Arguments against gun control

[mrswdk]

Okay, sorry if I'm rehashing an old thread but..

I was reading the thread about guns in schools and I saw PS talking about the millions of dollars being spent on things like bullet-proof glass in schools in his area.

I can't understand why you'd be prepared to live in a society where the threat of your child being massacred in his/her classroom is so real that their school is installing bullet-proof glass. At what point do you think 'this is fucking stupid, let's just ban guns'? Why is owning a gun so important to some Am*ricans?

[thegreekdog]

Do you think the installation of bullet-proof glass in schools is an appropriate reaction to recent events? Or do you think it is a knee-jerk and wholly ridiculous reaction to recent events?

In related news, there was a large multi-car accident on a highway. The state is considering either banning driving or spending $200 million on crash-proof vehicles.

[2dimes]

It's fun to shoot stuff.

[Metsfanmax]

I can't understand why you'd be prepared to live in a society where the threat of your child being massacred in his/her classroom is so real that their school is installing bullet-proof glass. At what point do you think 'this is fucking stupid, let's just ban guns'? Why is owning a gun so important to some Am*ricans?

Because everyone who shoots children in schools is a gang member who would still have easy access to an AR-15 if they were banned.

[notyou2]

Bullet proof glass....HA!!!!

They will just make bombs instead.

[Anarkistsdream]

A pipe bomb is just as easy, maybe easier, than getting a gun...

I own several firearms... I am also extremely liberal...

[mrswdk]

Do you think the installation of bullet-proof glass in schools is an appropriate reaction to recent events? Or do you think it is a knee-jerk and wholly ridiculous reaction to recent events?

I'd say it's the latter. Still, it's telling that the people who are that freaked out will choose bullet-proof glass and not gun control.

[isaiah40]

Do you think the installation of bullet-proof glass in schools is an appropriate reaction to recent events? Or do you think it is a knee-jerk and wholly ridiculous reaction to recent events?

I'd say it's the latter. Still, it's telling that the people who are that freaked out will choose bullet-proof glass and not gun control.

So tell me how have 10,000 gun control laws would keep me, as a potential criminal, from getting a gun and going to these wonderful sitting duck zones and shooting up the place? Criminals are called criminals for a reason, and it is because they break the law(s) no matter what you do, or how many laws you put on the books. Nothing will stop a criminal from getting his/her hands on a gun if they wanted one. On the day that Sandy hook happened, 23 students in China where killed by a KNIFE welding man, oh, China has really tough gun control laws. So now what? DO we have to have tougher knife control laws as well?

[mrswdk]

Mr. Fact says: 'Those children were injured. The man was subdued without any fatalities occurring.'

[Metsfanmax]

Do you think the installation of bullet-proof glass in schools is an appropriate reaction to recent events? Or do you think it is a knee-jerk and wholly ridiculous reaction to recent events?

I'd say it's the latter. Still, it's telling that the people who are that freaked out will choose bullet-proof glass and not gun control.

So tell me how have 10,000 gun control laws would keep me, as a potential criminal, from getting a gun and going to these wonderful sitting duck zones and shooting up the place? Criminals are called criminals for a reason, and it is because they break the law(s) no matter what you do, or how many laws you put on the books. Nothing will stop a criminal from getting his/her hands on a gun if they wanted one. On the day that Sandy hook happened, 23 students in China where killed by a KNIFE welding man, oh, China has really tough gun control laws. So now what? DO we have to have tougher knife control laws as well?

Most of the school shooting massacres aren't done by people who you would obviously have suspected as being "criminals." Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. -- these aren't just gang members that have clear criminal connections. And many school shootings happen when someone takes a gun from their parent's house. Where are these people going to get a gun if, say, all guns were banned? It's not like they can just hop onto criminals.com/guns. Many of these incidents are spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than carefully planned assaults, and would likely not occur if immediate access to a firearm was not available.

[thegreekdog]

[quote="Metsfanmax"]Many of these incidents are spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than carefully planned assaults[/quote

I'm pretty sure Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. were not "spur-of-the moment decisions."

I'm also pretty sure at least the killer in Sandy Hook obtained his guns illegally (albeit easily).

[Anarkistsdream]

Many of these incidents are spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than carefully planned assaults[/quote

I'm pretty sure Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. were not "spur-of-the moment decisions."

