensive while actual issues get ignored.

Anyone hear about the Turkish pilots that were kidnapped? Didn't think so.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby Metsfanmax on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:36 am

I think that it became legit when Bob Costas weighed in.

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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby muy_thaiguy on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:40 am

Actually, it seems there have been movements to get it changed for quite awhile, but its only just now getting in the headlines.
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Re:

Postby Frigidus on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:49 am

i remember reading somewhere that less than 10% of Native Americans found the team's name offensive. My impression of the issue is that most of the people that are talking about it right now are white guys that don't want to come off as insensitive.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby InnyaFacce on Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:49 am

The Washington Redskins name controversy involves the name and logo of the Washington Redskins which has been a source of controversy between its owners, certain Native American groups, fans, and the United States government. Some Native American groups insist that the term redskin is a racial epithet, and as such, it perpetuates demeaning stereotypes of Native Americans. Numerous civil rights, educational, athletic, and academic organizations consider any use of native names/symbols by non-native sports teams to be a harmful form of ethnic stereotyping which should be eliminated. Others believe that the name is honoring the achievements and virtues of Native Americans, and that it is not intended in a negative manner. Former Redskins owner Jack Kent Cooke said "I admire the Redskins name. I think it stands for bravery, courage, and a stalwart spirit and I see no reason why we shouldn't continue to use it." These differing opinions have led to controversy, protests and legislative action.

The origin of the word "redskin" is debated. Some scholars say that the word was coined by early settlers in reference to the skin tone of Native Americans. Smithsonian Institution senior linguist and curator emeritus Ives Goddard asserts that the actual origin of the word is benign and reflects more positive aspects of early relations between Native Americans and whites. It emerged at a specific time in history among a small group of men linked by joint activities that provided the context that brought it forth. That context was the need for a term that all could use in negotiating treaties during the late 18th and early 19th centuries. It is later that the term became more pejorative. A linguistic analysis of books published between 1875 and 1930 show an increasingly negative context in the use of redskin, often in association with "dirty", "lying", etc.; while benign or positive usage such as "noble" redskin were used in a condescending manner. The term continued in common use until the 1960s, as evidenced in Western movies, but is now largely considered a pejorative and is seldom used publicly aside from football teams. As with any term perceived to be discriminatory, different individuals may hold differing opinions of the term's appropriateness.

Legal Action

In 1992, Suzan Shown Harjo, President of the Morning Star Institute, joined forces with other prominent Native Americans as well as the Dorsey & Whitney law firm of Minneapolis and petitioned the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office. They based their lawsuit on the idea that federal trademark law states that certain trademarks are not legal if they are "disparaging, scandalous contemptuous, or disreputable." The legal battle went on for seven years and in 1999 the judges canceled the federal trademarks of the Redskin name "on the grounds that the subject marks may disparage Native Americans and may bring them into contempt or disrepute."

Upon the news that the Redskins had been sold, the owners appealed the decision to a district court in the District of Columbia in Pro-Football, Inc. vs. Harjo. The court reversed the decision on the grounds of insufficient evidence of disparagement. Subsequent appeals have been rejected on the basis of laches, which means that the Native Americans had pursued their rights in an untimely and delayed manner. However a second case, Blackhorse v. Pro-Football, Inc., with younger plaintiffs whose standing might not be hindered by laches is proceeding in 2013. If the trademark were canceled, the Washington Redskins would be able to keep the name and many of their federally trademarked rights, but they may lose millions of dollars worth of merchandise sales.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby BigBallinStalin on Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:07 pm

thegreekdog wrote: Many of these media, entertainment, and political figures have had active and public voices in the United States long before 2013. So, why the vehemence and outrage now? Why not in 1947 or 1972 or 1986 or 1999 or 2008 or 2012?

The basic questions are these:
- Is this name more offensive in 2013 than it was in any other period since 1933?
- Why do people feel the need to be outraged now and not in any other period since 1933?
- How much weight do we place on the opinions of people who used the term "Redskins" profusely for years before suddenly changing their values and/or moral compass in 2013?


Huh? I hope you haven't forgotten what the media is all about: sensationalism! :D

They run this story every now and then when they don't have anything else more entertaining to run. They're not that outraged, but appearing outraged makes for better ratings. That's all.

Regarding your last question, they should all be hung!
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby john9blue on Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:56 pm

maybe it's happening recently because people's desire to look "progressive" is at an all-time high?

BBS also has a point, most people will take up whatever cause the media is hyping at that particular point in time.

also, you use the word "folks" more often than obama does...
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby thegreekdog on Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:42 pm

john9blue wrote:also, you use the word "folks" more often than obama does...


