Conquer Club

First off, the rules:

1) It is assumed for the sake of argument in this thread that God/Goddess/Other exists, so don't waste our time by debating whether or not they actually exist. If you want to do that then go start another thread or post on the end of a pre-existing thread of that nature(you'll find the graveyard of page 2 and beyond full of such corpses waiting for you necrobump them back into life.)

2) This is not a debate on MyGod vs YourGod either. I don't want a debate where everyone tries to prove their God/Goddess/Other is more valid and real than everyone else's God/Goddess/Other, because that argument would almost certainly work it's way around to crossing rule number one.

3) See rules 1 & 2.


Now for the questions:
"Is God/Goddess/Other subject to their own rules/laws/dictates?...... How would we ever be able to determine whether or not that is the case?...... Do we have some good examples?

I don't really know much about the specifics of any religion, all I've got are some half remembered classroom lessons. I'd like to hear from all of you first.

Just for clarification, is this thread for moral rules, metaphysical rules, or both?

I'm not subject to my own rules.

God's rules are for humans to follow. Everything is his creation, so it's up to him what he does with it. You, on the other hand, are God's property and have to treat other pieces of his property the way he wants you to.

The relationship between God, the 10 commandments and humans is much the same as the relationship between the Chinese government, China's legal system and China's citizens*.



*for srs. China's constitution puts the Communist Party above the law. They have authority over the legal system, not the other way round.

It depends on how one answers the Ehthyphro dilemma:

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"
(wiki)

(1) So, if action A is morally good because God says so, then obviously anything he says would be morally good, so it's arbitrary. There's no rhyme or reason to it other than, "Because I said so." (Imagine your parents using that one on you, or consistently applying this logic to the less pleasant rules within the bible--this is something not many believers seem to do, so that reveals their preference for (2), which doesn't bode well for god-given rules).

(2) However, if action A is morally good because it itself is good (and God agrees, thus commands it), then morality is independent of God (which it is), but this undermines the 'legitimacy' of Bible-founded claims about moral rules. If morality is independent of God, then why take all his commands so seriously?


Many believers don't like the implications of (1), so they use a jedi mind trick ("there is no dilemma"), but if it's (1), then the rules are merely the whim of God. And if we impose the Three O's to get around this, then we run into more problems.

If it's (2), then 'God' or Sky Man wouldn't be subject to the rules because who would enforce such rules on him? Again, then we dip into the Three O's nonsense and get entangled in its problem (God's all-powerful so like no rules can constrain him).


The future of this thread seems dim.

BigBallinStalin wrote:
The future of this thread seems dim.

So are most of its posters....

A man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

In describing God alone as good, Jesus is suggesting that "good" is not based on sin, as Jesus is without sin and yet not "good".

Being good is not subject to following the laws, but based on an inherent quality, unavailable to man. Man has free will and as such has bad within him even if he chooses not to succumb to it, while God lacks the ability to be tempted.

_sabotage_ wrote:A man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

In describing God alone as good, Jesus is suggesting that "good" is not based on sin, as Jesus is without sin and yet not "good".

Being good is not subject to following the laws, but based on an inherent quality, unavailable to man. Man has free will and as such has bad within him even if he chooses not to succumb to it, while God lacks the ability to be tempted.

Did you miss the opening of the post, where he said he was not specifically mentioning any god, let alone the *sigh* Christian one?

Rule 1, don't waste your time debating whether they exist?

Didn't debate that question...

Rule 2, don't debate "my God, your God"

Didn't debate that question...

Is God/Goddess/Other subject to their own rules/laws/dictates?...... How would we ever be able to determine whether or not that is the case?...... Do we have some good examples?

tried to answer these questions.

Nope, seems you missed opening post.

dario2099 wrote:I'm not subject to my own rules.

Point is, if a simple guy like me is not subject to his own rules, I highly doubt an omnipotent fictional character is.

Artimis wrote: Do we have some good examples?[/i]

Not except from the militant Bible Thumpers...

There you go, Sabotage...

Non-militant failing follower of Jesus.

I very specifically did *not* state that Gods/Goddesses/Others could not be named.

On the contrary, I'd like to hear about them and their edicts and whether or not they are bound to their own edicts(in so far as we can tell).

crispybits wrote:Just for clarification, is this thread for moral rules, metaphysical rules, or both?

Any rules, decrees, edicts, etc and so forth that are issued by a given deity are open for discussion as to whether or not they constrain or bind said deity in any way shape or form.

I wonder if it's a case of "Do as I say, not do as I do." -Which is how I interpret mrswdk's analogy of the Chinese state and it's relation to Chinese law and the Chinese people.

Then there was a fine post by BBS which also echoes my puzzlement over the notion of an all-caring, all-powerful and all-present deity, everyday life does not agree with this notion.

It's almost certainly do as I say and not as I do - at least from the Christian side. Here's a few Bible passages:

Deuteronomy 24:16 - Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; only for his own guilt shall a man be put to death.