I'm also pretty sure at least the killer in Sandy Hook obtained his guns illegally (albeit easily).

If you call taking from your mothers gun safe "illegal." Oh, taking them AFTER you put a bullet in her brain while she sleeps...

[Lootifer]

The thing is its not to do with gun laws. Its about the shear abundance of guns in the US. Which is completely to do with your culture (and only secondarily the law that allows that culture to be sustained).

The reason the US has so much homicide (massacres or otherwise) is because if someone flips out (either in the moment, or suffers some long term mental issues) they can easily obtain a gun (legally or illegally - bother are significantly easier in the US than other western countries).

Our cultures (NZ and US) are pretty similar and the main difference between us in terms of crime stats is we have faaar less homicide and gun related injuries (e.g. serious wounds) but higher lesser crime levels (by lesser I mean break-ins, and stuff like that). There's a pretty genuine causal reason for this.

Im not going to tell you what to do, thats for america to decide. However if it were me, and I wanted to maintain my 2nd amendment right, then my course of action (assuming I wanted to reduce gun-related deaths) would be put much stricter rules around gun safety:

-> A license that is like a drivers license - you need to show clear and solid evidence that you know how to adequately use a firearm safely (I am not sure but this could very well already be the case in some states; also I dont know how easy your guys driving license test is but ours is pretty hard these days, and it takes about 2-3 years to become fully qualified). There is no reason to not treat both driving and firearms with the same, strict, level of "regulation"
-> Forced protection against misuse and theft. Mandatory gun safes/locked gun storage. Rifles of any kind should not be allowed to be used for personal protection (I would apply this to self defense law too) and therefore must have permanent and secure storage (they should only be allowed to be used for hunting, shooting range fun, and rising up against corrupt and oppressive governments). Hand-guns and shotguns should have specific, and strict, requirements on their storage; I dont know how quick release safes/locks and things like that work, but mandate what ever is required to make it very difficult for little Jimmy and evil scumbag Jimmy to get their hands on them.

[Anarkistsdream]

The thing is its not to do with gun laws. Its about the shear abundance of guns in the US. Which is completely to do with your culture (and only secondarily the law that allows that culture to be sustained).

The reason the US has so much homicide (massacres or otherwise) is because if someone flips out (either in the moment, or suffers some long term mental issues) they can easily obtain a gun (legally or illegally - bother are significantly easier in the US than other western countries).

Our cultures (NZ and US) are pretty similar and the main difference between us in terms of crime stats is we have faaar less homicide and gun related injuries (e.g. serious wounds) but higher lesser crime levels (by lesser I mean break-ins, and stuff like that). There's a pretty genuine causal reason for this.

Im not going to tell you what to do, thats for america to decide. However if it were me, and I wanted to maintain my 2nd amendment right, then my course of action (assuming I wanted to reduce gun-related deaths) would be put much stricter rules around gun safety:

-> A license that is like a drivers license - you need to show clear and solid evidence that you know how to adequately use a firearm safely (I am not sure but this could very well already be the case in some states; also I dont know how easy your guys driving license test is but ours is pretty hard these days, and it takes about 2-3 years to become fully qualified). There is no reason to not treat both driving and firearms with the same, strict, level of "regulation"
-> Forced protection against misuse and theft. Mandatory gun safes/locked gun storage. Rifles of any kind should not be allowed to be used for personal protection (I would apply this to self defense law too) and therefore must have permanent and secure storage (they should only be allowed to be used for hunting, shooting range fun, and rising up against corrupt and oppressive governments). Hand-guns and shotguns should have specific, and strict, requirements on their storage; I dont know how quick release safes/locks and things like that work, but mandate what ever is required to make it very difficult for little Jimmy and evil scumbag Jimmy to get their hands on them.

As an EXTREMELY liberal, yet GUN LOVING American, I would do this in a heartbeat... My gun safe is rated to 2000 degrees fahrenheit and has both a combination lock and key lock - you must "unlock" combination so that it will spin... It is also bolted through the floor and weighs about 400 lbs.... I have no worries that people can get to my guns... It's also helpful, because our important documents and jewelry/antiques, can usually fit in there too...

As for a "license," I have my concealed carry, but agree that you should have mandatory classes to keep that license current.