I like the term.

BigBallinStalin wrote:Huh? I hope you haven't forgotten what the media is all about: sensationalism!


Right. This is really a rhetorical thread, but I wanted to see if anyone else took this issue seriously.

Maybe we have one.

Metsfanmax wrote:I think that it became legit when Bob Costas weighed in.



Bob Costas has been a sports broadcaster with a national profile since about 1979. He participated in NFL broadcasts in the 1980s and 1990s. He hosted the television show The NFL on NBC (Football Night in America) beginning in 2006.

Before 2013, he had many opportunities to comment on the Redskins name, and did not. Why?
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby patches70 on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:11 pm

If the Washington Redskins change their name, I hope they change it to the Washington Foreskins. In honor of the dickheads in Congress.
Surely no one would object to that?
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Postby 2dimes on Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:26 pm

Fine, make them the Washington Redneckskins then. Get 'er done!
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby Phatscotty on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:09 pm

90% of native Americans do not find the term offensive.

Almost as many are offended by the name Redskins as there are offended by the name Native American. CBS has let political correctness and divide and conquer strategies loose into the zombie population.

and just Cuz Bob Costas is worried about his legacy, or that he spent his entire life commenting on a game and didn't actually do anything relevant, does not give him automatic credibility. This is the same thing as Cher or Robert Redford making ridiculous statements as their careers come to and end or have a new product for sale, or after every latest roudn of cosmetic surgery.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby Timminz on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:29 pm

The Washington Redskins are changing the team name because of all the negativity, shame, humiliation, dissent, polarity, adversity, defiance, animosity, contempt, discrimination, division, counter-productivity and hostility associated with their name.










From now on they'll be known simply as the Redskins.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:33 pm

Names change in sports for different reasons. I don't mind. But when they suggest the rewriting of books from the past to take out offensive terms, I don't support it.

They want to change Of Mice and Men to be more correct. Wasn't Steinbeck the voice of his generation? How much more correct can we get?
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby saxitoxin on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:54 pm

The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux controversy was the best for so many reasons. But, in the midst of them all, this was the greatest quote ...

Bubba Standing Bear, who spent Wednesday herding cows on horseback, said he would have approved the measure had he been old enough to vote.

http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2 ... s-nickname
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viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:04 pm

Is this racist:

My wife is going to community college here, a way for here to familiarize herself with Canada, (and improve her English grammar). She is the only Chinese at the school. The teacher asked them to do a presentation on how a social media site could improve your business. One group was given facebook, another got twitter, a third instagram, and one got youtube. She was given google plus.

Racist or am i missing something? Why not linkedin?
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:49 pm

Wasn't there a baseball team called the Birmingham Niggers, or is that just an internet joke?
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:51 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Is this racist:

My wife is going to community college here, a way for here to familiarize herself with Canada, (and improve her English grammar). She is the only Chinese at the school. The teacher asked them to do a presentation on how a social media site could improve your business. One group was given facebook, another got twitter, a third instagram, and one got youtube. She was given google plus.

Racist or am i missing something? Why not linkedin?


What makes the story racist?
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:01 pm

The author.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:03 pm

You used Chinese as an adjective and didn't follow it with a noun.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby Nobunaga on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:04 pm

Here's a question for the lawyer types.

Can a privately owned company be forced to change its name because some are offended?

(End question section)

If the name of the team is so offensive, you'd think the Skins wouldn't pack the house every weekend. They do, or come damned close.

Let offended people stop buying tickets - show the owner how offensive the team's name is. That'll fix em! :lol:
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:12 pm

She is the only Chinese at the school.
She is the only Russian at the school.
She is the only Swede at the school.
She is the only Australian at the school.

Your welcome.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby mrswdk on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:16 pm

She is the only Chinese <noun> at the school.

Note that you didn't say 'She is the only Swedish at the school'. You correctly identified that 'Swedish' is only a noun when used in reference to the language, and is otherwise an adjective.

_sabotage_ wrote:Your welcome.


Nice try, but I've used the internet before.
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby Nobunaga on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:17 pm

_sabotage_ wrote:Is this racist:

My wife is going to community college here, a way for here to familiarize herself with Canada, (and improve her English grammar). She is the only Chinese at the school. ...


I bet she's kicking their arses at mathematics!

(Is that racist?)
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Re: Changing Values and Morality - The Redskins

Postby _sabotage_ on Fri Oct 18, 2013 8:19 pm

Oh forgive me then. She is the only chink at the school.
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