Jeremiah 31:30 - ...through his own fault only shall anyone die...

Ezekiel 18:20 - Only the one who sins will die. The son shall not be charged with the sins of the father, nor shall the father be charged with the guilt of the son.

Exodus 20:5 / Numbers 14:18 / Deuteronomy 5:9 - I am a jealous God inflicting punishment on the children for generations for their father’s wickedness…

Exodus 34:7 - The sins of the father will be punished upon his future children and grandchildren to the 3rd and 4th generation for their father's wickedness.

Clearly there is one rule for God, and one rule for humanity at work here. Whether that is acceptable given other theological claims is open to debate...

Well, for the concept of Judaism, etc. Humans weren't meant to grasp the concept of "Good" in the first place, as God does, because it isn't a moral quality, it's an aesthetic one. In the beginning God creating light and said it was "Good", not because it helped anything at that point since everything else was a void, just because it was a pretty and shiny thing. Humans later eat from the tree of knowledge and are able to see the "good" and "evil" that God tried to hide from them, they believe that being naked is not "Good", and because they broke away from God's design for its own perfect world and developed their own aesthetics, they sort of knew and/or created evil by having thoughts and motives inconsistent with God's.

Isaiah 55:8 wrote:"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord."

God then forces them to reproduce, to die, to toil, to struggle, and face all other unpleasant things in the world. It's sort of a pointless question to argue the goodness of God in that regard, It's like asking whether or not The Empire destroying planets in Star Wars makes George Lucas evil, when the point of creating both sides was just to further an aesthetic narrative.

The point of arguing God's "good" was to understand better what God's promises mean. Take the covenant of the rainbow for example.

Genesis 8:21 wrote:The LORD smelled the soothing aroma; and the LORD said to Himself, "I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

As Sabotage said, there is no way for man to follow God's good, so instead God makes a promise restricting himself to himself. It's not quite a "binding" rule per-say, but rather the acknowledgement of a portion of narrative that will come to pass due to God's own mentality.

Numbers 23:19 wrote:God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Heaven lasts long, and Earth abides
What is the secret of their durability?
Is it because they do not live for themselves
That they endure so long?

-- Lao Tzu, Datalinks

God tried to keep humans ignorant. He forbade access to the Tree of Knowledge. He wanted farmyard fodder, not critical thinkers. Then Satan came along and mentally emancipated Adam and Eve, and because of this God has been demonising him ever since. The message is clear: I am the daddy and if you resist me then I will crush you.

Again we see that God is not so different to the Communist Party of China.

god is dead

nietzsche wrote:god is dead

We still have a lot more though.

How about Zeus?
We definitely know that Olympian gods are bound by their oaths to mortal and immortal alike lest they anger Zeus, and he in turn is bound to to his deals. In fact following Zeus' own rise to power, he declared that oaths between god be sworn to the name of the goddess Styx, even further removing his ability to break oaths.

Yet isn't it odd that such a wise, just, and honorable god as great Zeus shows so little respect to his marriage with Hera? Perhaps the gods only care about laws so far as they can bend them before the order than gives them power is threatened. After all Zeus stole his seat from father Cronus, who stole power from Uranus, then repeated Cronus' own cruelties by consuming his own wife and unborn son to keep his throne safe. The laws might only exist so that Zeus is not overthrown by the other gods.

Artimis wrote:Now for the questions:
"Is God/Goddess/Other subject to their own rules/laws/dictates?...... How would we ever be able to determine whether or not that is the case?...... Do we have some good examples?

the question you ask isn't an easy one to answer, but i will try to explain what i believe to be the truth,

first the answer would depend on what you mean by rules/laws/dictates,
there is more than one type of law, for example there is God's law and the laws of man, God's law is higher than mans law. but also within the laws given of God there are many different levels. not that God has changed the rules, but that he gave to some a lesser law, because they weren't ready for the higher law.
For example, the Jews were told thou shalt not kill, then when Jesus came he told them that the higher law was to avoid contention and to not let your anger control your actions. both laws are true but the Jews at the time weren't spiritually prepared for the higher law of don't act in anger. God could have given them this higher law but many of them wouldn't be able to follow it and would then stand condemned, but since God loves us he gives us only that which we are able to understand and obey.
yes there have been times that God has commanded the Jews to kill, but the thing to remember is that those killed were as the scriptures said filled with wickedness and sin. sometimes the death of one person is required so that entire nations can live in freedom and peace.

so yes there are rules that God follows, but these rules are not necessarily the same rules that God has given to us here on the Earth

as for examples that is harder to answer, simply because i don't know what God knows, i don't know all the rules that he is bound by, there fore i can't give good examples, but the scriptures do hold answers, and as it says in James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."
this question you asked is of a spirtutal nature so i would suggest asking God and letting him answer the question for you.