However, I ALSO believe that you should have to take mandatory updates to keep your DRIVER'S license... And I believe anybody who receives welfare, Social Security, or any other form of government aid should be forced to take drug tests and their drivers test yearly...

[BigBallinStalin]

Loot, I don't see how any of those rules would address the issue, which mainly stems from illegal use of guns. People who are looking to shoot someone else aren't going to bother with licenses and classes.

If people were really interested in lowering crime rates, they'd want to legalize the drug trade. About 33%-50% of people within the prison system have drug-related crimes, half (or perhaps more) of all homicides are related to the drug trade. Just end it by ending the silly prohibition.

[Lootifer]

Loot, I don't see how any of those rules would address the issue, which mainly stems from illegal use of guns. People who are looking to shoot someone else aren't going to bother with licenses and classes.

If people were really interested in lowering crime rates, they'd want to legalize the drug trade. About 33%-50% of people within the prison system have drug-related crimes, half (or perhaps more) of all homicides are related to the drug trade. Just end it by ending the silly prohibition.

Yeah your plan would work too. I'm not against it. Though its not a politically practical one.

My suggestions were aimed at changing the culture (force people to really think about their gun ownership purchases). How many people buy a car without a license? (inb4 "How many people use/consume a car without a license?"). My suggestions should affect demand without inhibiting 2nd amendment rights.

[thegreekdog]

Many of these incidents are spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than carefully planned assaults[/quote

I'm pretty sure Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. were not "spur-of-the moment decisions."

I'm also pretty sure at least the killer in Sandy Hook obtained his guns illegally (albeit easily).

If you call taking from your mothers gun safe "illegal." Oh, taking them AFTER you put a bullet in her brain while she sleeps...

Right, he obtained them illegally. What's your point?

The more important issue is shootings that happen on a regular basis in our cities and those guns are also generally obtained illegally. Nevermind that the act of committing a crime with a gun in and of itself is illegal.

[mrswdk]

I would imagine anarkist's point is that the guns were procured legally.

[Anarkistsdream]

I would imagine anarkist's point is that the guns were procured legally.

Exactly... he lived with his mother. His mother bought them legally. He grew up shooting. It was one of the few ways he bonded with his mother.

[chang50]

I would imagine anarkist's point is that the guns were procured legally.

Exactly... he lived with his mother. His mother bought them legally. He grew up shooting. It was one of the few ways he bonded with his mother.

I can't imagine living in a society where that would be considered remotely normal or healthy.I used to play cards with my mother..

[notyou2]

Many of these incidents are spur-of-the-moment decisions rather than carefully planned assaults[/quote

I'm pretty sure Columbine, Sandy Hook, etc. were not "spur-of-the moment decisions."

I'm also pretty sure at least the killer in Sandy Hook obtained his guns illegally (albeit easily).

I expect you are right tgd and some planning did go into these events for these individuals, however, I expect they were not criminals until they started shooting people. I believe they all share one thing and that is mental illness.

[2dimes]

In my opinion those guns were stored illegally if any person who did not procure them legally had access to them, including the rightful owner's children, so I agree with Greek. Taking them from my mom's safe is illegal even if practically speaking kind of like littering is illegal. Few of us seem to have a problem with breaking a minor law such as that. More people feel the, "Don't kill people with your gun." Law might be one that should be followed.

Very often people are accidentally shot by someone playing with a fire arm they were certain was not loaded.

Someone related to my dad set his .22 rifle down on it's shoulder stock many many years ago. It went off and the round killed him.

I can't imagine living in a society where that would be considered remotely normal or healthy.I used to play cards with my mother.

My daughter and I both have a BB guns. Without coaching and before I owned one or ever shot any guns around her, she wanted one when she was around 8 to shoot targets. We don't do it often but have lots of fun when we do. I treat them like any other gun teaching our kids things like, always consider it to be loaded at all times and never point a weapon at anything you are not fully planning to shoot.

[mrswdk]

Does it really matter whether the killer obtained his gun illegally or not? I think the more pressing issue is that a succession of atheist GTA players whack jobs have fairly repeatedly been able to get access to guns and massacre numerous school kids with them.

'But he obtained the gun illegally' is kind of a moot point if he's already used it to paint his local primary school red.

[2dimes]

Right and that makes Taber is a good argument against gun control because we have it there yet...